Epstein's Tool Gossip

[jsackin]

So, most days we sit around the counter and talk to guys that come in the store about tools. This includes guys that use tools, guys that sell tools and guys that make tools, so we hear a lot about what's going on. (Some of it may even be true.) I thought this thread might be a good place to talk to you guys about what we hear around the store.

The latest story is about Vaughn, Estwing and Home Depot. There was a thread on this site where some guys noticed that in some Home Depot's Vaughn merchandise was on clearance. This was because (unbeknownst to Vaughn) Estwing had made a deal with Home Depot to exclusively carry Estwing. This affected about half of the country, so that is why some of you didn't see any clearance stuff. Vaughn found out about the deal in the same way you guys did. One of the reps happened to be in Home Depot one day and saw their stuff on the closeout table.

The Vaughn rep told me that Home Depot's best selling item is their superbar, which was made by Vaughn (USA). As you guys know, Estwing's prybars/superbars are all imported, so Vaughn considered this a blow to US manufacturing.

I should also note that we carry both Vaughn and Estwing merchandise so I'm not partial to either one. I think they are both great US manufacturers. I wish that Estwing would make their bars in this country, but I understand if some companies outsource certain parts of their line. They are a hammer company after all. I also shop at Home Depot, as there is one 3 blocks from my 100 year old house.

To give you an idea of how dedicated both Estwing and Vaughn are to their employees and this country, both companies, rather than firing people when things get slow, keep them on and have them make product that is not really needed. Estwing made a deal with Home Depot to sell their excess merchandise to them at cost. Vaughn labels their excess 2nd merchandise "Grayvik" and sells it to us.

Apparently, the other day Estwing called Home Depot to tell them that their cost of manufacturing had risen and they would have to raise their prices. Home Depot's answer....."No." So now Estwing is selling them their excess merchandise below cost. I haven't checked to see if HD has dropped their Estwing prices at all, but I would bet they won't.

http://store.harryepstein.com

 

[TheGrooveking]

Thanks for the info, Home Depot is in my opinion a company who will take advantage of it's vendors and it's customers which is pretty much inline with the Walmart strategy which my personal philosphy does not align. I will admit there are times I have to buy from both Home Depot and Walmart since near one of my homes there are very limited competition to them. I applaud companies who try to keep manufacturing in America, and keeping Americans employed which is a very noble thing to do.

TheGrooveking

 

[reptilezs]

S

Apparently, the other day Estwing called Home Depot to tell them that their cost of manufacturing had risen and they would have to raise their prices. Home Depot's answer....."No." So now Estwing is selling them their excess merchandise below cost. I haven't checked to see if HD has dropped their Estwing prices at all, but I would bet they won't.

http://store.harryepstein.com

keep that up and the wal mart effect will happen

 

[philw]

I have no love for Home Depot or Walmart type of companies. They don't care about the U.S., they only care about their profit margin.

Menards still advertises "made in the USA" sales in their flyers. Menards seems to be proud of carrying USA made goods even though obviously they have to carry everything to compete. At least it seems they try.

Wonder why our unemployment is high?

 

[zer0cell]

Hmmm... how can Estwing stay in business if their tools are sold to HD below what it costs them to make them? I'd rather pay a couple extra bucks for a hammer which will endure a lifetime of usage and beyond than to see them disappear completely. It's some of Estwing's non-blue grip tools are imported. They are trying to recoup costs from taking a loss or a small profit margin off their USA made tools. I just hope home depot keeps carrying them, and that Estwing can stay profitable and still make USA tools... I'd hate to see them totally disappear. It's also too bad Vaughan's tools are not available at HD anymore... at least you can still get the superbar (one of vaughan's best tools in my opinion) at lowes and northern tool which is convenient and the price is very reasonable.

 

[williaty]

Home Depot is Wal*Mao, that's why they're using the same tactics.

Wal*Mao, HD, Sams, etc, have been the biggest single changing force in the US economy in the last 30 years. You can blame it on the unions, on management, on the American consumer, whatever, but the real truth is that the start of the current situation, though not the finish, is the fault of Wal*Mao executives.

