Final Nail in the Craftsman Coffin.

[shoturtle]

It is impossible and implausible to ALWAYS buy USA products or services. However, when presented with a choice, I always lean and put full effort into supporting US products/services.

Even if the Asian slim profile is better the the US made slim profile?

 

[zbadass28]

Nah unions are great look at what a great job the UAW did to the automotive industry!

I'm UAW, got a problem with that?

 

[allinon72]

Even if the Asian slim profile is better the the US made slim profile?

But that's almost never the case...the USA thin profile is better in your example.

 

[garfunkle24]

What about the starving here. Maybe Americans need to take care of Americans first.

How many Americans are literally starving to death?

It is entirely illogical to determine how much you care about a random human being based upon which land mass they happened to be born on.

 

[shoturtle]

But that's almost never the case...the USA thin profile is better in your example.

I have read mix reviews, allot say the Taiwan one is better, and at the store. The US one just felt sloppier then the taiwan ones I tried.

 

[concealer404]

But that's almost never the case...the USA thin profile is better in your example.

I think the point he was making was "Would you willingly pay more or the same for an inferior product if it was made in the US?"

I tried to make the point a few times earlier and nobody ever answered.

Yes, in this particular case, it doesn't work. Works better when you compare one brand to another.


Or if we want to take it a little farther: If the RP ratchets stayed in the US and the price went up say... $10. Would you still buy them? Or would you think long and hard about going with the import NextGen ratchets? (Which i actually REALLY like, fwiw.)

 

[shoturtle]

Yup that was the point I was trying to make. Inferior US made or better off shore at the same price point. I pick better each and every time.

 

[shoturtle]

How many Americans are literally starving to death?

It is entirely illogical to determine how much you care about a random human being based upon which land mass they happened to be born on.

I think american over eat and have heart attacks that kills them vs starving to death.

Soup box with populist propaganda imho.

 

[Link-Belt]

How many Americans are literally starving to death?

It is entirely illogical to determine how much you care about a random human being based upon which land mass they happened to be born on.

There are quite a few Americans who live under the poverty level.
Ricky Scaggs used to do a special on it.He would go into the hills of Tennessee and Kentucky places like that and there are whole communit that have no power or running water, they are starving children and adults the same. Anyway that's where my 49 cents a day would go if I could afford it. And you can call me a primal *** if you want I don't care I will still choose to take care of my own kind first.

 

[garfunkle24]

There are quite a few Americans who live under the poverty level.
Ricky Scaggs used to do a special on it.He would go into the hills of Tennessee and Kentucky places like that and there are whole communit that have no power or running water, they are starving children and adults the same. Anyway that's where my 49 cents a day would go if I could afford it. And you can call me a primal *** if you want I don't care I will still choose to take care of my own kind first.

"Under the poverty line" doesn't have quite the same urgency as "starving to death", does it?

So you think someone is "your kind" because they happened to be born within the same borders as you? Apparently you are entirely illogical. Each to their own.

Do you feel more kinship towards a child-****** American or a good human being from another country? Like i said: Entirely illogical.

 

[Link-Belt]

The fact of it is I for one stand for America and it's countrymen and believe I should help the people who are citizens here and the economy here before I help the people or economy of another country. I will see if I can find a link to one of the Ricky Scaggs special you can watch it then tell me there are not people starving to death.

 

[kidney]

So you think someone is "your kind" because they happened to be born within the same borders as you?

I dunno...Are all Canadians as insolent and condescending as you are?

 

[shoturtle]

Poverty in the US does not have the same meaning as poverty in say Africa or South America. And I lived in Tenn and Kentucky. While their are poor there, the children are not starving to death like in some parts of Africa. The states of Kentucky and Tenn has good child welfare, and then there is the Federal food stamp. So the families can buy food. That does not quite compare to what I have seen in Africa or South America as those places do not have the luxury of federal food stamp or child warfare and school lunch programs. JMTC.

