EVSEs and generators

[dcg9381]

So, we just got a solid 1/2 inch of snow / sleet in TX and as usual, the world is ending.
I get "generator" calls all the time about this and that, hopefully in advance, but this one has me stumped:

I got a call from a buddy running the Ford Lightening (EV). He was testing his EVSE (EV charger) and his Firman generator. It would work in 120V configuration, but as soon as it was switched to the 14-50R, the (Ford) EVSE would go blue, but not charge the truck.

I have the same generator as a manual back up for my shop. First thing I suggested was that the generator might be un-bonded and as EVSE's are sensitive little devices. Turns out the Firman T07573 has a neutral ground bond. So, I believe this should be the "right" configuration for an EVSE plugged in directly.

The generator is probed as 63 Hz, a little fast. But it works on 120V. EVSE does not go into charge mode on 240V. Is there something about the "full cycle" on 120V that might make 240V "more sensitive" to over-frequency?

I assume the wave form on any non-inverter generator is decent, but I haven't put it on a scope.

It's a mystery to me until the EVSE gives up it's detailed error code.

I've had the same issues plugging EVSE's into Ford F-150 Hybrid inverters (7500 watt) - they indicate ground fault.

You sparkies have a theory?

 

[PCustoms]

I assume the wave form on any non-inverter generator is decent, but I haven't put it on a scope.

I suspect quite the opposite, and that's probably the problem. Noisy power outage the charger into "safe" mode.

What are the details on the charger make/model?

 

[PCustoms]

Generator to charge truck

Looking for suggestions about vendors and specifications for a generator I can use to charge the truck. The existing generator I have puts the mobile charger in amber mode whether on 220 or 110 circuit even before connecting the vehicle. Ford customer service was of no help. I am assuming that...

www.f150lightningforum.com

 

[dcg9381]

What are the details on the charger make/model?

This is the factory Ford charger for the lightening (EV F-150). I've got a Charge Point that can provide a little more debug. I have the same generator that my buddy does, so I'll try it with the EVSEs that I have at home.

 

[rlitman]

...I have the same generator as a manual back up for my shop. First thing I suggested was that the generator might be un-bonded and as EVSE's are sensitive little devices. Turns out the Firman T07573 has a neutral ground bond. So, I believe this should be the "right" configuration for an EVSE plugged in directly...

I'd have expected the ground sensing system would pick up the un-bonded generator the same way in 120V as it does at 240V, but I do think you may be onto something.

 

[micromind]

Was the 120/240 volt switch on the gen switched while the charger was plugged in? If so, try unplugging it first the switching the gen. Might work, might not.

 

[dcg9381]

Was the 120/240 volt switch on the gen switched while the charger was plugged in? If so, try unplugging it first the switching the gen. Might work, might not.

Yes. EVSE powers up and indicates "green" status, but is not producing charge. No debug on this particular EVSE, so I'll need to use something that gives a little more debug.

 

[justsam]

What current is the EVSE set at? Less than 30 Amps? Try lower limit and move up from there.

 

[PCustoms]

Generator to charge truck

Looking for suggestions about vendors and specifications for a generator I can use to charge the truck. The existing generator I have puts the mobile charger in amber mode whether on 220 or 110 circuit even before connecting the vehicle. Ford customer service was of no help. I am assuming that...

www.f150lightningforum.com

Has anyone else poked around here?

 

[ToolsRCool]

I second justsam. The EVSE is really just a communication extension cord that tells the vehicle the max current the vehicle onboard charger can pull, based on the circuit sizing the EVSE is intendedly connected to (ie, you have to buy the right one or do a correct sizing install). If the EVSE is a 30amp @ 240v, but the generator can only spit out 20A @240v, it may fault out.

Just as a reference, I have successfully charged a Tesla with a Honda generator and EVSE as LEV-II (240v), no problem. It was even tolerant of slight RPM fluctuations. No special work, just plug and play.

 

[Denwood]

I’ve only had success with 120V charging via the EVSE and a neutral bonded plug, but using an inverter generator. My old generator would not run our newer furnace (newer communicating stat) and our UPS units cycled until exhausted. That was after tuning frequency and voltage on the generator.

Inverter gen solved the issues, including EV charging in emergencies.

 

[dcg9381]

I second justsam. The EVSE is really just a communication extension cord that tells the vehicle the max current the vehicle onboard charger can pull, based on the circuit sizing the EVSE is intendedly connected to (ie, you have to buy the right one or do a correct sizing install). If the EVSE is a 30amp @ 240v, but the generator can only spit out 20A @240v, it may fault out.

I'll play with it. The Charge Point that I have you can manually select input amps. The e-transit I have experience with is "dumb" - no controls for charge, so it just "negotiates" with the factory EVSE. Tesla has amp control built into their UI on the car. I have no idea what the lightening can do.

