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Terry D

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They absolutely do NOT have any ability to do this. A smart meter is still just a meter, it can't turn anything on or off. They do basically eliminate the need for someone to go around and read meters.

Some utilities do have load shed programs. Around here the co-ops all do it with water heaters. It takes an additional switch wired to the water heater.

I'm not a lineman but I know several. The local guy still has to go out to pull meters for no payment.
That is how it is here also. They can read the meter and know when it has no power. When I first became licensed, I would call every time when I removed one, now days I don't even call anymore unless it is a bank of them. The still have to come out and put the plastic tabs on the back so it doesn't make contact when getting your power shut off
 
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jeepxj

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They absolutely do NOT have any ability to do this. A smart meter is still just a meter, it can't turn anything on or off. They do basically eliminate the need for someone to go around and read meters.

Some utilities do have load shed programs. Around here the co-ops all do it with water heaters. It takes an additional switch wired to the water heater.

I'm not a lineman but I know several. The local guy still has to go out to pull meters for no payment.


bottom of page 6:
Service Switch (provide remote controllable disconnection and reconnection of electrical service for residential applications)
 

jeepxj

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May be the case for the brand of SMART meters your PoCo uses however the ones ours uses most definitely can shutoff the power. Ive seen them do it remotely for non-payment. No one has to come out to the house to pull the meter.

As to load shesding, that is not possible.

they had a program here way back in the day. would connect to your AC unit low voltage circuit. they could load shed that way.

example program:
 

Fly YX

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To disconnect your service I wouldn’t thank the meter socket would have enough space For the switch gear? Must be a separate enclosure for that.
 

bbbarracuda

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The switch to disconnect service is the meter itself. At least the in system I'm familiar with.
 

Fly YX

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The switch to disconnect service is the meter itself. At least the in system I'm familiar with.
Is it automatic or manual? When I did it back in the early 2000 before all this we just pull the meter then put a plastic cover over the hole where the meter was.
 

jeepxj

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its all built into the meter. motorized disconnect. no separate device required. can take any analog meter socket and make a disconnect out of it.
 

jeepxj

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Is it automatic or manual? When I did it back in the early 2000 before all this we just pull the meter then put a plastic cover over the hole where the meter was.
automatic by the power company remotely.

i posted a link to the spec sheet above
 

wyliesdiesels

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Modesto, CA
they had a program here way back in the day. would connect to your AC unit low voltage circuit. they could load shed that way.

example program:
My PoCo has that program as well. but it isnt tied to the meter. its a separate box that is controlled wirelessly and it connects in series with the thermostat control wires. has no connection to the watt hour meter.
To disconnect your service I wouldn’t thank the meter socket would have enough space For the switch gear? Must be a separate enclosure for that.
negative. the disconnect is built into the meter. no separate enclosure needed. not even sure why you mentioned switch gear. residential services under 400a here do not have switch gear. the larger residences (very rare) and commercial and industrial have CT metering and switch gear. so the smart meters on those do not have remote shut off capabilities..
 

Fly YX

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My PoCo has that program as well. but it isnt tied to the meter. its a separate box that is controlled wirelessly and it connects in series with the thermostat control wires. has no connection to the watt hour meter.

negative. the disconnect is built into the meter. no separate enclosure needed. not even sure why you mentioned switch gear. residential services under 400a here do not have switch gear. the larger residences (very rare) and commercial and industrial have CT metering and switch gear. so the smart meters on those do not have remote shut off capabilities..
Yes my house in tn. is 400a has CT’s that go to the meter. I have not done any residential in a longtime. Maybe 20 years or so.
 
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rabidsquirrel

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Smart meters allow the utility company to shutdown the power to your address while continuing to provide power to other address in you area.

While technically that does reduce power consumption, that's not what you said in your post.

Smart meters allow the Utility company to reduce your power, and even shut it off completely, while still supplying full power to everyone else (or to those that 'matter' more than you do).

So how is it that they 'reduce' your available power with a smart meter?
 

jeepxj

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While technically that does reduce power consumption, that's not what you said in your post.



So how is it that they 'reduce' your available power with a smart meter?

maybe they can drop one leg off lol. jk. /s
 

83VillageRepair

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Smart meters allow the Utility company to reduce your power, and even shut it off completely, while still supplying full power to everyone else (or to those that 'matter' more than you do).
That is not how rotating outages are done. An entire circuit out of a substation is turned off for a specified period of time and then turned back on. It is highly regulated. No one is just randomly switching off individual loads.
 