 

[concealer404]

Poverty in the US does not have the same meaning as poverty in say Africa or South America. And I lived in Tenn and Kentucky. While their are poor there, the children are not starving to death like in some parts of Africa. The states of Kentucky and Tenn has good child welfare, and then there is the Federal food stamp. So the families can buy food. That does not quite compare to what I have seen in Africa or South America as those places do not have the luxury of federal food stamp or child warfare and school lunch programs. JMTC.

There's a reason you can donate $1 to feed a kid for a week there or whatever it is. That **** isn't happening here.

 

[garfunkle24]

I dunno...Are all Canadians as insolent and condescending as you are?

Dunno, i'm not Canadian. Just one more asinine assumption you made.

Do all Americans have as profound a misunderstanding of the words "insolent" and "condescending" as you do?

Making baseless accusations makes you seem very intelligent. Or not.

 

[garfunkle24]

There's a reason you can donate $1 to feed a kid for a week there or whatever it is. That **** isn't happening here.

it's just happening with your tax dollars instead. Can you not comprehend that?

 

[shoturtle]

No it does not happen here, I do not see children so hunger they stomachs are inflated with air for malnutrition, or so starving that the skin skin is so stretch on the bones, and you see every bone on the dying child's body. Not some of the better memories the US Army gave me. The US do not have those conditions.

 

[concealer404]

it's just happening with your tax dollars instead. Can you not comprehend that?

I most certainly can... and made that very same point about 6-8 times in this thread already on previous pages.

 

[garfunkle24]

I most certainly can... and made that very same point about 6-8 times in this thread already on previous pages.

So WTF are you talking about then?

 

[shoturtle]

it's just happening with your tax dollars instead. Can you not comprehend that?

At least the States and fed provided for the poor to a degree with our tax dollars. That is not case in some of the poorest countries in the world. The govt just do not have the tax base to even provide basic nutrition for children. They are just that dirt poor.

 

[concealer404]

So WTF are you talking about then?

Can you buy a child a week's worth of food for $1 in America?

The harsh truth is that your dollar goes farther saving people from death by starvation in countries other than the US.

If my donation saves 10 kids overseas, or 1 kid here.... the choice is not difficult.

 

[Link-Belt]

I can't find a link to it with my phone and I don't own a computer maybe someone could Google it and find something on it. Still the problem exist weather or not it's as bad as over seas is irrelevant. The problem here in America needs to be fixed by Americans before Americans can worry about other countries.And as for the systems that are set up to help that sort of thing are broken. There are elderly in the USA eating dog and cat food to survive because those same systems you speak of fails them. Those systems are in desperate need of reform.

 

[shoturtle]

Those problem exist but not to the extent you make it out to be. That was more the case 2 decades ago then now. Allot of it has to do with the seniors are living in states with such a high cost of living that their rent eats most of their fix income. NYS and the North East are prime examples of that.

Yes the system is not work the best, as the senior do not know how to get to those programs. Which is a big part of the problem in NYS.

 

[garfunkle24]

Can you buy a child a week's worth of food for $1 in America?

The harsh truth is that your dollar goes farther saving people from death by starvation in countries other than the US.

If my donation saves 10 kids overseas, or 1 kid here.... the choice is not difficult.

Gotcha. We're in agreement then. I got flamed to hell and back in another thread about nationalistic purchasing habits because I said i'd rather feed 10 hungry Africans than one American.

 

[garfunkle24]

I can't find a link to it with my phone and I don't own a computer maybe someone could Google it and find something on it. Still the problem exist weather or not it's as bad as over seas is irrelevant. The problem here in America needs to be fixed by Americans before Americans can worry about other countries.And as for the systems that are set up to help that sort of thing are broken. There are elderly in the USA eating dog and cat food to survive because those same systems you speak of fails them. Those systems are in desperate need of reform.

There is not a single American who can't walk into an ER, soup kitchen or social services office and get fed. Simple as.

So does every American have to be 100% well fed, clothed etc before you give a cent to anyone else? Where do you draw the line? Does every American have to live in a gold-plated mansion and eat caviar before you'll feed a starving African kid?

You can argue all you want, but there is no logic behind your position.

