Final lighting review before I order lights!

[jpcjguy]

Hi Everyone,

So after some delay because of other things coming up in life, I am back to getting ready for lights in the garage.
Background info: 48x30 garage with right side bay(16' wide) having 12' walls and a 4/12 pitched interior ceiling. The rest of the space has 10' wall with flat ceiling. See attached pics of the garage. Note: the whole space will be drywalled and painted white.

I did use the tool using the Lithonia 4ft. LED tube light fixture. I think it is close enough to the ones I am looking at - mainly because I want dimming capability.
For the flat ceiling area (32x30) I ended up with 18 lights to give me 84fc at 2.5 plane. This is spacing of 6x3 (as in the visual tool pic). If I add 2 more lights the pattern goes 5x4 to give up to 94fc but the pattern, to me, is much busier.
For the lift bay, I kind of guessed on a ceiling height of 13 to balance the scissor truss. 12 lights gets me 90fc.

I think this is the light I will go with https://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/E5SLB35D4-850-p/e5slb35d4-850.htm?CartID=1 at $45 each.

Am I missing anything? Thoughts on my layout before I pull the trigger on the order of 30 lights!

Thanks,
Joe

 

[jpcjguy]

So nobody has any thoughts or comments? No way I am that good.

Of course I have been poking around and thought about the Maxlite dimmable fixtures here: https://www.prolighting.com/commercial-lighting/led-shop-lights-and-commercial-lighting/dedicated/ls-4846u-50.html

The LS-4846U-50 is a 46 watt, 48" linear LED strip fixture that provides 5,986 lumens of 5000K daylight white light

Compared to the original light I had thought about:
LED Lighting Wholesale Inc., E5SLB35D4-850, that has 5,181 lumens using 35 watts.

For the same FC for my 32x30 section I would need 21 of the E5SLB35D4-850 lights and only 18 of the LS-4846U-50. So I am looking at the difference between a 6x3 vs 7x3 layout and the total cost of the 18 is about $205 more compared to the 21.

 

[cybrdyke]

Maxlite is a known brand in the lighting industry that's been around for over 25 years. No one's ever heard of the other brand. Plus, the warranty is twice as long with Maxlite.
CD

 

[mcbane]

I never know what “science “ to trust anymore but aren’t 5K lights suspected of accelerating macular degeneration? Maybe consider 4K.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[jpcjguy]

Maxlite is a known brand in the lighting industry that's been around for over 25 years. No one's ever heard of the other brand. Plus, the warranty is twice as long with Maxlite.
CD

Good call outs. Thanks cybrdyke!

So what are the thoughts on my layout orientation - since my workbench is against the back wall should I rotate my lights 90 degrees so the 4 feet length is left/right instead of front/back?
I think I will be ok since the spacing is 5 feet from the wall to the center of the lamp - which means the end of the lamp is only 3 feet from the wall (and my room dimensions are exterior so I am really losing 8-12 inches anyway...)

 

[cybrdyke]

Good call outs. Thanks cybrdyke!

So what are the thoughts on my layout orientation - since my workbench is against the back wall should I rotate my lights 90 degrees so the 4 feet length is left/right instead of front/back?
I think I will be ok since the spacing is 5 feet from the wall to the center of the lamp - which means the end of the lamp is only 3 feet from the wall (and my room dimensions are exterior so I am really losing 8-12 inches anyway...)

I think it's fine. Rotating wont change anything. Overhead lighting is for general illumination and task lighting is used to fill in where necessary. You're doing great.
CD

 

[Innovate1]

I never know what “science “ to trust anymore but aren’t 5K lights suspected of accelerating macular degeneration? Maybe consider 4K.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

Not sure about the safety but 5k are a bit blue and harsh for my liking. I am going with 4k.

