Extension ID help needed. 41-B-311-500

[r_olson_06]

I have had this extension since I started collecting several years ago. Anyone have any input on the manufacturer or origin/purpose?

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[DadsTools]

Some very early long extensions had speed handle grips on the shanks to help stabilize them during use like the swing grip on a bit brace. That's what this looks like. Can't distinguish both ends amid the menagerie of other extensions so can't see if there's anything unusual there (yes, impressive array of extensions, so congrats, but are nothing but distracting clutter when trying to ID a single item). If there's no mfr ID marks on it, then we'll have to find someone who has one out of a set that can ID it or recognize the numerical code--offhand looks like military number to me. More photos showing just the single item with what both ends look like will be helpful.

Any ideas, Private Lugz, Twersty, et al?

 

[r_olson_06]

Some very early long extensions had speed handle grips on the shanks to help stabilize them during use like the swing grip on a bit brace. That's what this looks like. Can't distinguish both ends amid the menagerie of other extensions so can't see if there's anything unusual there (yes, impressive array of extensions, so congrats, but are nothing but boastful distracting clutter when trying to ID a single item). If there's no ID marks on it, then we'll have top find someone who has one out of a set that can ID it. More photos showing just the single item with what both ends look like will be helpful.

Sorry about the others in the background garage is a mess and didn't have a clear spot. I know it is early it appears to similar to early snap on or MTF but the part number seems be custom per a manufacturer. I was hoping someone would recognize the part number similar to how catapillar tools typically start with a 1A or 1P.

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[Private Lugnutz]

That's a Federal Stock Number, late 1930s to 1953. (The 41 is the class of the item. If you've ever heard the term Class 6 used for liquor stores on a military post, it's because that was the federal supply class for liquor. 41 was hand tools. Machines were 40. Etc. The letter is phonetic. W was wrenches. B was bars, also bits. And the number was a unique identifier. They used suffixes to expand. Something like that grip would be a great typical reason.) I have several Army and Navy supply catalogs I can look it up in tomorrow. As an avid WWII collector, I can tell you that it's rare (edit: with that rotating speed grip). I've never seen one. Maybe pre-war, though FSN's were not commonly stamped on tools in that era. I'm on my phone. Tough to really get a good view. I'm looking forward to loooking closer later. As for ID if no mfgrs mark, I would try to match the knurl on that grip.

 

[r_olson_06]

That's a Federal Stock Number, late 1930s to 1953. I have several Army and Navy supply catalogs I can look it up in tomorrow. As an avid WWII collector, I can tell you that it's rare. I've never seen one. Might be pre-war. I'm on my phone. Tough to really get a good view. I'm looking forward to loooking closer later. As for ID if no mfgrs mark, I would try to match the knurl on that grip.

I will attempt to get some better pictures but thanks for the heads up on the part number. The socket end seems to be much longer than standard.

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[MattVette89]

This page/link below has a lot of info about WWII vintage tools. The poster seems to have gotten his hands on an original military manual and did a summary/transcription of most of it. Impressive.

https://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=252892

Does that extension have any other marks on it? He did post a similar part number:

"41-B-311-50 BF-V-20 BAR, 4 in. long"

According to the reference page he posted, it's made by Bonney Forge.

Hope that helps.

 

[twertsy]

I will attempt to get some better pictures but thanks for the heads up on the part number. The socket end seems to be much longer than standard.

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Knurling looks snappy to me. But, really reminds me of MTF (wonder why). Agree with Greg, def an FSN and rare.

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[r_olson_06]

Here are some more pictures:

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[twertsy]

Here are some more pictures:

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Interesting anectdotal.......I have that type extension in Williams, Blackhawk, SO, MTF, Bonney, etc. Every single mechanic that enters my shop wants them. Baffling that they aren't still made by the main suppliers anymore.

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[Private Lugnutz]

This page/link below has a lot of info about WWII vintage tools. The poster seems to have gotten his hands on an original military manual and did a summary/transcription of it.

That guy is an ******!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Just kidding. That's me. Had to use a different user name here.

I forgot I posted all that from the Ordnance Supply Catalog. I suspect the extension was dropped by 1945. Have a couple other sources to check.

 

[MattVette89]

That guy is an ******!

Clearly! Still impressive work, though...