They were the first company with sufficient buying power and sufficient evilness to be able to strong arm entire industries into dropping wholesale prices at the expense of quality and survivability of the manufacturers. Wal*Mao developed the practice of doing to a US manufacturer and saying "If you don't sell through us, you lose access to 80% of your customer base since we've driven out all the smaller stores in most of rural America. Since you have to sell through us, we're going to tell you how much we're willing to pay. Oh? Can't make it for that little? We don't care. Find a way to cut the quality until you can stay in business.". Next year, or 5 years, or whatever the duration of the contract, the manufacturer is back across the bargaining table with Wal*Mao only now they're in even worse shape because their profits are smaller and they've lost their core customer base due to declining quality. Wal*Mao now says "We're going to raise our retail price on your product, but we're only willing to pay 80% of what we paid last contract. Since you'll now go out of business if you don't renew this agreement, you don't have any choice. Yes, we know you can't make it for that price but we'll help you establish a factory in China if you agree to sell at 70%, not that 80% I mentioned a moment ago."

That's how a lot of this trend started. Wal*Mao got big, got initially lower but fair prices through volume buying, then used that to drive out the competition all across America, then used their stranglehold on retail to force manufactures to reduce wholesale costs, and finally helped companies establish factories in China to drive wholesale costs down even farther. Once CEOs nation wide went "HOLY ****! That's BRILLIANT!" while looking at Wal*Mao, everyone jumped on the bandwagon.


BTW, remember Rubbermaid? I remember, maybe while I was in high-school or so, Rubbermade was a good brand. Good products, reliable, good customer service, commercials on TV, etc. Wal*Mao made them an offer they couldn't refuse. They refused anyway. Wal*Mao promptly bought a competitor, moved production to China, started dumping **** plastic products into the market, then eventually was able to force Rubbermaid into a deal. There's an entire town here in Ohio without jobs because of that **** move.

 

[Skin]

You can put down the big box stores but they only sell what people will buy. There is certainly a cheapening effect at play to reduce costs but thats because someone sat down and crunched some numbers then went to the manufacturer and said they need costs reduced in order to increase sales. Ultimately the consumers are just as much to blame in my opinion.

Theres a reason these places have become the giants they are with the current stock they have. Believe it or not they didnt start out selling nothing but cheapened junk and imported products, they were driven to them.

 

[dwm]

I would think that Estwing and Vaughan could just say "No" to Home Depot, for a few reasons.

One, they both have long histories of producing quality tools. When I want a construction hammer, I buy Estwing or Vaughan. Same as my father and grandfather. If my local retailer doesn't have it, I shop elsewhere. I'm certain I'm not alone. I won't buy a low-grade hammer I know I'm going to use a lot, and neither will any contractor that makes his/her living swinging a hammer. Let Home Depot sell ****; that battle was lost a long time ago and neither Estwing nor Vaughan has the penny-pinching homeowner crowd when a less-than-half-price crummy hammer is next to them on the rack. And they shouldn't need that crowd to survive. Snap-On, Festool and many others do just fine without that crowd. And in their areas, Estwing and Vaughan are at that level of quality. If you want to keep selling to Home Depot, at their price point, fine... but only if you're making a profit. If they don't need you to make a profit, and/or want you to destroy your good name, you don't need them.

That comes to the second reason: it's 2011... embrace direct online sales at reasonable prices and ditch the superstores that want to run/ruin your business. Cut a deal with FedEx instead of Home Depot. If the middleman is a jerk, cut him out of the equation. The market for quality tools will remain. Sell direct, sell to the reasonable online retailers, sell to McMaster-Carr, sell to ACE Hardware, etc.

As a general rule I don't think of Home Depot as a source of quality tools; I think of them as a source of emergency tools. It's rare that I consider an Estwing or a Vaughan an emergency tool. Why? Because it'll last darn near forever. I don't need to rush out and buy a replacement because they never break. If it gets stolen or lost, or the bulldozer runs over my California Framer, offer me the option of buying direct online and overnight shipping. I'll pay for it, as will most contractors. A hammer I can't count on day in and day out costs more than overnight shipping of a quality hammer.

