Ethanol and its effects?
- Thread starter ducatiti
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JonnyMac
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Brazil is a dual fuel economy. There is gasoline in Brazil, as well as pure ethanol. It is easy for Brazil, though, as they have tons of sugar cane, which is MUCH more effective at producting ethanol than corn. Regardless, they by all means have gasoline. Here's a shot of the pump. A is for the alcohol, G is for the gasoline.
But the ethanol has lots of problems, as well. Deposits on valves are a HUGE concern. When E85 started becoming more common here, I was doing engine development at Ford, and it went from the mindset of "CAFE credit" to "we have to design for this." The valves are not well lubricated, the fuel will be drawn between the valve seat and the cylinder head through capillary action, where it will initiate corrosion and can eventually push out the valve seat. We had to use inconel valves and Brico (trademark name, can't recall the alloy) seats to make it live. And the PCV system had to be GREATLY enhanced. If you are even in a junkyard, look at the cam covers from the later 4.6L 2V's compared to the earlier ones to see the difference.
There are some huge issues with ethanol if the vehicle is not desgined for it. It absolutely must be. But if it is, ethanol can be great......especially for those of us who love turbos108 effective octane rating, yee-ha!
Have a google as to where all ford rangers, including brazil spec, were developed ;o)
The gasoline, non ethanol, is a legacy product and is used for starter tanks and older vehicles.. For modern vehicles the calibration activates straight gasoline below 5degsC from memory as it doesn't atomize well below those temps.
The ranger petrol engine has nothing additional on it other than an added fuel system for the starter tank, its identical to the ones sold in non e100 markets...
Were you based in Dearborn?
Pstychologist
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The trouble is, Jeremy, that we've not been under our support price for years. I'll leave it there unless you want to discuss this in private messages but it's pretty clear you don't actually know what's been happening with corn sales/prices. Thanks for your explanation, though.
brianh
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How did you have a burnt valve on a chainsaw?
Pstychologist
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One thing you aren't factoring in is that the farmer isn't keeping any of that, as subsidies went up, the input providers simply charged more. What really happens is that subsidy prices keep prices higher, not lower, as farmers don't have to sell when they have a glut, they can hang on longer and ride out the price because when they stop selling, demand catches up. What it's done is help govern the markets, not lower to price. But back to tool stuff so we don't upset anyone. I'm happy to PM with you if you want to keep discussing.
Pstychologist
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Not much is simple or straight forward when you are talking economics. This new farm bill is promising because it actually gives a security net without just giving money away. Subsidies haven't been the boon to farmers that people think, but they do help moderate/govern the markets. Plus, like food stamps, money spent in this sector is very powerful in the economy as a whole and everyone benefits as the economy does better. Look forward to your message.
Pstychologist
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Oh, and for the public consumption, the new farm bill is mostly about giving insurance companies more government money directly. Farmers are protected because we can insure up to a certain level of what we have to prove we can actually grow for a price that was available in the last marketing year. So if either the price drops a lot or we don't get as much crop as usual (or both), we can get a check from the insurance company for the difference. If it gets really low, there's a government direct payment that comes in too, but the price has to drop enough that it's likely that otherwise many of the farmers would be going broke and bailing on bank loans. So it's about protecting the banks, not the farmers. It's all about following the money.
Is aluminum especially vulnerable to ethanol corrosion? I have a lot of older equipment with cast iron carbs and have never had problem there but I did lose a Honda carb bowl to corrosion that I assume wouldn't have happened with 100% gasoline.
Pstychologist
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Wow, check this out! http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2012/propulsion_materials/pm039_pawel_2012_o.pdf
I didn't check into the source much but there are some incredible pictures of different blends of ethanol and aluminum destruction.
I didn't check into the source much but there are some incredible pictures of different blends of ethanol and aluminum destruction.
Wow is right. A $900K study to determine what so many of us have experience firsthand.
finn
Well-known member
Did you bother to read and understand the presentation?
Generally there was little or no corrosion with moderate levels of ethanol; increasing temperature of fuels with extremely high ethanol levels promotes corrosion, but look at the temperatures where corrosion is evident; increasing water concentration mitigates corrosion.