 

[Mesozoic]

I never know what “science “ to trust anymore but aren’t 5K lights suspected of accelerating macular degeneration? Maybe consider 4K.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

You might be more concerned with the immense amount of EMI radiation present in your environment over 5000K lamps potentially accelerating eye deterioration! Honestly, I'd be more concerned about keeping a cell phone near/on your person due to the constant RF radiation exposure.

In any case, that lighting arrangement appears sound to me - I opted for high output 5000K UFOs instead, though.

 

[jpcjguy]

Yeah I am on the fence on 4000 versus 5000. Is that simply a color change or if I drop to 4000 would I need to get more lights?

 

[Mesozoic]

I believe it’s just a color temperature adjustment. Most offices are setup with 4000K lighting, but if you want a clinical look, 5000K would get you there.

 

[Bert_]

Yeah I am on the fence on 4000 versus 5000. Is that simply a color change or if I drop to 4000 would I need to get more lights?

Lumens are lumens. The color temp is mostly preference. I like 5000*k when you get up to 80+ footcandles.

I've got 6500*k lamps in some T12 shop lights above a bench. There is about 110fc on the bench top and it is very natural looking.

 

[jpcjguy]

So for fun and games, I took two old hanging lights and put them up roughly where 2 of my lights would be - mainly to see spacing off the back wall where the workbench would be. According to the lighting plan the edge of the lamps will be 2' 6" from the wall. I was worried about being back lit when standing in front of the workbench (30" deep). I think I will be ok. See the attached pics.
The bulbs in these lights are Sylvania 40w Cool White 4100 color and I think about 2100-2500 lumens each. So I each lamp is from 4200-5000 lumens. That is a bit less than the 5986 lumens from the MaxLite lamps I am looking at. And it will be fully drywalled and painted white which should offer some decent reflection
.
I think I am good. Analysis Paralysis!!!

Still debating on 4000 vs 5000 color. Not sure I want it "clinical" so leaning more to the 4000 color.....currently

 

[jpcjguy]

On another note, I was thinking about the bay side and the lighting there. That side has 12 lights - but based on a flat 12' ceiling. I have 4/12 scissor trusses. So looking at the plan I though adding 4 more lights should account for the extra height. You can see that the lights would only go up 9' 6" on the 15' 8" run. Thinking 2 lights a side near the peak, running perpendicular to the others. See pic.

Thoughts?

 

[Mesozoic]

Have you modeled this in Dialux? You might have an overkill situation going on here, but that exercise will tell.

 

[jpcjguy]

Have you modeled this in Dialux? You might have an overkill situation going on here, but that exercise will tell.

I have not. I am not familiar with that program.

 

[Mesozoic]

I have not. I am not familiar with that program.

It's free, if you want to give it a shot. Kind of depends on how CAD savvy you are... although it's easy enough to use that I've taught someone how to be proficient in it without too much guidance.

https://www.dialux.com/en-GB/

 

[Bert_]

Dialux is like the visual interior tool on steroids. It gives you so much more information.

 

[jpcjguy]

Unfortunately I have no CAD experience and I tried SketchUp a long time ago and was not that good at it..

 

[Mesozoic]

Unfortunately I have no CAD experience and I tried SketchUp a long time ago and was not that good at it..

You don't have to use computer aided design technology to spec the lights in your shop. However, having been through a similar exercise and understanding a small bit about workplane lighting requirements for different types of jobs, I would say that you have too many lights spec'd out for your garage. At almost 6000 lumens per unit (which is a lot), you probably don't need that many lamps. You could save yourself some money and spread them out a bit... take a look at the lighting pattern for those lamps to give you a better idea of how far to space them and overlap their output.

 

[jpcjguy]

You don't have to use computer aided design technology to spec the lights in your shop. However, having been through a similar exercise and understanding a small bit about workplane lighting requirements for different types of jobs, I would say that you have too many lights spec'd out for your garage. At almost 6000 lumens per unit (which is a lot), you probably don't need that many lamps. You could save yourself some money and spread them out a bit... take a look at the lighting pattern for those lamps to give you a better idea of how far to space them and overlap their output.