It doesn't cost much to ship a rip hammer. And just as an example, an Estwing 20 oz. rip hammer would be very difficult to destroy, even for UPS. Mine is 30 years old, was used for years to make a living, and has been my go-to hammer ever since. It's still fully functional.

I ordered a set of 5 Estwing ball-peen hammers as a gift last year, and while they weren't packed very well, they arrived in perfect condition. UPS Ground shipping was around $12. I would think both Vaughan and Estwing could move a considerable amount of product via direct sales. Maybe enough to be able to tell Home Depot to shop elsewhere.

 

[zer0cell]

I think the direct sales idea is good... they might still need to sell in retail stores but it certainly could help with their profit margin. This is especially true if they have nice little promotions, gift sets and bonus merchandize included at various times of the year - your know, something to draw people in and create more fans of the brand. Channellock does have some online sales for example, I'm not sure how successful it is but I'm sure they getting something out of it...

 

[matthew]

The problem with direct sales is that it undercuts your bricks & mortar dealers. Which the don't care for, and thus don't push your product. And reality is a large portion of the market is walk-up sales, not ordering something online. Sure, tool affecianados will plan and search for a perfect hammer, but most guys - even tradesmen - will buy something more readily available. And they can't afford to lose that percentage of their business.

On the other hand, lots of businesses sell at list price on their websites, which is also bad because the consumer gets tagged with more than regular retail markup AND shipping. But at least it does allow a channel for purchasing items not stocked locally. It just means that part of the business doesn't grow as much as it should.

Realistically the business model used by these huge stores is basically to pressure manufacturers for lower costs. That is how at one level the market works. And ultimately it leads to penny pinching, removing features, offshoring, anything to reduce costs. What can I say - make retailers compete with more emphasis on quality, less on price.

 

[Muffduster]

Home Depot is Wal*Mao, that's why they're using the same tactics.

Wal*Mao, HD, Sams, etc, have been the biggest single changing force in the US economy in the last 30 years. You can blame it on the unions, on management, on the American consumer, whatever, but the real truth is that the start of the current situation, though not the finish, is the fault of Wal*Mao executives.

They were the first company with sufficient buying power and sufficient evilness to be able to strong arm entire industries into dropping wholesale prices at the expense of quality and survivability of the manufacturers. Wal*Mao developed the practice of doing to a US manufacturer and saying "If you don't sell through us, you lose access to 80% of your customer base since we've driven out all the smaller stores in most of rural America. Since you have to sell through us, we're going to tell you how much we're willing to pay. Oh? Can't make it for that little? We don't care. Find a way to cut the quality until you can stay in business.". Next year, or 5 years, or whatever the duration of the contract, the manufacturer is back across the bargaining table with Wal*Mao only now they're in even worse shape because their profits are smaller and they've lost their core customer base due to declining quality. Wal*Mao now says "We're going to raise our retail price on your product, but we're only willing to pay 80% of what we paid last contract. Since you'll now go out of business if you don't renew this agreement, you don't have any choice. Yes, we know you can't make it for that price but we'll help you establish a factory in China if you agree to sell at 70%, not that 80% I mentioned a moment ago."

That's how a lot of this trend started. Wal*Mao got big, got initially lower but fair prices through volume buying, then used that to drive out the competition all across America, then used their stranglehold on retail to force manufactures to reduce wholesale costs, and finally helped companies establish factories in China to drive wholesale costs down even farther. Once CEOs nation wide went "HOLY ****! That's BRILLIANT!" while looking at Wal*Mao, everyone jumped on the bandwagon.


BTW, remember Rubbermaid? I remember, maybe while I was in high-school or so, Rubbermade was a good brand. Good products, reliable, good customer service, commercials on TV, etc. Wal*Mao made them an offer they couldn't refuse. They refused anyway. Wal*Mao promptly bought a competitor, moved production to China, started dumping **** plastic products into the market, then eventually was able to force Rubbermaid into a deal. There's an entire town here in Ohio without jobs because of that **** move.

After all of that, and to think, you just don't have your facts straight. Epic.

