Finally ready to fill this thing

[smuth10]

I am finally ready to fill my radiant heat system and would like those of you with more experience to look over my system before I do so. I tested it with air and there are no leaks. Here are the specs:

1200 sq\ft, R19 in the walls, R 30 in ceiling
Slab on Grade, 4-300' loops
Takagi Condensing HWH
SE michigan
33% Propylene Glycol
Still need to extend the condensate drain valve

I bought an isolation valve kit thinking this would help me fill the system, but realized after that it is pretty much just for flushing the hwh. My main concern right now is filling it properly with the way it is setup. I have also added a pressure gauge that is not in the pic. Can I just use the hose bib connections on the other end of the manifolds?

Another question - I have read that you cannot fill your system if the slab is under 32 degrees, but I am assuming this is only if you are using 100% h2o, correct?

 

[2000xpsd]

I have almost the exact same system, filled it day and it's been running since. I have a high delta t right now but hope it lowers as the slab heats up

 

[Rookie2]

You can fill at the manifolds. I think you need a hose bib at the very top ! I have mine extended up higher than the air scrubber. It makes removing the air and filling much easier. Run the pump only for several hours to work most of the air out. Then you may need to check it and top it off over the next few months.

You can use a drill pump to fill the system, I forced it in till I could read any low pressure , I think I settled for 5 PSI ,then you can see the actual operating pressure as the floor finally reaches temperature.

 

[smuth10]

You can fill at the manifolds. I think you need a hose bib at the very top ! I have mine extended up higher than the air scrubber. It makes removing the air and filling much easier. Run the pump only for several hours to work most of the air out. Then you may need to check it and top it off over the next few months.

You can use a drill pump to fill the system, I forced it in till I could read any low pressure , I think I settled for 5 PSI ,then you can see the actual operating pressure as the floor finally reaches temperature.

Why would I need a bib at the top if I can use the ones on the manifold. Thanks for the tip on the pump only. I was just going to start the whole thing.

I have read 12 PSI to start with, is this not correct? I guess it makes sense it would increase as the temps go up.

I bought a Wayne PC4 pump to fill the system. I read they work well

 

[smuth10]

I have almost the exact same system, filled it day and it's been running since. I have a high delta t right now but hope it lowers as the slab heats up

I am no expert by any means, but I think your Spirovent needs to be at the top and you should have an expansion tank. Maybe the experts will correct me if I am wrong. How is it running?

 

[2000xpsd]

I am no expert by any means, but I think your Spirovent needs to be at the top and you should have an expansion tank. Maybe the experts will correct me if I am wrong. How is it running?

It's running ok no air wise...I think. There is expansion tank on it under the vent, it's just not in that picture.

 

[2000xpsd]

To answer the original question tho...I doubt the slab is 32 right now, with glycol tho should be no problem.
Can't really see in the pic where the hose bibs are but ideally they should be close together with a isolation valve in between. That way with the iso closed you can fill any the water will be forced thru the system and out the other bib. Then open the iso for normal use. If you go thu the manifold you may have a little bit of hard time with air in the process piping

 

[2000xpsd]

Oh yeah a pc4 pump is good...and I run 15psi, when drops below 10psi or do add more fluid and charge to 15psi again.

 

[Rookie2]

Why would I need a bib at the top if I can use the ones on the manifold. Thanks for the tip on the pump only. I was just going to start the whole thing.

I have read 12 PSI to start with, is this not correct? I guess it makes sense it would increase as the temps go up.

I bought a Wayne PC4 pump to fill the system. I read they work well

12 psi will work, use your pump to fill up thru the boiler (close the 4 lines on both feed and return sides) and push the air thru the system and around the floor lines one line at a time . You can use two or three washing machine hoses and push the coolant out into a bucket or container to purge most of the air and use the same container to feed the pump.

