Flouescent / LED Retrofit

[67gto]

I have 21 8' single pin Fluorescent fixtures in my garage with magnetic ballasts. That's a total of 42 bulbs. They are 14 years old. when they are on, the hum is load and annoying. In the cold weather half of them no longer start. I have been looking at the LED retrofit bulbs on ebay, where all you have to do is eliminate the ballast and wire the 120 line voltage right to the bulbs. Trying to figure out how much brighter the LEDs will be, how much power savings, etc. My fluorescents are not high output. Trying to figure out how many watts those old magnetic ballasts are using. As all of the ballasts now are electronic. the lumens for one fluorescent is approx 4,400 lumens. The LED's I have been looking at are 45 & 48 watt bulbs that throw 6,000 lumens. I have seen some with double rows of LED's that are 7,200 lumens, but way to expensive. For 42 48 watt LED bulbs, I'm looking at $600 - $700. Wondering if I should just upgrade to electronic ballasts or electronic high output ballasts, or go with the LED bulbs ??

 

[tfi racing]

You will save anywhere from 40 to 60 percent on your power cost to run LED over your antique F96 lamps,but sadly you have no choice but to spend some real cash to do so.I would probably get the conversion kits to change your fixtures to 4 lamp,install electronic ballasts and T8 LED lamps.Not sure what you are pricing,F15T8 LED tubes are not even that expensive in Canada and we still get royally raped on them up here.

 

[RAYJAY]

got my retro fit kits here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-Retrofi...509701?hash=item282c468045:g:7fEAAOSwc-tY1T3f

got the bulbs here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T8-LED-Tube...hash=item25d6390802:m:mYEAa6ETjSQxfTHArM95O-g

best thing i ever did we had 12 8 footers int he shop the bulbs were so good we did the rest of our lower level with them, drop ceiling trough-er lights 4 bulbs each looks like our saving to be about 20 to 30 a month on power here in Pa,

and we can not even tell there led bulbs, 6k i got are about 2 to 2.5 brighter then the old 8 footer we had in the shop, and we did use 6k 8 footers bulb before.

main reason for do this was re-tubing the 8 footers, the newer florescent bulbs do not hold up, used to get 4 to 5 years out of a set of bulbs was getting about a year out of the newer 8 footers.

the 20 watt bulbs are equal to one 4 foot 38 to 40 watt florescent bulb.

on the 8 footer your running 2 80 watt bulbs =160 watts the leds are only 80 watts total same fixture.

 

[67gto]

So not just going to 8' LED's, I should convert each 2 bulb 8' fixture to a 4 bulb 4' fixture. Overall cost savings & the 4 foot bulbs last longer ??? My fixtures can be easily converted, the kits are cheap, only a few bucks. I figured the LED 8 footers have been out for awhile now, reliability wouldnt be a problem.

 

[Platonic Solid]

If UL listed matters to you try http://www.beeslighting.com/T8-LED-Bulbs-s/1838.htm

 

[RAYJAY]

So not just going to 8' LED's, I should convert each 2 bulb 8' fixture to a 4 bulb 4' fixture. Overall cost savings & the 4 foot bulbs last longer ??? My fixtures can be easily converted, the kits are cheap, only a few bucks. I figured the LED 8 footers have been out for awhile now, reliability wouldnt be a problem.

tried the 8 foot leds were not that great, light output was just ok, they all sag in the center need to be either wire ******* or the do make a retailing bracket for it,

also found that the 4 foot leds are cheaper and better quality than the 8 footers, only reason i can see this is because every one uses the 4 foot bulbs

as for cost it ran me $6.00 a bulb plus the conversion kit to 4 bulb was $9.00 for a total of $33.00 each fixture.

added pictures of the conversion don't mind the mess ......

 

[RAYJAY]

I UL listed matters to you try http://www.beeslighting.com/T8-LED-Bulbs-s/1838.htm

wow 13.00 a bulb ... plus 9.00 for the kit $61 a fixture vs $33 the ROI would take a lot longer

 

[Bert_]

It sound like you have 2 lamp F96T12 strips. If you are running decent 75w lamps each lamp will give 5000+ lumens per lamp, each fixure has 2 lamps.