 

[Borrego]

With the recent introduction into Walmart, let's hope Channel Lock does not ***** its name or quality to the demands of Walmart management. Ever.

 

[Skin]

With the recent introduction into Walmart, let's hope Channel Lock does not ***** its name or quality to the demands of Walmart management. Ever.

Depends how much interest Walmart draws. If it becomes their primary sales outlet for the majority of sales they will heed to some requests.

However with pliers i think there is enough import options that walmart wouldnt bother trying to strong arm channellock they'd just dump them.

 

[KTMGuy]

I wonder what the specifics of Estwing's deal with HD was? Maybe they didn't leave enough meat on the bone for themselves because they were trying to undercut Vaughn?

I happened to be in a Home Depot yesterday and walked out with four Vaughn hammers that were on clearance. I'll shop at Home Depot, Wal-Mart and Lowes but will be careful of what I buy...this means taking twice as long to shop and read where each product was made. Maybe the stores keep up with what gets bought in regards to COO and maybe they don't.

The Estwing/Vaughn/HD story makes me wonder if the American Made tool industry would be better off with an industry 'group' of sorts. Kindof like the AMA (American Motorcyclists Assoc.) for motorcyclists...the AMA fights, among other things, the 'legal' side of the battle for motorcyclists. I believe the steel and aluminum industries in America have these associations as well.

It might allow American companies to team up and 'fight' for shelf space as well as fight other companies that aren't 'playing by the rules'.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Well, the average Chinese built, quality lowered, pot metal hammer is going to be good enough for the throes of folks who buy their tools at Wal-Mart for the occasional project. Im doing projects ALL the time. Sometimes professionally and sometimes as a weekend warrior. I want a hammer, or tape measure, etc. to be comfortable and last. I dont want to have to go get a new hammer (especially at Wally's on everyone else's grocery day) in the middle of my project. Helps to have two hammers around somtimes too.

 

[dwm]

I think the direct sales argument can go either way. I fully realize that a lot of tool sales, especially for the homeowner, are in brick and mortar stores. However, I honestly don't know how many of those people will choose a Vaughan or Estwing hammer if those hammers are priced at a point where the producers are still making a profit, if there's a much cheaper option on the same rack.

What I do know is that contractors shop elsewhere for the most part. I'm not a contractor, but my father was for his whole working life. And I'm in Home Depot and Lowe's a lot, because they're both close to my home (less than 2 miles). Just looking at the parking lot, I know that their traffic is not contractors; very few pickup trucks or work vans in the lot, ever. The line at the contractor desk is almost always empty (I use that line frequently for that reason).

The local lumber yards, family-owned, are the opposite story. I get funny looks when I pull up there in the MINI Cooper. The lot and yard are full of contractors' pickup trucks.

What I do know is that brick-and-mortar carries a lot of overhead. We've seen some big brick-and-mortar stores completely run out of business by online retail. Borders Books is a recent (and not recent) example. I understand that books aren't tools, but... I buy a large percentage of my hand tools online. I also buy almost all of my supplies online. 15 years ago I had a printed McMaster-Carr catalog that I'd order from. 10 years ago, my UPS driver told me I was the only residential customer on his route that regularly received items from McMaster-Carr. I told him that was biased because he had the industrial route in the area. 5 years ago I asked him if I was still the only residential McMaster-Carr customer on his route. He said, "No, I've got about 20 now."

One of the consequences of the big box stores running the real (ACO and some others don't count) small hardware stores out of town: I've no choice but to order online. But I've never had a complaint about ordering from McMaster-Carr; their shipping is fast and cheap. Almost as cheap as the gas to get to Home Depot and back in a pickup truck. Add in the cost of my time, and McMaster-Carr is considerably cheaper. I've never received junk-grade stuff from them. They also keep track of my order history, which makes it easy to re-order things. I can also save orders for later purchase, which makes it easy to plan ahead.

I work in automotive electronics. I order components and tools from Digi-Key and Mouser on a very regular basis, for both work and home use. I've never been able to get this kind of stuff locally; brick-and-mortar stores for these items disappeared long ago. Mouser lets me save projects by name, so I can order parts to duplicate a project with a few mouse clicks. Digi-Key has something similar though not as hobbyist-friendly.