 

[smuth10]

I am just worried if I use the manifolds it is going to loop around and come right out of the other manifold bib and not fill the rest of the system. I hate having to re-do things, but in this case I am wondering if it would just be easier to add two more bibs with a shutoff in between at the top somewhere. It will be much harder to sweat those in after I get fluid in there and find out it does not work.

2000xpsd - My slab was 31.4 degrees yesterday and I am sure colder today, but I would think the glycol should do its job.

 

[Rookie2]

You can fill at the manifolds. I think you need a hose bib at the very top ! I have mine extended up higher than the air scrubber. It makes removing the air and filling much easier. Run the pump only for several hours to work most of the air out. Then you may need to check it and top it off over the next few months.

You can use a drill pump to fill the system, I forced it in till I could read any low pressure , I think I settled for 5 PSI ,then you can see the actual operating pressure as the floor finally reaches temperature.

What This Guy Said ! Put a hose bib in at the very top ! Say Thank You ! after you fill the system !

 

[smuth10]

I ended up cutting a section of pipe out and putting in two new hose bibs with a shutoff in between. Filling went very well so I am glad I spent the time to do this. It has been running for 3-4 hours now and I am having a problem with the HWH. It is vibrating really loudly. It started off quiet and is progressively getting worse. My first thought was air in the lines, but I filled everything one loop at a time and let it run for 10-15 minutes after just to make sure there was no air in there. The liquid was returning with no air bubbles. Even if there was a little air left wouldn't the Spirovent remove it? Any help with this would be great. I am worried it is going to blow up.

I am at 1.3-1.4 GPM. Is this too low?

 

[2000xpsd]

Mine did the same thing, make sure the flow meters on the hot side of the manifold are all backed out...and the white iso's too while your at it. There is also a metal heat shield inside the unit that is behind the heat exchanger that runs along the back panel of the unit that likes to make noise too. And make sure you CLEAN THE FILTER!!! You might have to do it s few times. Keep checking it and after it keeps coming out clean you can toss it for more flow

 

[2000xpsd]

that gpm is about right for your size... More important is the supply and return temp...it should have a high delta T until the slab fully heats up, and if your slab was 30F it's going to take a couple days

 

[smuth10]

I took your advice and cleaned the filter, but you obviously loose a lot of fluid doing this so now the damn thing won't run at all. The pump turns on but the hwh will not turn on. I think there is an air lock in there. I will have to get out the pump tomorrow and re flush the system. What a PIA, nothing is easy. If that does not work I may have to call Takagi in the am.



Thank you, I was hoping that was the case. I figured as much with the temperatures. I will report back once I finally have this up and running. It's too bad too, it was already up to 45 in there.

 

[2000xpsd]

Shut those iso valves at the bottom of the hwh, take the filter out and block the hole with your other hand, shake the filter in a bucket of water, jamb it back in...that's how I do it, I also have a y strainer and do it the same way. I don't loose much at all.
You right tho about the air. If the tak does not see flow it's not going to start...so yes you need to flush some water thru it...mine I have bibs on that side of the iso's so I can fill that side of the system easily.
Was the filter dirty?

 

[smuth10]

It was a little dirty. It was kind of hard to tell because everything on there was so fine. I am tempted to take the damn thing out of there. I can't see stuff that tiny causing a problem in the system, maybe I am wrong, but the more I think about it the more I think the filter may have been causing the vibration. It just sounded like the hwh was not getting enough flow.

I am also getting condensate backing up inside the bottom of the case and running out over where the gas valve is. I haven't extended the drain down to the floor yet so I am hoping that is the problem. There is a ton of condensate coming out as well. It has probably made 1.5 gallons in the 5 hrs I had it running. Is that normal?

 

[2000xpsd]

Don't rip it off just yet...it's a flow problem. That filter material is very fine, doesn't take much to plug it. Run some water tru it with your pump and charge it to 15psi again. Next time put your finger on the hole when you clean it.
You didn't answer yet , are the flow control valves backed out??? If you lift the red caps off them they should be like 1/2" of thread showing, almost unscrewed. If they are threaded in that will limit flow
Yes the unit will make a ton of water, get that plumbed. I don't know why it's in the bottom of the unit unless you have the cap still on the 1/2" port?