I would not recommend going to the work of changing them all to electronic ballasts. At that point you might as well go with a more modern light.

If they have trouble starting in cold weather make sure you aren't using 60w lamps, they are only rated to start in 60* temps. 75w lamps perform much better in the cold

I have re lamped a couple of places that were using 60w lamps. I put in 75w lamps and the hum was almost non existent after the switch. I believe the 60w lamps will also shorten the life of the ballasts

 

[Ditch]

All I can say is that LEDs are worth having to me. The difference was amazing.

 

[Platonic Solid]

wow 13.00 a bulb ... plus 9.00 for the kit $61 a fixture vs $33 the ROI would take a lot longer

http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/t8r-48-22l-50k-b.htm

$8.49 per bulb 2200 lumens 18W = 122 Lm/W UL Listed & free shipping over $75.

 

[RAYJAY]

http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/t8r-48-22l-50k-b.htm

$8.49 per bulb 2200 lumens 18W = 122 Lm/W UL Listed & free shipping over $75.

the ones i got are $6.00 each 20w 2400 and ul listed

Item specifics
Condition:
New: A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item in its original packaging (where packaging is ... Read more
about the condition
Type: T8 Tube Light
Wattage: 20W
MPN:
TH05TBZK1071801~302
Base Type: G13 Brand:
Unbranded
Color Rendering Index (CRI): >80 Country/Region of Manufacture: China
Operation Environment: IP40 ,-65~~125F Material: Aluminum alloy back
Certification: UL CE ROHS Lifespan: 50,000 Hours
Color Temperature: 3000K 4000K 6000K Lumens: 2400

 

[Platonic Solid]

If they're UL listed then they'll have a file number beginning with E###### printed in the bulb label with the UL Logo. Please provide E######.

Here's the Diva Lite Spec sheet (linked)

Here's the Diva-Lite DLC report showing almost 135 Lumens per Watt.

Diva Lite UL Listing File: #E472082

 

[PhysicsDude]

I replaced 32W bulbs with 17W Phillips LED retrofits and the LED's are very close to the same brightness. Perhaps a bit brighter. The lights are so much better though, no more buzzing, waiting for ballast to heat up in winter, flickering with a bulb is nearing end of life, etc.

 

[67gto]

Thanks for all the info. The fact that the 8 footers are prone sagging bothers me. By using the 8' bulbs, I can eliminate the step of converting the fixtures to 4'. Plus the lumen output of the 8' LED bulbs is high compared to the 4' bulbs. A shop I go to converted to LED's, and the overall brightness is awesome. They had several different types of fixtures installed; 4', 8', and these square fixtures that looked like nothing I've ever seen before. I was talking to the owner, and the square fixtures are 13,700 lumens. but the cost is $119.00 each. They call them high bay fixtures, made by lithonia. I went to home depot and saw them there. If I had to put a support strap in the center of the 8' bulbs it would be less work than converting the fixture to a 4 bulb 4' fixture.

 

[bob15]

You can read what I did in the thread: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364059

It was worth the upgrade, just to get rid of the hum alone..........

 

[67gto]

(Also posted this reply to the thread bob15 linked me to), OK, You guys are confusing me with light output numbers, & ballast power consumption. I went to lowes & Home Depot tonight and was looking at bulbs & ballasts. Now the 8' LED bulbs I was looking at on ebay are 48 watts & put out 6,600 lumens, several different manufacturers, brands, etc. , they all advertise 48 watts/ 6,600 lumens. The standard single ****** F96T12 75 watt bulbs at Lowes & Home Depot all say 4,400 lumens on the boxes, Cool white, daylight, whatever. they are all 4,400 lumens. So by switching to the LED's I will have a brighter bulb with less power consumption. When I was there I also looked at standard electronic Ballasts. the power consumption of the ballast is 1.13 amps X 120 volts = 135.6 watts for 2 F96T12 Bulbs. If I wanted to use HO bulbs I would have to swap out all of the tombstones & buy HO ballasts. When I was there I also saw 4' LED retrofit bulbs. All of the 4' bulbs they had were 1.200 Lumens. So If I were to reconfigure the 8' fixtures for 4' LED Bulbs, I would only have 1,200 Lumens. SO when you calculate lumen output do you add all the lumens together and that gives you the total output, or the quantity of bulbs does not matter. Two 8' LED's at 6,600 lumens each = 13,200 lumens, or it doesnt matter how many bulbs you have, you will still have a maximum lumen output of 6,600 ???. That's why the 4 footers dont seem like an option at only 1,200 lumens.