That must have taken a long time. But when it's your hobby/passion it doesn't matter much, right?

 

[r_olson_06]

That guy is an ******!

Haven't heard that one in a while. Seems to be a split personality going on.


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[Private Lugnutz]

I lost count. There are at least 7 of us in here!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Does the extension have the two nubs on the shank to keep the rotating grip in place like early Snap-On had on its handles?

This probably won’t be much help to you, but here are my wartime socket drive tools with FSNs.

View media item 75146
Here’s a zoom on the FSNs:

View media item 75147
From top to bottom, are a 3/8-inch drive speed -H-andle (4-H-1507-95), a pair of 1/2-inch drive extensions - which were considered to be -B-ars (41-B-307, and 41-B-305), and a 1/2-inch drive hinged handle (41-H-1503).

The FSN actually helped me ID the Williams hinged handle, which as you can see, is missing the business end. Someone cut it off, I am guessing after it was no longer functional for whatever reason (e.g., broken). Not sure what they used this for other than a bar or club.

The extensions are a matching pair of GMTK bars, 6” and 10”, made by Mossberg with the <M> logo to the left of the FSNs. The heads are crudely forged.

View media item 75149
The 3/8-inch drive speeder is not branded. It’s not a Snap-On, because I have a Ferret F-4-D speeder and the shape and grip is not the same. Though close, also not a Bonney T9, because I also have one of those.

From top to bottom, it’s the unbranded FSN speeder, the Bonney speeder, and the Snap-On speeder.

View media item 75151
Not to hijack your thread, r_olson, but if you or anyone else can ID the speeder, please do. Right now it’s in my Williams set until I can find a Williams B- or F-15.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've never seen a Bonney 4091 10" extension bar, but unless my eyes are deceiving me, that might be my guess right now on your extension bar. Look at the grip on my speeder handle and then look at the grip on your speed extension and then look at the rotating grip on the 4091 in the 1939 catalog.

 

[d42jeep]

Just kidding. That's me. Had to use a different user name here.

I forgot I posted all that from the Ordnance Supply Catalog. I suspect the extension was dropped by 1945. Have a couple other sources to check.

Lugz,
I didn't see that FSN in July '45. Must have been dropped.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm assuming you're referring to the ORD 6, Don, and yeah, I am thinking that's the case (also dropped across the industry by the mid-40's probably), but I am going to re-check the March 1945 ORD 5 tomorrow.

I am doubling down on it being a Bonney though. They had a 10-incher with a rotating grip in the 1939 catalog (model number 4091), with the same exact grip shape as r_olson's, and it matches the grips on their speeders. Then by 1941 it was dropped from the catalog.

View media item 75152

 

[r_olson_06]

So I cannot tell if there is the 2 ball bearing on the grip similar to snap on. I did have a 10" extension with the rotating grip and the collar would slide up the extension. This one does not nor can I tell about the 2 rollers.
The grip is very similar to knurling on both the speeder and extension. The taper off the knurling is different but they are 2 different tools. I have attached the only bonney extension I have that is similar length and size. This also includes a more up close pic of the knurling. Let me know your thoughts.


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[DadsTools]

You know, I make a contribution to the vintage knowledge base here once in awhile, but some of you guys (and you know who you are) are out of this world with your guru-type knowledge on these old tools. I am in awe:::::::

 

[ChevyEFI]

Nice work, Lugnutz.

Are there any natural finish, knurled tools that are still made? I kind of like the general function, but supporting current manufacture interests me too.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Let me know your thoughts.

My thoughts are that I would’ve lost my shirt!

I was concentrating on the knurling and the taper on the rotating grip and the longer bell on the female drive end, but ignoring the male drive end, which clearly has that forged in ridge around the shank at the top of the drive stud that acts as a stop. Yours doesn’t have that, and neither does the Snap-On. Also, along the socket bell is where Snap-On marked handles, not on the shank. Even though the FSN isn't a model number, it's consistently stamped.

I think you were right all along. Snap-On Swivel Grip.

How long is yours? They had an S-6 and an S-12 from 1925 to 1939.

If you go to the 1936 Catalog L, page 24, linked here, there’s a terrific image. And you can see the two stops on the shank on either side of the rotating grip that prevented it from sliding.

If you go to the 1939 Catalog N, page 12, linked here, you can see the same extension. No stops visible. Maybe they went to the design with the stop on the inside of the handle.

