Fire prevention

[Al B]

Hi all I’ve been lurking around for a wile now. Reading all everyone has to say and being quite impressed by people’s knowledge. Among other things I do, I am a volunteer EMT with my local firehouse. Last Tuesday I was called out at 1:00 AM for a structure fire. As you may guess the structure was a garage. The owner lost everything including a 1953 Chevy truck, 2006 Porsche, Two brand new BMW bikes, two older bikes, and of course HIS ENTIRE SHOP. This got my wondering, since I am in the process of building my garage, what, if anything, are people using for fire prevention in their garages? I know Griot’s garage sells dry power units that mount to the ceiling and automatically trip at 155 degrees. What about a sprinkler system? Can a sprinkler system be used in a house that uses well water? After all I have a limited amount of water available. Don’t ask me how I know that. Anybody have any other ideas?

 

[markviii]

A few days ago someone started a thread on General Discussion about fire extinguishers:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61428

There may be something ideas on there.

Chris

 

[Al B]

I read through that, all good info but a fire extinguisher does no good if no one is there to use it. I’m thinking of something automatic. Like a sprinkler system or the device I spoke of from Griot’s garage. Just wanted to know if those were the only two alternatives.

 

[trbomax]

I am installing 2 sprinkler heads around my indoor wood furnace in the new shop. You will need a 1" supply line from the well, and a well/pump that will deliver 6gpm minimum for each head,so in my case I need to flow 12gpm,not a problem. You also need to contain the area that you want to sprinkle at cieling hight. In my case,the furnace will be in a 8'x8' 3 sided room,off the high bay area,so I need to header off the open wall so as to contain any heat from a fire in the room,thus setting off the heads.I will also have 2 high heat sensors,one in the furnace area,and one in the high bay just outside it. These will trigger a led rotateing flasher on the side of the building faceing the house. Pic is the room,and chimney support box in place. The walls will be 5/8 fire rated as well.I am thinking maybe to install high heat sensors in the two shops on either side of the furnace room as well,but they would be connected to a different beacon, of a different color.The fire situation here is really critical since I am located a few miles from a volunteer FD,and so far off the road that no one would ever see it if it did burn untill it was too far gone to save.

edit) my post on the fire extenguisher thread was intended as entertainment,not REALLY my opinion.

 

[Al B]

So I gather in order to do my entire 30x40 garage I would need a lot more water than my current system. I guess a separate well and pump would be best. I think the dry chemical would be a lot cheaper.

 

[trbomax]

So I gather in order to do my entire 30x40 garage I would need a lot more water than my current system. I guess a separate well and pump would be best. I think the dry chemical would be a lot cheaper.

Not really. A properly supplied head will do a 12' dia. area. Put a couple in what you would call the "hot spots" like I am.A useable well should flow 12gpm. You notice though, in my pic there are cpcv water lines. These are only for sinks,toilet, hoses,not the heads. This water is normally turned off when we are not there. A dedicated 1" bp line will supply the heads that will not be turned off.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I have not run into the residential sprinklers yet. I know in some cities, they are making them mandatory. Are they the greatest and best thing since sliced bread ? Not sure. I know a commercial system will knock down/extinguish a fire pretty good, but the amount of water they flow is tremendous.

The one problem I see with what trbomax, (not knocking, I appluad your concern for fire safety) if the power is out, i.e. lightning stike or breaker box fire, the the well pump will not work and will render the system useless.

As far as fire prevention, the smartest thing to do is atleast carry plenty of insurance, even if you are merely renting carry renters insurance.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If you have a monitored security system in your house, install heat rise detectors in the garage and connect them to the system. They won't stop a fire, but the system will alert the fire department as soon as possible which may make the difference between suffering some damage and losing the whole thing.

Of course, take steps to avoid fires in the first place...make sure there's no dodgy electrical wiring, watch for stray sparks from grinding or welding, safely store flammable liquids, etc.

 

[trbomax]

I have not run into the residential sprinklers yet. I know in some cities, they are making them mandatory. Are they the greatest and best thing since sliced bread ? Not sure. I know a commercial system will knock down/extinguish a fire pretty good, but the amount of water they flow is tremendous.

The one problem I see with what trbomax, (not knocking, I appluad your concern for fire safety) if the power is out, i.e. lightning stike or breaker box fire, the the well pump will not work and will render the system useless.

As far as fire prevention, the smartest thing to do is atleast carry plenty of insurance, even if you are merely renting carry renters insurance.

Absolutely correct,the well pump IS the weak link,but out here its all we got! I'd like a monitered system,but then I'd need a phone line to the shop and the house.