 

[Platonic Solid]

6,600 lumens @ 48W is highly unlikely in a cheap Chinese eBay bulb. I don’t believe the claim.
1,200 lumen output LED tube sounds like you’re looking at 2ft tubes. Most 4ft LED tubes are between 1,600 and 2,400 to mimic the fluorescent bulb being replaced. Maybe you’ve found 4ft energy saving LED bulbs that, yes, save you energy, and leave you in the dark.
Yes, you just add the lumens up for total fixture output.
Make sure you’re not confusing color temperature CCT measured in degrees Kelvin (4000K, 5000K, 6000K) with Lumen output.

 

[SwampCat]

Menards has some Sylvania drop in tubes on sale for $6.

 

[67gto]

I was back at Lowes again today, I was looking at several boxes of 4' LED bulbs, different color temperatures, but they all had the same 1,200 Lumen output. Last night I was looking at approx 30 different brand 8' LED bulbs on ebay. The prices ranged from $599.00 to over $700.00 for quantity of 50 bulbs. the majority were 6,000 lumens. the ones that were 6,600 had a double row of LEDs & were more expensive. I have seen the 4' bulbs on ebay that are around 2,000 to 2,400 lumens. I'm sure these ebay sellers are inflating the bulb specs.

 

[cybrdyke]

I was back at Lowes again today, I was looking at several boxes of 4' LED bulbs, different color temperatures, but they all had the same 1,200 Lumen output. Last night I was looking at approx 30 different brand 8' LED bulbs on ebay. The prices ranged from $599.00 to over $700.00 for quantity of 50 bulbs. the majority were 6,000 lumens. the ones that were 6,600 had a double row of LEDs & were more expensive. I have seen the 4' bulbs on ebay that are around 2,000 to 2,400 lumens. I'm sure these ebay sellers are inflating the bulb specs.

GTO-
It's funny cuz I tried again today to search for these products. I looked on Lowes website and cant find any 4' tubes that are 1200 lumens. I also looked on ebay and cant find any 6000 lumen 8' tubes. We must be on different planets or something. I'm pretty good at searching.
It would be nice if you could post a link to some of these items.
CD

 

[67gto]

Here you Go;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Pin-...hash=item1a070279ba:m:mRlB2xVr--r7WRoWge3H4Ww

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Pin-...hash=item1c7fbcfe3e:m:mTC3FqInV16dRXz2-5tefCQ

When you search on ebay, type "8' single pin 48 watt LED Bulb" , depending on what you type into the search window, the number of results vary greatly.

I cant find the 4' ones online, I will go to Lowes tomorrow & take a picture of them.

 

[Platonic Solid]

A few observations/comments on eBay LED bulbs:

• The majority are not UL, ETL or CSA Listed, even when they advertise that they are.
• Any bulb that says “unbranded” cannot be UL, ETL or CSA Listed.
• CE label is meaningless.
• The lumen output and wattage claims they’re making is calculated from the lumen output and wattage of the individual LEDs. No driver efficiency or LED junction temperature reduction (efficiency loss due to heat generated by the LED) is being made. Thus, either the actual wattage used is much higher (likely around 60W @ 6000 lumens) or the actual lumen output is much lower (likely around 4800 lumens @ 48W). Since no customer is likely to spend $600 to have a bulb photometrically tested, and none of these bulbs have DLC Listing or offer IES files from independent laboratory testing, the lies run rampant.
• Clear lensed bulbs have higher lumen output than opal (milky) lens. (recommend opal lens as clear creates painful point light source eye irritation).