FMB4

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That is not how rotating outages are done. An entire circuit out of a substation is turned off for a specified period of time and then turned back on. It is highly regulated. No one is just randomly switching off individual loads.
Sorry, but you are wrong. Again, Smart meters allow the Utility Co. to cut the power to a single dwelling residence. That's just part of what Smart meters are all about. You might have no power while the residence next to you has power. This is especially true if one or more people in the residence next to you have a life threatening dependence on electrical power.
 

83VillageRepair

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Sorry, but you are wrong. Again, Smart meters allow the Utility Co. to cut the power to a single dwelling residence. That's just part of what Smart meters are all about. You might have no power while the residence next to you has power. This is especially true if one or more people in the residence next to you have a life threatening dependence on electrical power.
Load Shed plans are highly regulated and on not done on an individual house basis. Smart meters with a disconnect collar are used to disconnect individual houses for non payment and usually only on 200Amp single phase loads. This is why they are not used for rolling outages because only the little insignificant loads would be shed. List of people with medical issues are kept to help expedite repairs in an outage situation but they are not exempt from load shed because it is done on a feeder basis.

Smart meters can also be used to shed devices like AC and Hot water heaters with an optional module but this is seldom done. Under these programs you opt in to allow the power company to shed your device and you pay a little less for power year round.
 
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HamAndEggs

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Sorry, but you are wrong. Again, Smart meters allow the Utility Co. to cut the power to a single dwelling residence. That's just part of what Smart meters are all about. You might have no power while the residence next to you has power. This is especially true if one or more people in the residence next to you have a life threatening dependence on electrical power.

Nowhere where I signed up for electric did they ask if I had a dependence on power...

I don't doubt that what you are saying is technically possible, and honestly I think it would be an awesome idea if they could do that, but I would bet $1000 they don't have a system like that in place in all but a few edge cases (if at all)
 

jeepxj

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Nowhere where I signed up for electric did they ask if I had a dependence on power...

I don't doubt that what you are saying is technically possible, and honestly I think it would be an awesome idea if they could do that, but I would bet $1000 they don't have a system like that in place in all but a few edge cases (if at all)

they aint gona put that on every customer sign up. Its a seperate form
here is an example:
 

83VillageRepair

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Well then maybe I stand corrected!
You are both right partially. There is a list that each utility keeps of customers with a life saving power need. It is used to prioritize outage restoral during storms (Triage) and to inform customers that cannot be restored to evacuate. It can not be used to keep an individual house on during rolling mandated outages because they are done on a circuit basis to shed MegaWatts of load as required not Watts of load to keep the grid from collapsing.
 
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HamAndEggs

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I think it would be fantastic if they could load shed per house

For example between 10am and 6PM I'm producing around 13-14kw of solar power, and only using 5kw at most. Meaning I'm 7kw+ net positive to the grid. Makes no sense to cut me

During the night, they could cut me if they want as I have an NG generator and it would not affect me, but an elderly person down the road could have a lot less hassle if their lights were on
 

83VillageRepair

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I think it would be fantastic if they could load shed per house

For example between 10am and 6PM I'm producing around 13-14kw of solar power, and only using 5kw at most. Meaning I'm 7kw+ net positive to the grid. Makes no sense to cut me

During the night, they could cut me if they want as I have an NG generator and it would not affect me, but an elderly person down the road could have a lot less hassle if their lights were on
That is possible and I believe some utilities allow mostly businesses to sign up as curtailable customers and they get a better rate if they allow themselves to be shed when the grid is constrained. But during emergency situations like the Feb storm when the grid is in immediate danger of collapse, large pre-determined blocks of power are shed.

Since you are in Texas I would download the Ercot app, which will give you plenty of warning.
 
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HamAndEggs

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That is possible and I believe some utilities allow mostly businesses to sign up as curtailable customers and they get a better rate if they allow themselves to be shed when the grid is constrained.

Yeah, thats how we had our outages!

Large NG gas supply companies WHO SUPPLIED POWER GENERATON TO THE GRID were signed up for that program...

I don't really care if there is an outage anymore, it takes my generator 15 seconds to go from an outage to generator power, and everything electronic on the house is fed by a 30a UPS
 

83VillageRepair

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Yeah, thats how we had our outages!

Large NG gas supply companies WHO SUPPLIED POWER GENERATON TO THE GRID were signed up for that program...

I don't really care if there is an outage anymore, it takes my generator 15 seconds to go from an outage to generator power, and everything electronic on the house is fed by a 30a UPS
Are you are on a firm fixed price for Natural Gas because it spiked just as high as power during URI
 

83VillageRepair

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Yep, fixed price over here luckily
You are all set then. My future plan is batteries and solar so it can remain on during an outage by switching to off grid mode. But I do not have access to natural gas. My power needs are small and I am used to conservation so I can get by with relatively small backup power. The desire to run Air Conditioning really dictates back up generation size in this area while you can use propane, wood etc... for heat.