I suspect the key to this working for these businesses is that there isn't a local option. I don't know if Estwing and Vaughan or others could just eliminate the local option and land on the upside. But I see little harm in offering it as a competing option if they don't price the good retailers out of the market. There are stores I shop at locally for tools because they're good to me, the pricing is reasonable and they're not looking to run the good product out of their stores. Performance Line Tool in Pontiac, MI is one of them. JD Industrial Supply in Dexter, MI is another one. There are plenty of others.

 

[Davefr]

Realistically the business model used by these huge stores is basically to pressure manufacturers for lower costs. That is how at one level the market works. And ultimately it leads to penny pinching, removing features, offshoring, anything to reduce costs. What can I say - make retailers compete with more emphasis on quality, less on price.

These retailers are doing this because the vast majority of consumers only care about price points. Quality is not the primary purchasing criteria in the vast number of cases.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

These retailers are doing this because the vast majority of consumers only care about price points. Quality is not the primary purchasing criteria in the vast number of cases.

Ding Ding, yes folks, we have a winner here......

 

[dodge610]

I for one will not deal with HD or Wally World unless i absolutely have too. There is a menards 2 minutes from work. If I need anything I wait till I get off work run down and get what i need. Plus Menards has the Store credit rebates that you can use in the store they at least try to care for the public and keep the american way of life afloat.

 

[woody 73]

I do not know what the answer is but when I go to every tool store on planet Earth , I tend to make small talk to other customers. What I am finding is this ; over 90% of the buying public have either no clue where the tool is made or they just want to spend the least amount as possible. Now don't misunderstand me but the other 10% or less of people (mostly Men) will be looking for the good grade of tools that are made in the USA.

 

[TheGrooveking]

After all of that, and to think, you just don't have your facts straight. Epic.

For inquiring minds what facts are not straight?

TheGrooveking

 

[TheGrooveking]

Ding Ding, yes folks, we have a winner here......

Wrong, the quality, or acceptable level of quality is what does this. If the items bought didn't meet the requirements of the job they are being bought to do people would return and end up buying the American made equivalent. So you need to look deeper into it, the basis is availability and secondly one of the most basic urges/drivers for all humans is to save money. So if basically there are no stores locally around you that sell made in the US products you are limited to what is available.

Kind of like every food joint only sold ham sandwiches, and you wanted a steak, guess what unless you have a way getting a steak, your next meal will be a ham sandwich. Controlling the market by controlling selection is a basic fundamental of business, look at any market leader who has dominance, you'll see this.

TheGrooveking

 

[williaty]

Don't forget the influence of advertising. It is utterly astonishing how heavily swayed most humans are by advertising. People with money enough to buy lots of TV time can pretty much make the masses want anything they feel like selling that year. Once the desire is established, the only the the retailers can do is make the masses buy at their store rather than the competitor. The only real way they can do that in a 30 second TV spot on in a half-page glossy is to come up with simple, clear, repetitive messages. It's very difficult to convey the concept of ongoing customer service, stability and predictability of models and repair parts, etc in such media. It takes a fair amount of research and customer education to understand what specs matter, what features matter, what actually separates a high quality item from a low quality item. However "A penny cheaper than the other guy" is easy to do and so it gets done. The advertisers and the retailers have created the culture of going for the cheaper thing at the expense of quality, and the masses were only too willing to follow along.

 

[Jawn]

With the recent introduction into Walmart, let's hope Channel Lock does not ***** its name or quality to the demands of Walmart management. Ever.

Recent? Wal-mart has carried Channellock for years. I bought my #440 pliers there about 6-7 years ago. They used to carry Estwing too... I'm still kicking myself for not picking up a hammer or two when they were on clearance.

 

[matthew]

Wrong, the quality, or acceptable level of quality is what does this. If the items bought didn't meet the requirements of the job they are being bought to do people would return and end up buying the American made equivalent. So you need to look deeper into it, the basis is availability and secondly one of the most basic urges/drivers for all humans is to save money. So if basically there are no stores locally around you that sell made in the US products you are limited to what is available.