 

[cybrdyke]

Here you Go;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Pin-...hash=item1a070279ba:m:mRlB2xVr--r7WRoWge3H4Ww

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Single-Pin-...hash=item1c7fbcfe3e:m:mTC3FqInV16dRXz2-5tefCQ

When you search on ebay, type "8' single pin 48 watt LED Bulb" , depending on what you type into the search window, the number of results vary greatly.

I cant find the 4' ones online, I will go to Lowes tomorrow & take a picture of them.

GTO- Thanks for the links.
I guess if you're selling LED lamps at $90 each, you dont have to sell very many to make a nice living. In comparison, Philips makes an instantfit 8' tube, 35 watts, 4200 lumens, and sells it for under $18. That's a brand name product that's made right. That's just one example. I strongly recommend that you visit the local electrical supply house to see what brand they carry. It'll likely be Philips, GE, Sylvania, Satco, Keystone....all quality brands. None of this cheezy ebay ****. If they dont have it in stock, they can order it for you.
Incidentally, 4000 to 4500 lumens is the correct amount for the 8' LED tube. It's the right amount to replace the fluorescent lamp that you are removing.
Good luck,
CD

 

[67gto]

When I go on the different ebay sellers I have been typing in a quantity of 50 bulbs. I have been getting prices from $599 - $700. 42 of those phillips bulbs at $18.00 = $756.00. pretty close for a brand name reliable bulb. I need 42 bulbs for 21 fixtures. I figured if I bought bulbs from ebay I would need some extras.

 

[Fueler]

I converted 6 8 footers and 10 4 footers.
No conversion stuff needed. Throw away old ballast, tie up the wiring differently and drive on.
Got my bulbs from this fellow. Got the daylight version.
http://stores.ebay.com/Led-Unlimited?_rdc=1

4th year now and no failures. I even dropped one from about 11 feet. Automatic cringe and shut eyes. Didn't break. It is still running.

 

[RAYJAY]

When I go on the different ebay sellers I have been typing in a quantity of 50 bulbs. I have been getting prices from $599 - $700. 42 of those phillips bulbs at $18.00 = $756.00. pretty close for a brand name reliable bulb. I need 42 bulbs for 21 fixtures. I figured if I bought bulbs from ebay I would need some extras.

one reason i convert to the 4 footers, was all of my tombstone's on my 8 footer lights needed to be replaced

 

[Fueler]

Agree with RayJay. Any additions I will be using 4 footers. Replaced a couple of ends on the 8 fts. 4 footers are easier to handle and store.

 

[moparguy01]

I went on a website called DHGATE.com and ordered up some LED replacement bulbs. They were much cheaper. a friend told me about them and they made a HUGE difference in his garage. They are all chinese copies, but they do work. Out of 3 cases he bought, 2 bulbs didn't work, but the price was less than 1/3rd what he would have paid for them at Home Depot or Menards.

 

[cybrdyke]

When I go on the different ebay sellers I have been typing in a quantity of 50 bulbs. I have been getting prices from $599 - $700. 42 of those phillips bulbs at $18.00 = $756.00. pretty close for a brand name reliable bulb. I need 42 bulbs for 21 fixtures. I figured if I bought bulbs from ebay I would need some extras.

Just so you know, I was using the Philips price just as an example. The Philips lamps runs ON THE BALLAST, not by bypassing the ballast. AND...it has to be an electronic ballast.
The ebay lamps are all bypass lamps.
Just wanted to make sure you knew that.....
CD

 

[67gto]

I dont mind removing the ballasts & bypassing them, As it wont cost me any money. buying the kits to convert the 8 foot fixtures to 4 footers would be an additional expense for the 21 fixtures. Would using the bulbs that do not require removal of the ballasts use more power than bypassing the ballasts. As I have the older magnetic ballasts, not electronic ballasts.

 

[VinceG]

I switched my 9 florescent to the Fiet fixtures from Costco. all of my old fixtures had ballast issues. the new lights hug from existing chains. we will see how they hold up. I had to replace several bulbs and Ballasts every winter.

 

[cybrdyke]

I dont mind removing the ballasts & bypassing them, As it wont cost me any money. buying the kits to convert the 8 foot fixtures to 4 footers would be an additional expense for the 21 fixtures. Would using the bulbs that do not require removal of the ballasts use more power than bypassing the ballasts. As I have the older magnetic ballasts, not electronic ballasts.