 

[fireguy]

Wireless fire and burg alarms are available. Contact a fire sprinkler co who has a FPE or NICET III designer on staff who is familiar with residential sprinklers. CPVC is easy to glue up if you have the plans. But, first check with your insurance company and building inspector. Not all areas will allow homeowners to install a sprinkler system.

National Fire Sprinkler Association
Fire Team USA
Home Fire Sprinkler Coalition
American Fire Sprinkler Association

 

[trbomax]

Wireless fire and burg alarms are available. Contact a fire sprinkler co who has a FPE or NICET III designer on staff who is familiar with residential sprinklers. CPVC is easy to glue up if you have the plans. But, first check with your insurance company and building inspector. Not all areas will allow homeowners to install a sprinkler system.

National Fire Sprinkler Association
Fire Team USA
Home Fire Sprinkler Coalition
American Fire Sprinkler Association

Wouldnt cpcv defeat the whole purpose of a sprinkler system?. I would think that in a fire,plastic would be one of the first things to go.The guy thats putting mine in said "iron pipe",no negotiations.I really dont know,but plastic doesnt make sense to me for fire prevention.

 

[nate379]

Keep in mine that fire sprinklers are not designed to save property but rather lives.

 

[trbomax]

Keep in mine that fire sprinklers are not designed to save property but rather lives.

I guess thats true in most cases,but in my situation,its about the building and contents.

 

[Underdog]

Keep in mine that fire sprinklers are not designed to save property but rather lives.

Another concern is leaks, Our court house had a sprinkler system pipe burst over the weekend some years ago, said it was a bad hub joint, cost up wards of several hundred thousands to clean up, Just saying every cure has its problems.

 

[70redbee]

New sprinkler installs now use a plastic pipe instead of iron and it is glued together and pressure tested. That's what is used in VA. and Md. anyway. Don't know what it is called but is orange in color.

 

[nate379]

It is CPVC and new installs still use metal in commercial. Maybe residential you can use the plastic though.

 

[Teken]

As it was stated in another GJ thread, I am installing 6 of these Griot canisters evenly spaced around the ceiling.

Given our extremely cold climate water is not an option. Doesn't matter even if it's some sort of weather rated liquid, it simply would not disperse correctly.

That is why after extensive research and asking all the people in the field what was the best option as to a fully automated system that wasn't affected by extreme cold, it was the Griot canister system.

Keep in mind, the garage will have four standard ABC fire extinguishers also mounted in all four corners of the building. Also a water hose will be in place during the summer months as well, just for added measure.

The only other thing I can't stress enough is using fire rated dry wall and insulation. I know a lot of members who use exposed OSB, or similar material. But, in my mind that negates all the fire equipment being on hand when the entire building is a source of fuel.

Reduce, or remove the source of fuel = Less chance of something catching on fire. And on the off chance that something does catch on fire, if the walls and insulation, and doors are all fire rated that extra 2-4 minutes of fire surpression will make all the difference of your house / shop standing or not.

That is why all the things in my garage are fire rated, and items which are a potential fuel source are all stored in metal box's . . .

 

[mrb]

another important thing is 'fire watch'. Dont weld or grind then close up shop and go inside the house. Hang around for 30 min....

 

[Teken]

another important thing is 'fire watch'. Dont weld or grind then close up shop and go inside the house. Hang around for 30 min....

Absolutely . . . There was a GJ member in the Free Parking forum who's wife placed a cigarette **** out in a plant holder. Only to realize that the plant holder didn't simply have plain ol dirt in it. It had a host of the new styled fertilizer etc which is a source of fuel, which did catch on fire and almost burned down the entire house if it wasn't for the keen eyed posty!

How does that relate to the garage? Many of us have used welders, sanders, cutters, etc. It only takes one small shard to land on something and smolder, than catch on fire . . .

Always wait awhile and do a walk through in the immediate work space to ensure all tools are properly stored, cooled, and secured . . . Any chemicals that are done with, should be locked in a approved metal fire box.

Any dirty shop rags, also to be thrown into another secure metal box . . .

 

[stricht8]

It doesn't matter if you don't have good water supply. You can use water storage tanks and a pump. This is routinely done.

 

[banzaitoyota]

Are the Griots Canisters UL Tested and Approved? Are they certified by FM?
Just wondering...