Your system looks really well thought out and your solar install looks good.
 
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HamAndEggs

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Yeah, sometimes I wonder if I should have put the money towards batteries. My main problem with batteries is just the amount I'd need to even get near the generator capacity, and I'd need a lot to sustain night time AC use. I'm looking at around $45,000 in batteries to sustain my usual lifestyle (And if I'm spending anywhere over $10K, then my lifestyle needs to not change!)


Thanks, the solar looks even better now I've removed the gap where the furnace stack used to be, I've moved it up to the top

2021-08-28-13-05-58.jpg

I have another 12 panels on the garage too
 

todd_fuller

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I read that the reason you cannot fake out a grid tie inverter with a generator is because you’d have no place to sink any extra production. You’d blow up your generator as it got backfed with whatever PV power you couldn’t shed.

IMHO, battery storage is still too expensive unless you have a draconian power metering system where you can depeak and/or sell power back into the grid for the most favorable rates.
 

jeepxj

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Yeah, sometimes I wonder if I should have put the money towards batteries. My main problem with batteries is just the amount I'd need to even get near the generator capacity, and I'd need a lot to sustain night time AC use. I'm looking at around $45,000 in batteries to sustain my usual lifestyle (And if I'm spending anywhere over $10K, then my lifestyle needs to not change!)


Thanks, the solar looks even better now I've removed the gap where the furnace stack used to be, I've moved it up to the top

2021-08-28-13-05-58.jpg

I have another 12 panels on the garage too


10KWh 48V 200Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery Solar Energy Storage System​

Price for 1 Each: $3,870.00

 
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HamAndEggs

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you burning 50kwh a night on AC?

Solar gets pretty low around 7pm, and picks up around 8am based on today's sun. Thats 14 hours of "dark"

If its a cloudy day the next day, you're boned unless you have a lot of extra capacity

Assume 6 hours of AC thats 26kwh, and I have around 1kw of always on load at the higher end, so that's around 40kwh

A Tesla power wall has just 13.5kWh of capacity. So that's three just to make it to the next day assuming the next day is sunny. If the next day is not sunny, I'm done
 
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HamAndEggs

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10KWh 48V 200Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery Solar Energy Storage System​

Price for 1 Each: $3,870.00


These are not AC Coupled, so would not work for me since I have AC Microinverters. That price also doesn't include chargers

So even just on storage I'd need to spend $15K on the minimum, and that doesn't even include charge controllers. Looks like they can only output 3kw total, so that gives me just 12kw of output for that $15K also, less than half my generator and not enough for what I want

I'd love to go all battery, but they just don't make sense

And then of course they will only last a certain number of cycles and years. A Mitsubishi engine in my generator will last a very long time and can be fixed

Can't really "fix" a battery while staying code complaint
 

jeepxj

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Solar gets pretty low around 7pm, and picks up around 8am based on today's sun. Thats 14 hours of "dark"

If its a cloudy day the next day, you're boned unless you have a lot of extra capacity

Assume 6 hours of AC thats 26kwh, and I have around 1kw of always on load at the higher end, so that's around 40kwh

A Tesla power wall has just 13.5kWh of capacity. So that's three just to make it to the next day assuming the next day is sunny. If the next day is not sunny, I'm done

you can't set it to pick-up from the grid if solar isn't producing/weather api says cloudy?
 

jeepxj

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These are not AC Coupled, so would not work for me since I have AC Microinverters. That price also doesn't include chargers

So even just on storage I'd need to spend $15K on the minimum, and that doesn't even include charge controllers. Looks like they can only output 3kw total, so that gives me just 12kw of output for that $15K also, less than half my generator and not enough for what I want

I'd love to go all battery, but they just don't make sense

And then of course they will only last a certain number of cycles and years. A Mitsubishi engine in my generator will last a very long time and can be fixed

Can't really "fix" a battery while staying code complaint

electric heat?

yea i get it. still really early in long term battery durability compared to a properly maintained generator.
 
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HamAndEggs

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electric heat?

yea i get it. still really early in long term battery durability compared to a properly maintained generator.

I think the real key is bi-directional car charging. You can get a 100kwh Tesla right now, if I had two of them I'd have 200kwh of storage available

No electric heat, just a lot of AC and a lot of IT gear, and I refuse to have a critical loads panel
 

jeepxj

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I think the real key is bi-directional car charging. You can get a 100kwh Tesla right now, if I had two of them I'd have 200kwh of storage available

No electric heat, just a lot of AC and a lot of IT gear, and I refuse to have a critical loads panel

I hear ya on that. really excited for the ford lightning. if that really does work like they say at 155kwh usable that is more than enough to carry my pig of a house for a day and change in 90+ weather.
 
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