 

[geologist]

I buy Channellock over Stanley all the time, even though the Channellocks are twice the price (if not more). The price difference is negligible when I can buy the Channellocks once and have a life-long tool, whereas the Stanleys are little more than polished Harbor Freight.

My grandpa has US made thin-profile Craftsman ratchets. I have the Taiwan made variant which is what Sears replaced my busted up Tri-wings with. As far as quality goes, I'm slightly biased toward the US made set vs mine. Overall, the fit and finish seemed slightly better. However, that's just a comparison of these sets. I'm sure there are badly finished US sets and well finished Taiwanese sets out there. For the most part, they're probably equally good tools.

After paying on student loans, bills, etc. I don't have a whole lot of money left over. However, things are never going to get better HERE unless I'm supporting the businesses based HERE. If there is a comparable or better US made product, it gets my dollar, provided the US company isn't playing stupid.

Harbor Freight gets my buck for socket rails whereas Snap-on charges something like $10 for the same $0.20 strip of metal. Don't abuse my good will, and you'll get my dollar - there is a difference between fairness and taking advantage. I'd have paid $2 or $3 for the Snap-on rails.

I didn't mind paying Craftsman prices for US made tools. I do mind paying Craftsman prices for non-US made tools. Craftsman used to be a lifestyle brand that did its job, and did its job well, and could be handed down. I'd highly doubt many of their tools from today will enjoy the same longevity. Would I pay more for US made QUALITY Craftsman? Yes. How much more depends on the level of quality as I mentioned above in the comparison between Stanley and Channellock.

 

[Link-Belt]

OK I'm done with the starving children thing I guess I'll just have a cup of coffee and move on.BTW the starving children thing was just an example probably not the best one I could've picked. Oh the coffee thing jk.

 

[OEXL16B]

You guys are getting pretty deep into this discussion.

 

[Perrorojo]

This wasn't a union/non-union, Rich/poor thread. It was about Craftsman(once an American bragging point) shipping everything overseas. We all know worthless people be they union or not. We all know Rich and Poor idiots. Are we going to fix the problem and fix our country or are we going to piss and moan like the ******* on the View? There is a tremendous amount of knowledge on boards like this that would be better served by being proactive.

 

[powertrip]

Hey, has anyone seen those new made in china craftsman extensions yet. They just came out, they sure are shiny. What is everyones opinion on this.

 

[shoturtle]

Good luck getting on honest review.

 

[RangerDaleXp]

I am amazed. Other threads have been removed or shut down for way less. This thread has completely been derailed a very long time ago.....

 

[RangerDaleXp]

View media item 17910

 

[OEXL16B]

This thread has completely been derailed a very long time ago.....

Yeah, 18 pages over a department store that sells Chinese made tools.

 

[Mister Moose]

Mister Moose, I hold nothing against a rich man making more money although my post may seem that way. What I do have a problem with is a rich man making more money at the expence of someone else's livelyhood. Poor does not mean having nothing it means not having very much of. So with inflation on the rise and wages on the decline it is possible to become Moor poor.I CAN'T believe you guys actually think corporations play ball fair. I do see the business side is to make money but is it ethical and actually helping the grouth and prosparity of our economy the way business is conducted these days? I tinkering not. Give me the days of a hand shake on and honest deal with a man I could trust anyday over this cluster ****.

Wow, 4 pages since this afternoon. Let's look at this one part at a time.

"What I do have a problem with is a rich man making more money at the expence of someone else's livelyhood."

Ok, this might happen once in a while in leveraged buyouts, I'll give you that. But in the larger picture, just exactly how does this happen? Your wages are based on what your job is worth. No one is going to pay you more than your job is worth just to be a nice guy. That nice guy if he does pay more than the job is worth is going to go out of business because his competition isn't paying more than the job is worth. This affects the product cost, and the nice guy who has a bigger payroll must pass those costs on to his customers. The customers now go elsewhere to save money. Just how is this nice guy supposed to pay you more?