Two other points to add:
1) if the consumer doesn't know better, why spend more? A little education in what makes good tools, and a few opportunities to feel and handle and try out the tools - not keep them locked in plastic packaging, as happens all too often - and the consumers choice changes at least a bit.
2) And if the consumer doesn't get a product that meets the required level of quality, who do they blame? The manufacturer for building a substandard product, of course. Not the people who decided they could sell it, please supply it, just because ithere's a market. And certainly not their own wishful thinking in thinking they can have quality for such a knocked down price. Or for that matter the media that makes them believe that...

 

[FJF]

To give you an idea of how dedicated both Estwing and Vaughn are to their employees and this country, both companies, rather than firing people when things get slow, keep them on and have them make product that is not really needed. Estwing made a deal with Home Depot to sell their excess merchandise to them at cost. Vaughn labels their excess 2nd merchandise "Grayvik" and sells it to us.

I lack the words to really express how touched I am by this. From now on, I will make an effort to seek out and buy both companies products. Going to Lowes tomorrow to see what I can find, then maybe order a few tools, depending on what's there.

 

[toolmaker1]

Recent? Wal-mart has carried Channellock for years. I bought my #440 pliers there about 6-7 years ago. They used to carry Estwing too... I'm still kicking myself for not picking up a hammer or two when they were on clearance.

Yes they did sell them years ago but they stopped carrying them for several years and now they are back.

 

[route246]

We, on this board probably make up less than 1/10 of 1-percent of the buying population who even has awareness of COO. The great vast majority of customers don't care and are not even aware of this issue. This is the sad reality of today's world.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

For inquiring minds what facts are not straight?

TheGrooveking

Note that Muffduster is from Arkansas. He was probably there when the deal was done. He'll have the straight dope on who did what to whom.

I have a love/hate relationship with walmart.

On the plus side, before they built one in our county, you couldn't buy 50% of the stuff they sell without driving outside the county. That sucked. And, they really only ran a few businesses out of town. A grocery store and a couple of gun stores.

On the minus side? They do absolutely hammer on their suppliers to go lower lower lower. They could teach the mafia a thing or two about strong arm negotiation tactics. The answer to manufacturers is quite simple. Don't sell to them under any circumstances.

I don't think Walmart chases these guys down. Quite the opposite. I think the sales team gets in the company jet, flies down to Arkansas and thinks they are going to get rich selling to Walmart. Five years later, they've sold the corporate jet and fired the sales team along with most of the rest of their staff and moved to Malasia. Is that Walmart's fault? Really? Maybe 10% is my take. 90% is the overpaid CEO that thought it was so important to sell to walmart that he did a deal with the Devil.

The Rubbermaid story seems to be a different issue. We'll let Muffduster clear that up for us.


Phil

 

[slipjointed]

We, on this board probably make up less than 1/10 of 1-percent of the buying population who even has awareness of COO. The great vast majority of customers don't care and are not even aware of this issue. This is the sad reality of today's world.

They know... they've just been beaten into submission by the torrent of import goods, or plain don't care.

The fathers of the tool buying public were tool buyers themselves, and 50 years ago you had better bet that they were proud and loud about buying american.

Those fathers taught their children not to buy cheap Japanese (or Chinese depending on era) junk, and the value of American made goods.

The children chose to ignore their father's advice, and go for the cheapest garbage they could possibly buy, so they'd have more money to spend on overpriced chain resturant food and $17 movie tickets.

 

[route246]

$17 movie tickets are nothing. $5 cups of coffee are what is truly amazing.

They know... they've just been beaten into submission by the torrent of import goods, or plain don't care.

The fathers of the tool buying public were tool buyers themselves, and 50 years ago you had better bet that they were proud and loud about buying american.

Those fathers taught their children not to buy cheap Japanese (or Chinese depending on era) junk, and the value of American made goods.

The children chose to ignore their father's advice, and go for the cheapest garbage they could possibly buy, so they'd have more money to spend on overpriced chain resturant food and $17 movie tickets.