Mesozic - thanks for your help in this. To say it is frustrating figuring out my lighting plan is an understatement! I tried playing around in the Dialux and was totally overwhelmed!
Can you explain more on looking at the lighting pattern?

 

[Mesozoic]

Mesozic - thanks for your help in this. To say it is frustrating figuring out my lighting plan is an understatement! I tried playing around in the Dialux and was totally overwhelmed!
Can you explain more on looking at the lighting pattern?

I looked up the MaxLite LS-4846U-50 and they include some photometric data, but that's really only usable in software like Dialux. I loaded it up and it appears to have a fairly wide dispersion pattern. You would need to model the building and the mounting locations of the lights to figure out whether you're overkill or not, but I see that those lamps are also 0-10V dimmable, so even if you install too many, you always have that option!

 

[jpcjguy]

So I have attached some attempts in Dialux - I downloaded the IES file for the lights and used them in the model. I used a FC value of 80.
Not sure how to interpret this - I guess the workplane is set at default? But according to this I need 24 lights in my 30x32 area!!!

Edit: - so I when I click on materials it looks like the reflectance of the ceilings, walls, floor are 70/50/20 - same as what was used in the visual-3d tool

 

[cybrdyke]

Energetic beam angle is 120. MaxLite is 110.
Dialux is showing you the isobars for each increment of 5fc. The center circle is 90fc, well over your 80fc target. Everything inside the next circle is 75fc or more, but less than 90fc, and so on.
Dialux reports to you the average foot-candles in the entire space, which is 80.3fc. As you can see, the vast majority of your space is 75+ footcandles.
Reduce your fc requirement to 70 fc and see what the center of the space becomes. Betting it's more like 80 and the fixture count goes down.
CD
CD

 

[jpcjguy]

Energetic beam angle is 120. MaxLite is 110.
Dialux is showing you the isobars for each increment of 5fc. The center circle is 90fc, well over your 80fc target. Everything inside the next circle is 75fc or more, but less than 90fc, and so on.
Dialux reports to you the average foot-candles in the entire space, which is 80.3fc. As you can see, the vast majority of your space is 75+ footcandles.
Reduce your fc requirement to 70 fc and see what the center of the space becomes. Betting it's more like 80 and the fixture count goes down.
CD
CD

So I changed the target to 60fc and looks like the average is 67.1fc - had to go to that level in fc to change the number of lights. Looks like it dropped me from 4 rows of 6 lights to 4 rows of lights.

 

[Mesozoic]

Nice work. I'm sure it will still be ridiculously bright despite the lower luminaire count!

 

[jpcjguy]

Nice work. I'm sure it will still be ridiculously bright despite the lower luminaire count!

Thanks - the hardest part is not having a true knowledge of what the difference between 60-70 fc and say, 80-90. The technical side of my brain is having a hard time with that. If I knew what 60fc looked like, I would then be able to say I need 50% more light, or double that....argh!

 

[jpcjguy]

Playing around with the Dialux program is pretty cool! Granted I have not scratched the surface, but what I did is change the orientation of the lights so when you coming the garage door, the 4' length is left to right and not front to back. I also pushed them toward the back wall where the workbench would be so that last row is more overhead, only 2.2' from the wall. Whereas the front row of lights, location of the garage doors and man door, is 3.5' from that wall.

 

[cybrdyke]

Thanks - the hardest part is not having a true knowledge of what the difference between 60-70 fc and say, 80-90. The technical side of my brain is having a hard time with that. If I knew what 60fc looked like, I would then be able to say I need 50% more light, or double that....argh!

1-2fc would be a typical parking lot at night
15fc is a warehouse
40-45fc is a school classroom (without sunshine pouring thru the windows)
45-50fc is a common office
40-50fc is a common grocery store.