 

[smuth10]

Yes, they are backed off as much as I could, but I will double check.

Yes, the cap is off I just need to find out why I have water inside the unit. Going to flush it and get it running again in a few. Will report back. Thanks for all of your help

 

[2000xpsd]

I was just looking at your setup, one thing I noticed is you don't have a mixing valve. Yes you technically don't need a mixing valve but the tak's don't like to be run straight thru. I don't know if you noticed it but did you look at the hot outlet on the hwh??? It's only like a 3/8" hole, i don't know how these units can flow 6gpm but they do. anyways a mixing valve helps feed the flow control in the unit.
Also saw a 3 speed pump?? If the unit is still making that noise turn the speed down and see if it shuts up

 

[smuth10]

So I have cleaned the filter 6 or 7 times and I am now getting 2GPM, but it is still making the noise after about 5-10 minutes of running.

I called Takagi and he had me extend the 3" PVC outside for the input as he thought they may be too close to each other. This didn't help. He sent me some documentation about the noise coming from glycol boiling in a closed loop system. I guess glycol has a very low boiling point. He had me up the pressure to 25PSI and this helped a lot, but the noise is still there somewhat. Not sure what the max PSI for the system would be, any ideas?

I guess I feel like if this was really the issue I would have read about it here on the forum. I have spent many hours reading about these setups with glycol and have never read this. With that being said, it did work somewhat. Any input would be great

As for the 3 speed pump, I do have it running on high. According to Takagi 2GPM is where I should be. It is a little quieter on the second setting and the hwh will not even turn on on the lowest setting.

I have the Matsui isolation valves on the hwh, so I could technically use these to lower or increase the flow of the unit.

 

[2000xpsd]

So it sound like the more demand the worst it gets. For the hell of it try power down the unit, put dip #4 up and power it back up. This will move the fan to a higher altitude setting which will increase the fan speed. If it sounds worst with more demand maybe fan isn't supplying enough air to keep up with the burner. This what happens when the bees and bugs get in the fan.
Try it, see what happens. Check your manual to make sure I have the dip right too, should be 4 tho to bump it up from default

 

[smuth10]

I had tried that and the tech said that only works for the TK3 unit.


Turned it down to 110 degrees and the noise is gone. Do you think it is ok running at 110?

 

[2000xpsd]

110 will work depending on what you plan on getting out of it...in other words it's less btu to the floor...also less efficient depending on what your delta ends up being.
But interesting...you turn it down(less heat demand) and it stops. Sure sounds like a combustion problem, I don't see how the dip trick doesn't work but maybe ask the tech what does then because this sounds like your on the right track. Check the gas pressure to rule that out too

 

[smuth10]

It seems to be struggling to heat the shop at 110. The instant I move it up to 115 the noise starts. Does seem like a combustion problem to me as well. It was down to 1.5 gpm this morning so I cleaned the filter again and it is back up to 2 for the time being. I am also going to talk to the tech about the fan speed to find out if this model has a switch to increase. The tech also said having the remote for this model would be a great help as it has a lot of diagnostic features to it, so I think I may order that as well.

If that does not work I think I am going to have a pro come in to test everything for me. I just hope it is not a gas supply problem. I am not about to trench another line out there. According to everything I have read a 1" line should be plenty, but if it is not maybe I can convince the gas company to turn up the pressure enough to make it work.