 

[Skin]

$5 is nothing. Throw some froth, cream, and cinnamon on there and its $8

 

[Davefr]

On the minus side? They do absolutely hammer on their suppliers to go lower lower lower. They could teach the mafia a thing or two about strong arm negotiation tactics. The answer to manufacturers is quite simple. Don't sell to them under any circumstances.

This is B.S. I've dealt with Wal Mart corporate for a Fortune 50 electronics corporation.

They are just like any other retailer. They simply want to maximize sale velocity per shelf space for their consumers.

If your business model support this then great. If not then walk away.

It's the consumer that ultimately drives what retailer's stock, what the price points are, what the quality level is and where the country or origin ends up being.

If the consumer demands quality over price, made in the USA and opens up their wallets appropriately then the retailers will be glad to respond assuming there's sale velocity.

The reality is that 99.98% of consumer simply want low price points and the retailers are simply trying to respond.

 

[FJF]

$5 is nothing. Throw some froth, cream, and cinnamon on there and its $8

A friend in NYC on business wanted to buy a pack of cigs - $22.

 

[Danglerb]

These retailers are doing this because the vast majority of consumers only care about price points. Quality is not the primary purchasing criteria in the vast number of cases.

Consumers rarely have a reliable way to judge quality, and sellers are very savvy in fooling consumers on quality as well as other issues. I can't think of many products where a consumer can be certain of quality. We get the silly oats argument here, and its just not an oats world anymore.

 

[Coach James]

I lack the words to really express how touched I am by this. From now on, I will make an effort to seek out and buy both companies products. Going to Lowes tomorrow to see what I can find, then maybe order a few tools, depending on what's there.

Our Lowes does not carry a single USA made hammer. They have no
Vaughn or Estwing hammers or prybars. Everything is Bostich, Task Force or Plumb.

Our Tru Value carries Grayvik and Estwing. I bought a Grayvik hatchet last month and told the manager I bought it there because it was made in the USA. I also told him I buy my punches and prybars there because they carry Enderes.

Most folks I know pay no attention to COO. They look at several items, think "I don't want to pay that much" and buy one of the cheaper items which is usually China/Taiwan and figure it will be good enough for their job. A lot of people probably think Stanley is still a USA made company when they see it in WalMart.

Coach

 

[FJF]

I lack the words to really express how touched I am by this. From now on, I will make an effort to seek out and buy both companies products. Going to Lowes tomorrow to see what I can find, then maybe order a few tools, depending on what's there.

Just to say that I wasn't full of **** when I posted this, I purchased 3 Vaughan hammers locally, ordered another, and also ordered an Estwing ball pein and two Vaughan pry bars. I've talked about the two companies with almost everyone I know and pointed out what they did when times were rough.

 

[jsackin]

So, another trend that I've noticed in USA manufacturing is that on certain items, we can actually buy the US version cheaper than the import. This was the case for our sledgehammers, which we were buying from Kulkoni and Pony. Kulkoni's are made in Mexico and Pony's are made in China. The US version made by Barco is actually cheaper for us to buy then the other two.
This was the same for their wrecking bars as well. Some of CS Osborne's gardening tools are much less than their chinese counterparts, and we've recently come across a 100% US made tape measure that is not much more than a Lufkin.

I was in Home Depot the other day and saw they had a box of 3/8" drive ratchets on sale for .98 cents a piece. Now, obviously US manufacturers aren't going to try to compete with that, and they shouldn't, but as quality improves overseas, prices will go up. As oil rises, prices will go up, and as workers start demanding better pay in China, prices will go up. There will always be a market for the cheap junk, but I think the price playing field for good quality products is going to level out a bit in the next 5 to 10 years.

 

[Danglerb]

A lot of contractors don't buy quality hand tools because they have a very high theft/loss rate, and the better the tool the faster they get lost.

 

[jsackin]

We've also heard from Wright that they are replacing the Cougar economy line that they've carried for awhile with an imported line. I don't think this is as bad as it sounds, as they did not make any of the cougar sets. I would imagine everything that has Wrights name on it will still be USA.

Jori

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