And if you go to the 1941 Catalog O, you won’t find any extensions with a rotating grip. It looks like they dropped them, around the same time as Bonney, and the rest of the industry, and probably why we don’t see them in wartime manuals and catalogs.

 

[MattVette89]

I think it also looks similar to this Milwaukee Tool Forge from AA:

http://alloy-artifacts.org/milwaukee-tool-forge.html

 

[r_olson_06]

I think it also looks similar to this Milwaukee Tool Forge from AA:

http://alloy-artifacts.org/milwaukee-tool-forge.html

That does look very similar espically the taper to the drive end where the angle is less than typical extensions. The font looks very similar as well. I originally thought MTF but could not find the standard markings. So this would put it 1930s or earlier?

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[MattVette89]

Looks like MTF was approximately 1917-1932. In 1932 they merged with/became Lectrolite.

No idea if they would have produced military tools prior to gearing up for the war?

 

[Jp267]

You know, I make a contribution to the vintage knowledge base here once in awhile, but some of you guys (and you know who you are) are out of this world with your guru-type knowledge on these old tools. I am in awe:::::::

I gotta say Don and Lugnutz have been amazing in helping me out with going though a basement of 100 years worth of tools I inherited. My grandfather was a big time tool hoarder and I had no idea what I had. These guys have helped me ID so many things I feel like I owe you several cases of beer or something.

And surprise surprise I have a Penens speed bar with a similar knurled handle. Lol

I'll put up a picture later.

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[twertsy]

That does look very similar espically the taper to the drive end where the angle is less than typical extensions. The font looks very similar as well. I originally thought MTF but could not find the standard markings. So this would put it 1930s or earlier?

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That was my original sense when I saw it. Problem is, I don't believe that numbering system was around during the MTF time.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The male drive stud end on the MTF looks significantly different to me. On the Snap-On and r_olson's tool, it looks as if the square drive stud has been formed by literally pinching the round steel stock. On the MTF, it looks either machined or forged on to the end. In either case, the O.D. of the MTF shank is actually much larger than the male 1/2" drive stud. Compare and I think you'll see what I mean. The female socket bells taper differently to the shank, too, but the different male drive ends are more telling.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

r_olson, all,

I checked all my wartime references. No dice on that particular extension. For context, those are a March 1944 Navy Aviation Supply Office Class 41 (all Hand Tools) Catalog, a March 1945 Army Ordnance Supply Catalog SNL J-4 (all Army wrenches), an April and July 1945 SNL G-27 (all Army upper echelon toolsets), April 1945 War Department TM 9-867 (Care and Maintenance of Hand Tools, all services), and February 1945 War Department TM 1-425 (Aircraft Mechanics Tools, all services).

I have a query out to a friend with a 1938 Quartermaster Corps automotive maintenance tools manual (they owned the responsibility before it was taken away and given to the Ordnance Dept in 1942).

You'll be interested to see what I did find in the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4. See the highlighted row.

View media item 75180
In my experience, this 41-B-311-200 5-inch "swivel grip" extension bar strongly suggests that 41-B-311-500 was a longer size length. There may have even been a -300 and -400 in between. (Still waiting to hear how long yours is!) No idea why they would drop the longer versions and keep the short one, but trying to find rhyme or reason for these little anomalies is often a never-ending quest for us WWII guys! We've been on the lookout for the 1943 version of this ORD 5 catalog for a long time. That might help.

The TKEX2E is an Ordnance Dept stock number, not a mfgr's number.

 

[3baygarage]

Could R's extension be a later Mossberg (aka Apco Mossberg).

Found a 5" or so rotating handle during last year's GS season.

I know it's very hard to i.d. some of these things from a distance.

View media item 75191

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Found a 5" or so rotating handle during last year's GS season.

I know it's very hard to i.d. some of these things from a distance.

Send it to me and I'll be glad to ID it from close-up!
Seriously, that is probably a good example for the 41-B-311-200 5-inch swivel grip extension in the 1945 Ordnance catalog page I just posted.

 

[twertsy]

Send it to me and I'll be glad to ID it from close-up!
Seriously, that is probably a good example for the 41-B-311-200 5-inch swivel grip extension in the 1945 Ordnance catalog page I just posted.