Thanks again for your help 2000xpsd

 

[2000xpsd]

Well I think I solved your problem...it's AIR. How so??? I'll tell ya...
So last night I got home and went to check on my system, while I was there I figured I'd clean the line filter. I usually put my finger over it like I said before but I found a rubber stopper so I thought that might be easier...and I could also take the filter over to the compressor and blow it out. Guess what happened when I was at the compressor...the stopper fell out and blew the water out of the hwh. I have iso's right off the hwh so I figured it would self fill and then I'd re-pressurization the system. I fired it back up and it sounded like ****...growning, sloshing, vibrating...just horrible. I knew it had to be air as it was running fine before but I figured this was exactly what you were experiencing I'd take the same steps you did to see how the changes effected the problem. It was easy stuff to try anyways so it wasn't a big deal:
1) with unit running at 120 and pump on 3 (I have a alpha pump) I checked the gas pressure...(natural gas) 7.7"h2o...perfect
2)checked flame, perfect, noise was coming from the heat exchanger area like you said so I shut the unit off and turned dip 4 on. Fired back up and the fan ran faster but it did not help. Shut off and put back #4 to off. Start back up still sounded bad
3) shut back off and hooked up the pump, closed super vent and ran the pump for a few minutes. Pressurized to 15 psi, put all valves to normal and opened super vent. Started, sounded like **** but better. Let it run for a few minutes and I could hear it surging so there was air for sure.
4) I bumped my pump speed down to 2 bars...it shut right up...pump back up to 3 bars, back to ****. It was late so put the pump back to 2 and figured I'd let it run the night in normal mode.
5) today I put back to 3, sounded better but still noisy...better tho. Shut off cleaned the filter. Shut the vent, isolated the valves for a fill. Ran transfer pump for a few minutes. I noticed too when I first looked at the system that the psi had dropped to 10, so I knew it had worked some air out over the night. Pressurized the system to 22psi, that's all my pump would make, closed and normalized valves, opened super vent. Started up, nice and quite...put pump on 3, nice and quite.
So there you go...it's AIR

Glycol likes to entrain small air bubbles, when it in the system. I think letting it sit, or cycling it on off over night like I did, breaks up the bubbles. This then let's the super vent do its job better...at least from my experience.
So be patient and try to get the air out of it. I know easier said then done but you'll get...patience

 

[goneflyin2002]

Yep air will make noise for sure.
Run the pump by itself for a couple days without the hwh running. It could take a few days to get the air out. Microbubbles!
Mine took almost a week to get silent. Though when I built my system, i put the air separator on the cold side instead of the hot side (not optimal). Still works great, just slower to get the air out.

 

[smuth10]

I am assuming by super vent you are talking about the spirovent? I figured there would be micro bubbles left in the system, but I thought it was the job of the spirovent to remove those, no?

Sounds like I need to shut it down and run my transfer pump for a little while and then like goneflyin suggests, just run the grundfos pump by itself for a little while. I will try this tomorrow. If it works I owe you some beers 2000xpsd

 

[2000xpsd]

It will work. One thing too when I powered off my hwh it went back to 120, after it was running and it was all quite again I turned the temp back up to 130, it did not like that as it made that death noise again. Turned the tstat down and let the hwh turn off. Start back up and it was fine. I looked in the manual and it says not to turn adjust temp while running. So for what ever reason don't adjust temp while running.
...and yes "spirovent" ...autocorrect on my phone calls it "super vent"

 

[smuth10]

Ok, thanks. Just wondering why the air doesn't escape through the spirovent like it should. There can't be that much in there after running the transfer pump for 10+ minutes.

 

[2000xpsd]

Stick the discharge of the pump back in a bucket and see how many tiny bubbles come out. Then once these bubbles are in the system they either have to go past the vent or dissipate on their own. First problem is your not moving a lot of liquid. There is probably 15-20 gallons in your system...your only moving 2gpm. Two, the bubbles don't always flow with the liquid so they are not really passing the vent every 30-40 mins. Three, they are going to want gather in the hwh, it's a high point and the hottest water. Four, glycol likes to hold bubbles longer.
pressurizing the system helps move and collapse the bubbles

 

[smuth10]

So I tried flushing the system again for 15-20 minutes and now I have major problems. It didn't really run much throughout the day as I only had it set on 50, but when it did run it was on 120 degrees and seemed to be running fine. I went out there tonight and the pump was running and not the hwh. I cycled everything down and watched it come back up. The gpm went from 1.7 to .4 and then the hwh shutdown. I tried flushing again and several restarts and the same result.