Generally there was little or no corrosion with moderate levels of ethanol; increasing temperature of fuels with extremely high ethanol levels promotes corrosion, but look at the temperatures where corrosion is evident; increasing water concentration mitigates corrosion.
I didn't read this whole thread so if I am repeating something, please bear with me.
If you dig deep enough, you will find that EPA actually say's that E85 will drop your mpg by over 20 percent!!! I want to say right at a 22 percent drop!!
And it has to be burned in FFV's so the computer can handle it!!!!
pdq67
If you dig deep enough, you will find that EPA actually say's that E85 will drop your mpg by over 20 percent!!! I want to say right at a 22 percent drop!!
And it has to be burned in FFV's so the computer can handle it!!!!
pdq67
Most of my gas tanks are coated with POR15 (Redkote works well also), this particular one is clean as a whistle. It's just varnish and gum from the **** fuel. The filters look bad after a few months also. I would agree it's fine if you drive them once a week or so and run fuel through them. If they sit they look like this after a while. But it's way better with non (low) ethanol fuel. Work for me
Instead of using private messaging I decided to start a secondary thread in the "free parking" section of the forum to continue discussing ethanol policy, corn subsidies, and US agriculture for anyone else that may be interested.
I am sure hundreds of you will soon be flocking over to the new thread to continue the riveting discussion.After all, one can only handle so many threads about HF being better than Snap-On and whining about not being able to find a tool truck.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4783189#post4783189
Great write ups!
Loving the UN-Honorable Freight better than Snap-On myself
Since the genius of burning up food crops to put in the gas tank destroying engines and fuel systems. Then burning it at almost 25% faster rate.
Beyond insanity, the only thing using food crops in the gas tank has done is increased FOOD prices by nearly 400% across the board. Also, caused more famine in 3rd world countries because food prices have skyrocketed.
This was done by design by the agenda pushing this on purpose to skyrocket food prices. Nothing to do with these environmental militants (sure they had a say in it) but food prices the end goal.
67King
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I LOVE Australia's car culture! Yep, I was in Dearborn, in Modular V8/V10 Engine Systems, until July 2007. We had a 5.4L 3V Falcon I got to drive a lot, LOVED that car. I was actually on an FPV program.......for about 3 days when it got cancelled. I thin it was going to be a supercharged 4.6L 3V, but I don't recall, it has been so long. Last thing I worked on was the new 5.0L. I think y'all had a supercharged version of that.....the thing I remember about it was that we shipped y'all the engines, complete with VCT systems, but they weren't ever activated. That was after I left, though.
Ford ended up going to a strategy where they made entire engine families flex fuel compatible. In other words, the changes that E85 drove into an engine ended up going in all of them. And then they would have entire engine families that were not flex fuel compatible.
Canoe50
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JonnyMac
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The supercharged coyote engine is a beautiful thing!! Originally an fpv product but as the manufacturing of falcon is scheduled to close next year they decided to bring it back in house and sell it as a straight ford product. They couldn't make enough of them! I think they've doubled the production run already and its still not enough...
I worked on that 3v obd system for a while, nice car but not the best calibration.. they are a rare beast as the 4v was sold in parallel. .
So I am a bit hesitant of using gas from our local pump, but will Race Gas rated at 100 octane work for garden equipment with the proper oil mix recommended by the manufacturer?
I have four 32 ounce Echo premixed gas/oil right not but would like to plan ahead of what gas to use.
Please advise. Thank you in advance.
I have four 32 ounce Echo premixed gas/oil right not but would like to plan ahead of what gas to use.
Please advise. Thank you in advance.
bob15
Well-known member
Depends....does the race gas have ethanol in it? Some 100+ octanes race fuels do.
If no ethonal, the gas won't hurt anything, the engine will actually run cooler. You will be fine.....
read here:
[URL="http://www.racegas.com/fuel/21"]http://www.racegas.comfuel/21[/URL]
http://www.vp-sef.com/index.php/faq
michiganman18
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Here alot of ethonal is in the gas. You especially see this when the engine have sat along time and needs carb work. The internals are covered in a powdery that usually never comes clean and the carb has to be cleaned. What I do: if the machines is being used daily I used regular gas. When storing. Use the very expensive premix to store with. That seems to do the trick