I don't see those 5 inchers often. I think Blackhawk (7/16" drive) and Williams are the only shorties I have. The rest are long.

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[Private Lugnutz]

The only swivel grip extension I own is a shorty Blackhawk, and it's in a Quick Disconnect (Q.D.) set, adding to my impression of them as pre-war tools, reinforced by Bonney and Snap-On catalogs (although it would be interesting to see if it really was an industry-wide dropping...), despite the lone survivor in the 1945 ORD 5.

 

[twertsy]

The only swivel grip extension I own is a shorty Blackhawk, and it's in a Quick Disconnect (Q.D.) set, adding to my impression of them as pre-war tools, reinforced by Bonney and Snap-On catalogs (although it would be interesting to see if it really was an industry-wide dropping...), despite the lone survivor in the 1945 ORD 5.

Man do I need that set.......

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[Private Lugnutz]

Sorry, bud. I wish I had two of them..., but I am still literally kicking myself from time to time for selling my "Black Hills Gold" 32-CD Q.D. set.

 

[r_olson_06]

r_olson, all,

I checked all my wartime references. No dice on that particular extension. For context, those are a March 1944 Navy Aviation Supply Office Class 41 (all Hand Tools) Catalog, a March 1945 Army Ordnance Supply Catalog SNL J-4 (all Army wrenches), an April and July 1945 SNL G-27 (all Army upper echelon toolsets), April 1945 War Department TM 9-867 (Care and Maintenance of Hand Tools, all services), and February 1945 War Department TM 1-425 (Aircraft Mechanics Tools, all services).

I have a query out to a friend with a 1938 Quartermaster Corps automotive maintenance tools manual (they owned the responsibility before it was taken away and given to the Ordnance Dept in 1942).

You'll be interested to see what I did find in the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4. See the highlighted row.

View media item 75180
In my experience, this 41-B-311-200 5-inch "swivel grip" extension bar strongly suggests that 41-B-311-500 was a longer size length. There may have even been a -300 and -400 in between. (Still waiting to hear how long yours is!) No idea why they would drop the longer versions and keep the short one, but trying to find rhyme or reason for these little anomalies is often a never-ending quest for us WWII guys! We've been on the lookout for the 1943 version of this ORD 5 catalog for a long time. That might help.

The TKEX2E is an Ordnance Dept stock number, not a mfgr's number.

OAL is 10-5/32" or a smidge over 10-1/8".

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[Private Lugnutz]

Hmm. Well, AA says the SG-12 in its collection is 10 inches long. The Snap-On catalogs say it was 12 inches long. We may need to contact Snapmom to settle this one.

Do you see what I'm saying about the milled male drive end (on the MTF) compared to the drive end on yours and the Snap-On, which looks formed from the round shank stock?

 

[r_olson_06]

Hmm. Well, AA says the SG-12 in its collection is 10 inches long. The Snap-On catalogs say it was 12 inches long. We may need to contact Snapmom to settle this one.

Do you see what I'm saying about the milled male drive end (on the MTF) compared to the drive end on yours and the Snap-On, which looks formed from the round shank stock?

I see. It appears the male end is more taken off or the hole round stock is smaller on mine than the snap on or MTF. I would be curious what the O.D. dimension is on the snap on round stock.

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[Private Lugnutz]

I see. It appears the male end is more taken off or the hole round stock is smaller on mine than the snap on or MTF.

Yes. I think it has to do with how they were made and the size of the round bar stock. Some were milled with a machine after being forged and cured, others were formed during the forging process, with a die that made the round end square. The milled ends are very sharp and defined where they meet the shank, and the shank is much wider. The forged drive ends are cruder, leaving shoulders (of the shank) on the four edges of the square drive stud, and result in nearly the same O.D. as the shank.

I think the male drive end on your piece looks forged, as does the male drive end on the figure of an SG-12 in the Snap-On catalogs. I see that the SG-12 on AA looks milled, not forged. But I would want to see more examples if I were you. It's possible that Snap-On changed processes at some point.

I would be curious what the O.D. dimension is on the snap on round stock.

Me too! You really need to find someone with an SG-12 and one of those MTF examples and maybe even a Bonney 4091.

 

[snapmom]

The two on the top are early 30s then late 30s. early has external balls, later has internal with banding at the top, 40s would be about the same as late 30s