The 8' tubes that run on the ballast are 35w and you need to add 6w for the ballast, per lamp, so 41 watts per lamp.
Your challenge will be to find one that claims to work on the old magnetic ballast. Dont buy them if they dont say this specifically.

Or you can bypass the ballast and use 8' LED tubes.

The tandem kit should only cost around $10 each. You can probably find it for less. Then you install 4 x 2000 lumen 4' lamps @ about 18 watts each.
Like many others, I'd go with this set up.
CD

 

[Never_Satisfied]

I used Hyperikon bulbs from amazon for my 4ft lights I retrofit. After arguing with myself for 20 mins that there is no way you just cut all these wires and connect the hot and neutral ( note: I work on spacecraft for a living). Actually it was just that easy. They send you new tombstones if yours break or are not the unshunted version. It really takes about 5 minutes to do it and they have a 5 years unlimited warranty. I have replaced a total of 24 bulbs inside my home, power bill has dropped $74 in the summer.

 

[67gto]

Finally got my LED bulbs. Found them on eBay. Single pin 8' 65 watt / 7,800 lumins. We shall see how the quality, brightness, etc is. Keeping my fingers crossed. Should be here by the end of next week. $655.00 for 42 bulbs / $15.59 per bulb & Free shipping.




Product type :T8 LED Tube , 8FT 2.4M
led quantity: 65w= 576pcs smd2835
Base : FA8 ,
LED chip: CREE SMD2835 Led chip
Power :65W
Voltage:85-277V
CRI: ≥85R

PF: >0.95

Working temperature:-30--+60°
Color : Warm white 3000~3500K

Nature white 4000~4500K

Cool white 6000~6500K

Lumens : 120LM / W

Rated life : 100.000H

Material : Imported PC + 6063 Aluminum

Warranty : 3 years
Certificates : CE, ROHS, FCC,SAA,CSA,UL
Application : office, supermarket, hotel, factory, indoor, etc.
Available color : white, warm white or cool white

 

[Platonic Solid]

FYI - CREE doesn't make an SMD2835 LED

 

[67gto]

I googled CREE SMD2835 Led Chip, and a crapload of them came up for sale, Maybe something new, or counterfeit chips using the Cree name ??

 

[ard]

They don't need to be 'counterfeit'..just lying on specs, knowing 99% of people wouldn't have a clue how to check.

I am convinced that a very large percentage of the specs one reads online are lies. Color temp, lumens, watts, CRI... Just shoveling **** out the door.

How do you protect yourself? Buy from people with 'skin in the game'- aka a reputations whereby if they lie and get caught, it isn't a risk they would take.

Or, it is so cheap, you don't care.

 

[ddawg16]

Who says you have to do it all at once.

Retrofit the lights that are going out.

And when you realize how much better the lighting is, you will say '**** it' and swap out everything

 

[Platonic Solid]

I googled CREE SMD2835 Led Chip, and a crapload of them came up for sale, Maybe something new, or counterfeit chips using the Cree name ??

2835 refers to length width dimension in mm thus: 2.8 x 3.5
Here is a link to CREE's entire LED component product line: http://www.cree.com/led-components/products.
When you google CREE SMD2835 Led Chip you get lots of alibaba hits.

 

[cybrdyke]

I am convinced that a very large percentage of the specs one reads online are lies. Color temp, lumens, watts, CRI... Just shoveling **** out the door.

^^^This x 1000.
There is no reason for ebay sellers to tell buyers what chip they use. They only do it so that they sound legitimate. An educated consumer will understand this and run away when they see this information given.
Further, even if a chip's manufacturer name is given (like Cree), it doesn't mean that it's any damn good. All manufactures reject a ton of their own chips for various quality reasons. In China, it's not unusual for shady manufacturers to dumpster dive for rejected chips with the Cree name on them.
Companies like Cree, Philips, Osram, etc commonly sue crappy companies like Feit, LOA, etc for using their name on boxes, advertisements, etc, without their approval.
CD