"So with inflation on the rise and wages on the decline it is possible to become Moor poor"

Inflation is going to come from government spending and printing money, not your employer. If your wages are on the decline, it is likely that your profession is on the decline. Wages rise when the profession is in demand, and the demand outstrips supply. If your wages are truly in decline, take a hard look at your industry.

"I CAN'T believe you guys actually think corporations play ball fair."

There is nothing "fair" about running a business. It is a form of economic warfare. These companies are competing for every sale, for every customer. There are winners and losers. If you make a slight mis-step, your competition will eat you alive. There is nothing "fair" about that. Each company acts in it's own self interest. That's it. Not complicated. Get over "fair", you won't find it.

"I do see the business side is to make money but is it ethical and actually helping the grouth and prosparity of our economy the way business is conducted these days? "

Yes, it absolutely is ethical, and yes, a healthy, vibrant growing company helps our economy. You need to stop wishing companies were run by Mr Rogers, and start thinking of companies as engines that create jobs and profits if they are lucky and smart enough to survive. If they aren't lucky or smart they die and go out of business, or get sold at a loss. See Pan AM, AMC, Digital Equipment. Many sucessful companies give back to the community when they can, but they can never lose sight of the pack of dogs nipping at their heels.

"Give me the days of a hand shake on and honest deal with a man I could trust anyday over this cluster ****"

Those days are here. And years ago. And tomorrow. There has always been people with no character, and people with high character. Always will be. Your job is to tell them apart before you shake their hand on a deal, not an easy job, I know.

I'm a newbie here. In this thread alone I've been impressed (with a few exceptions) with the caliber of the discussion and the (almost) lack of hostility. Not all forums are as civil.

It takes a lot to change someone's opinion, and as several people mentioned nothing here changed their mind. I think you were one of those. I don't expect people to change their mind overnight. But the reason I spend the time to occasionally type out a long response is that at some point, some time, somewhere, someone will write something that informs me and teaches me something. And hopefully I can pass something on as well. Those are useful exchanges. If all you do in a forum is stand on your soap box and recite your opinions as loud as you can, and never actually listen and consider other viewpoints, then of course you'll never change your mind.

 

[Link-Belt]

Mister Moose you have contridicted yourself in the same post. You say like I corporatio don't play fair.Then you say the day of the honest hand shake is still here. You did say it was up to us to recognize the honest man how ever by your own words corporate America isn't honest and I should stop looking for it.

 

[shoturtle]

This one has not gotten testy and pretty much very polite. So unlike others everyone is well behaved.

 

[garfunkle24]

Many sucessful companies give back to the community when they can, but they can never lose sight of the pack of dogs nipping at their heels.

ROFL Do you really believe that? Are you that naive? Besides publicity, why would an amoral profit motivated legal entity give anything to anyone?

What about corporations that are already making obscene profits and then spend some of those profits on lobbying to create, change or stop legislation to allow them to abuse their workers and the environment?

What about the CEOs who run their company in to the ground for a temporary increase in the value of their stock options and then jump ship?

 

[Link-Belt]

I think the reason the mods are letting this go on is because for the most part we are playing nice there have Bern a couple of instances where this could've turned testy but it seems like as soon as that moment arises this thread heads in another direction. It truely is like a runaway train but a great fun ride that should go down in some debate history book someplace.

 

[Mister Moose]

Many sucessful companies give back to the community when they can, but they can never lose sight of the pack of dogs nipping at their heels.

ROFL Do you really believe that? Are you that naive? Besides publicity, why would an amoral profit motivated legal entity give anything to anyone?

What about corporations that are already making obscene profits and then spend some of those profits on lobbying to create, change or stop legislation to allow them to abuse their workers and the environment?

What about the CEOs who run their company in to the ground for a temporary increase in the value of their stock options and then jump ship?

I didn't elaborate on what motivates the companies that make charitable donations. Their motivations vary. What is amoral abut profit?

What do you define as an obscene profit?

CEOs who run their company into the ground obviously aren't a good choice. What are you going to do, have the government run all the companies? Or maybe the government should do all the hiring? Jusy how do you propose to eliminate mistakes from the workforce?