 

[brats.n.harleys]

you can also get stand alone CO2 canisters, with a sprink head on them that will pop at various temps (135, 175, etc..)
http://snehafire.com/images/product_images08.jpg
Ive installed and inspected fire systems for 4 years, and for a Garage, i think these would be the best way to go without spending a lot of money, you just mount em on the ceiling. maybe one over welding spot, one over electrical box, one over paint/flamables. etc...
And as far as calling the FD, you Putting in a small panel, such as a Notifier fire warden 50 panel, with some heat detectors wouldn't be a bad idea, the panel has existing phone jacks on it for a primary and secondary line. it even has 4 nac circuits on it that you could hook up a bell, or horn/strobe to to have outside your garage door, so when the fire department got there, they would know exactly where to go, and not mess with knocking on the door to make sure it was right (assuming they got there quick and there were no evident signs from outside)

 

[tez929rr]

And as far as calling the FD, you Putting in a small panel, such as a Notifier fire warden 50 panel, with some heat detectors wouldn't be a bad idea, the panel has existing phone jacks on it for a primary and secondary line. it even has 4 nac circuits on it that you could hook up a bell, or horn/strobe to to have outside your garage door, so when the fire department got there, they would know exactly where to go, and not mess with knocking on the door to make sure it was right (assuming they got there quick and there were no evident signs from outside)

Years ago my fire department got called out to a structure alarm for an activated smoke detector. We looked through all the windows and didn't see any smoke. The alarm company insisted they had positive indication of smoke and we finally broke in and found a pot boiling over on the stove. We had all the smoke out of the house before the homeowners arrived

Lessons:
1. the smoke detector may have saved the house. I immediately had detectors wired into our alarm system.
2. It's way easier to break into houses than I realized. Later I went to a forcible entry class and discovered it was even easier than I thougjht tio break in without damaging anything.

 

[Teken]

Years ago my fire department got called out to a structure alarm for an activated smoke detector. We looked through all the windows and didn't see any smoke. The alarm company insisted they had positive indication of smoke and we finally broke in and found a pot boiling over on the stove. We had all the smoke out of the house before the homeowners got arrived

Lessons:
1. the smoke detector may have saved the house. I immediately had detectors wired into our alarm system.
2. It's way easier to break into houses than I realized. Later I went to a forcible entry class and discovered it was even easier than I thougjht tio break in without damaging anything.

I agree, that is why layering any system with different types of sensors will give you more protection than simply relying on just one . . .

By code the garage has a heat / smoke detector wired to the whole house. Even though it is there I installed a wireless smoke / fire / CO2 sensor which both measures using photoelectric and ionizing.

Nobody can ever be 100% sure what kind of fire will occur in the garage or in the home. So having multiple sensor types provides the home a lot more protection.

 

[bonneyman]

.... I’m thinking of something automatic.....

How about something like this?

Both of these probably 70's vintage extinguishers were found in the furnace rooms of old homes. The glass bulbs are filled with a liquid halon. A spring loaded pin is held in place by a low temp solder switch. The heat of the fire melts the solder, permitting the pin to break the glass and release the liquid. It vaporizes, and, being heavier than air, smothers the fire. Later, it totally evaporates and leaves no stains or residue.
I have deactivated these and mounted them to use as conversation pieces. My dad though they were neat. But they could still be used in an enmergency by throwing the glass bulb at the base of the fire.

 

[Jack Olsen]

you can also get stand alone CO2 canisters, with a sprink head on them that will pop at various temps (135, 175, etc..)

Ive installed and inspected fire systems for 4 years, and for a Garage, i think these would be the best way to go without spending a lot of money, you just mount em on the ceiling. maybe one over welding spot, one over electrical box, one over paint/flamables. etc...

Do you know of a source for those?

 

[nate379]

Which code is that? No requirement for smoke detector in garage in this end of the state.

. .

By code the garage has a heat / smoke detector wired to the whole house. Even though it is there I installed a wireless smoke / fire / CO2 sensor which both measures using photoelectric and ionizing.
.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Do you know of a source for those?

http://snehafire.com/products.html

Griot's Garage sells something similar. (edit - I guess this was mentioned earlier.)

 

[Jack Olsen]

Thanks. I saw that, but it's the manufacturer, in India. I don't think they do retail sales.

 

[White 99]

The use of CPVC in a residential sprinkler system is behind the fire proof sheet rock. That should be some of the last areas to affected by a normal fire. I think the most of the house would be lost before the CPVC would fail.

Also these small sprinklers are only designed to put out a small fire before it gets big. Most household sized pumps won't run more that a few at one time. If the fire isn't put out by the first one or two quickly I don't think we are going to be able to save the house. But most fires start small and should be able to be put out with the first sprinkler and hopefully very little water. A gasoline fed fire could be difficult to put out under any conditions but a super expensive foam system may be the only thing that would work.

 

[NUTTSGT]

For those of you in freezing areas and wanting sprinklers systems, the "wet systems" will freeze. You need to have a source of heat to keep your bldg warm enough not to let the plumbing freeze.

You can't keep it from freezing, you need a "dry system" and it uses compressed air, to keep the water out the lines till a sprinkler head pops. When this happens, the water pressure over come the air pressure and water fills the lines and comes out the sprinkler head.