It would still be very hard to say "I need 50% more light" because it's still too hard to wrap your brain around the quantity of what you are "seeing". Also, if you decided you need 50% more light, how would you accomplish that? By adding 50% more fixtures? It doesn't work like that.
Confusing, huh?
That's why folks go to college for 4 years to learn this stuff....

CD

 

[jpcjguy]

1-2fc would be a typical parking lot at night
15fc is a warehouse
40-45fc is a school classroom (without sunshine pouring thru the windows)
45-50fc is a common office
40-50fc is a common grocery store.

It would still be very hard to say "I need 50% more light" because it's still too hard to wrap your brain around the quantity of what you are "seeing". Also, if you decided you need 50% more light, how would you accomplish that? By adding 50% more fixtures? It doesn't work like that.
Confusing, huh?
That's why folks go to college for 4 years to learn this stuff....

CD

all excellent points! Been a heck of a learning curve! So what do you think of my latest plan? Looks like my average is 66.1 fc, of which only the very edges are in the 50s...
At 34.6 watts each that is 692 total watts, on a 0-10 dimmer - should not be an issue on a single switch.

 

[cybrdyke]

Walls are usually covered with cabinets, shelves, toolboxes, etc...so lower levels there are not that important. These things also absorb some of the reflected light from the walls, too. If you put a workbench along a wall, it should have it's own task light. 75fc in the center is more than 99.9% of garages will ever have. The only reason for more is if you're going to spend 10 hours a day/5 days a week in there doing professional auto repair or detailing.
As far as fixture orientation, I prefer to not see the 4' length of tube when I pull into the garage. I prefer to see the end of the fixture, not having the width of it in my eyes.
Good luck,
CD
CD

 

[Mesozoic]

Well, since you've managed to get a model setup in Dialux, you can layer in some detail and get some better results from the program. Figure out how to select the Space for your room (there's an icon on the lefthand toolbar that is named Spaces). Make sure the height of the space is correctly setup. After that's set, you can select a lighting profile. I ended up selecting a utilization profile for 33 - LIGHTING FOR RESIDENCES with an Application of Residential Interiors; Garage, Vehicle Bay, Vehicle maintenance.

Beyond that you can create light scenes and see what the space will look like at different times of day with different combinations of lamps turned on, etc. For example, with my space I was interested in seeing what the ambient light looked at in the morning and evening with no lights turned on at all. I created separate light scenes for that and visualizing the space like this really helped me settle on specific design decisions within my garage (window placement, size, etc.).

 

[jpcjguy]

Well, since you've managed to get a model setup in Dialux, you can layer in some detail and get some better results from the program. Figure out how to select the Space for your room (there's an icon on the lefthand toolbar that is named Spaces). Make sure the height of the space is correctly setup. After that's set, you can select a lighting profile. I ended up selecting a utilization profile for 33 - LIGHTING FOR RESIDENCES with an Application of Residential Interiors; Garage, Vehicle Bay, Vehicle maintenance.

Beyond that you can create light scenes and see what the space will look like at different times of day with different combinations of lamps turned on, etc. For example, with my space I was interested in seeing what the ambient light looked at in the morning and evening with no lights turned on at all. I created separate light scenes for that and visualizing the space like this really helped me settle on specific design decisions within my garage (window placement, size, etc.).

So I can't seem to see that profile option. Below is what I have when I click on spaces. When I started the project I used vehicle repair - see image

 

[Mesozoic]

That works - the point is there's a minimum fc requirement for certain tasks and the tool takes into account daily usage, when the usage occurs throughout the day, etc. in order to help determine lighting costs, but I doubt that's really a major concern for most of the DIY hobbyists.

 

[jpcjguy]

So I am finally ready to wire for my lights. Had a bunch of other stuff take priority.

I wired 4 lights up in a rough pattern to see the brightness and pattern - which is really tough on studded walls and ceiling and not white painted drywall!

So I am debating between a 6x4 vs a 6x3 pattern for the 10ft flat ceiling. See the dialux attachments and other pics.

Any advice?