At this point I am pretty pissed off\frustrated. Not sure where else to go from here, but I am pretty sure there is a major problem somewhere. I think I need to call in a pro at this point unless anyone has any ideas. I feel like I have exhausted all of my abilities at least. I pressure tested the lines to 100 psi prior to install so I don't think there is a leak, but I am out of ideas. I had to shut it down so I will need to wait until Monday to get a hold of someone. If anyone knows of someone in the SE Michigan area please let me know.

 

[smuth10]

So I decided to close off the last 3 loops and try to purge air out of the first loop only. I could not believe the amount of air in there. The problem is I let it run for over 20 minutes and there is still a substantial amount of air coming out. So much so that you can hear it running through the system. I tried the second loop only and same result. It has to be drawing in air from somewhere, but I pressurized everything to 30+ psi and waited over 30 minutes and it does not budge. I don't get it. The only thing I can come up with is the Wayne pump is sucking in air when it is running. It sounds a little funny to me and the priming plug does not screw in well.

Does anyone else use one of these that may have had a similar problem. If that's not it I am out of ideas. Any help would be great as I am ready to pull my hair out.

 

[Burl]

I hate to get in the middle of this topic, but I have a similar system, but heated with a hot water tank. The one thing that I don't see in your system is a vent, something to get the air out of the lines. I have two, at the highest point of my system, and this is how I got the air out of my system, though it did take a while, maybe a couple weeks. I have since changed tanks (this summer) and let it run "cold", and got the air out good.

 

[2000xpsd]

Do you have the spirovent closed when your running the transfer pump??? If it's open it will **** air

 

[goneflyin2002]

S I could not believe the amount of air in there. The problem is I let it run for over 20 minutes and there is still a substantial amount of air coming out.

This can easily happen on a first fill up. If there is fairly slow flow rates in your loops and you have some high spots in the tubes (might have moved around some during the concrete pour) then the air will hang around in the high areas. Hit it harder with the flow rate like you did, doing each loop individually and you'll flush the air out.

 

[smuth10]

Do you have the spirovent closed when your running the transfer pump??? If it's open it will **** air

Ummmm. I feel like an idiot, but no and that was a thought as I was doing this as it seemed like it was sucking air. It did not come with a cap, but I will cap it off and try again tomorrow. If this works I now owe you two cases of beer

 

[smuth10]

This can easily happen on a first fill up. If there is fairly slow flow rates in your loops and you have some high spots in the tubes (might have moved around some during the concrete pour) then the air will hang around in the high areas. Hit it harder with the flow rate like you did, doing each loop individually and you'll flush the air out.

That Wayne PC4 pump has a pretty high flow rate and I let it run over 20 minutes for just one lop and the air was still coming out strong. Like 2000xpsd said, it may be getting sucked in at the spirovent. Is this common knowledge and I just missed it?

 

[smuth10]

I hate to get in the middle of this topic, but I have a similar system, but heated with a hot water tank. The one thing that I don't see in your system is a vent, something to get the air out of the lines. I have two, at the highest point of my system, and this is how I got the air out of my system, though it did take a while, maybe a couple weeks. I have since changed tanks (this summer) and let it run "cold", and got the air out good.

I have a spirovent at the top

 

[brewchief]

Run just the circulator, try for at least an hour per loop, shut off the other three and just let it run through one loop at a time. Add water as needed to keep pressure up but other then that let the circulator move the water in case the transfer pump is pulling air in. When you have done all 4 loops start over and do them again.

Spirovents can get gunked up, most commonly with flux from soldering, there should be instructions on opening it up and cleaning it, don't try it with out the instructions as you can damage them with improper disassembly.