 

[johnre]

I have no idea what the lightening can do.

Per Google:

• 2022-2023 F-150 Lightning Extended Range: 80 ampere (A) (19.2 kW)
• 2022-2023 F-150 Lightning Standard Range: 48A (11.3 kW)
• 2024 F-150 Lightning Extended and Standard Range: 48A (11.3 kW)

The SAE-J1772 connection on the EVSE can only communicate what are its maximum capabilities for delivering current to the vehicle, and turn on / off AC power. It's up to the vehicle to assure that this value isn't exceeded. If that number exceeds the power source capabilities that the EVSE is connected to, and the on-board charger in the vehicle tries to use it, there will be problems.

According to the Firman T07573 link you provided, that generator is capable of 9.4 kW starting and 7.5 kW running (for gasoline; it's lower for LP). These are exceeded in the chart I saw posted for the F150 above.

The Charge Point [EVSE] that I have you can manually select input amps.

So the money question I think is "where did you set it?

 

[dcg9381]

Per Google:

• 2022-2023 F-150 Lightning Extended Range: 80 ampere (A) (19.2 kW)
• 2022-2023 F-150 Lightning Standard Range: 48A (11.3 kW)
• 2024 F-150 Lightning Extended and Standard Range: 48A (11.3 kW)

That's what the truck can do on a high amp charger. My question was "are their controls in the truck" when it's on a standard level 2 charger to turn it's charge rate down.

The SAE-J1772 connection on the EVSE can only communicate what are its maximum capabilities for delivering current to the vehicle, and turn on / off AC power. It's up to the vehicle to assure that this value isn't exceeded. If that number exceeds the power source capabilities that the EVSE is connected to, and the on-board charger in the vehicle tries to use it, there will be problems.

I'm aware. Sometimes you need the setting to be on the EVSE, but it's not necessary if you can control it vehicle side.

So the money question I think is "where did you set it?

I have a Charge Point and and Tesla EVSE, buddy has the Ford EVSE. I need more information from him. But as the EVSE never "starts" to charge, I suspect it's detecting a fault (frequency or bond).

 

[BroncoAZ]

That's what the truck can do on a high amp charger. My question was "are their controls in the truck" when it's on a standard level 2 charger to turn it's charge rate down.

The Lightning doesn’t have the ability to draw anything less than the max current the EVSE will provide. When I plug into my home Tesla charger the Lightning is drawing the max 48 amps available.

 

[dcg9381]

The Lightning doesn’t have the ability to draw anything less than the max current the EVSE will provide. When I plug into my home Tesla charger the Lightning is drawing the max 48 amps available.

Thank you. No way a 7.5k-9k generator can do that much power. I assume the Lightening charger is like our e-transit charger, if it's on 240V it assumes 40A is available?

 

[BroncoAZ]

The wall mounted Ford EVSE should be settable for different amperage circuits. I don’t have one so I’m not sure if that is set on an app or with physical jumpers inside the unit.

If the Lightning has a mobile charger in the frunk it should work with the generator. I read elsewhere that the 32 amp mobile charger is down rated to 30 amps to match what the 30 amp outlet that 9.6 kW pro power onboard trucks can supply.

 

[dcg9381]

The wall mounted Ford EVSE should be settable for different amperage circuits. I don’t have one so I’m not sure if that is set on an app or with physical jumpers inside the unit.

A side business of mine, we have a Ford e-transit. The "factory" charger has no settings, it's like the Tesla "mobile" charger, to different cords for 120V or 240V circuits, but no way to set the EVSE for alternate amp draw.

I pinged my buddy to come by this weekend and I can scope the generator, let him try the Charge Point, and debug the Ford EVSE.. I'm actually curious if the EVSE's that I have will show the same issue on generator power.

 

[justsam]

Is there an app for the vehicle that includes charging information? Is there any data from it that might help. I know with Tesla if you are using a fixed rate EVSE, such as the Tesla 32Amp Mobile Charger, you can set maximum current on the app, and geo fence it as well so it will always use your desired rate.

 

[gpiggaz]

Is there an app for the vehicle that includes charging information? Is there any data from it that might help. I know with Tesla if you are using a fixed rate EVSE, such as the Tesla 32Amp Mobile Charger, you can set maximum current on the app, and geo fence it as well so it will always use your desired rate.

I have a 2022 Lightning, and I haven't found that it has that control like our Tesla has. It's an oversight on Ford's part. Too bad they didn't buy the truck's software from Tesla

 

[dcg9381]

Too bad they didn't buy the truck's software from Tesla

Want your windshield wipers go on for no reason?

Agree though, it's an important feature to me to be able to control charging from the car, regardless of what EVSE you're connected to.