Stuart in MN
Well-known member
Note that this is a four year old zombie thread, bumped to the top by a spammer.
fluid film ya or ney?
- Thread starter artieb
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Jigstick
Member
Bump
Being winter I figured others may be looking into rust proofing. I’m back and forth between Krown and Fluid Film. I have both available for professional application. I’m concerned about the rubber swelling that keeps popping up in my searches. Any of you guys had issues with rubber swelling?
Being winter I figured others may be looking into rust proofing. I’m back and forth between Krown and Fluid Film. I have both available for professional application. I’m concerned about the rubber swelling that keeps popping up in my searches. Any of you guys had issues with rubber swelling?
Prospecter
Well-known member
No rubber issues. Last car without FF needed rust through repair at 8 years and 90k miles. First truck with FF has no rust at 10 years and 100k miles. Both Dodge.
Two Speed
Well-known member
If taking in an entire car, I do Krown. Been using Krown for a few decades, I am a satisfied customer. Keep all my cars until the wheels fall off, last car was a 20 year (was already a rust free 10 year old ex-florida car when I got it), yearly krown coated and was still virtually rust free underneath and door bottoms (year round use on salted/calcium chlorided roads), somebody hit it and it got written off.
If you are doing spray can touch ups: Fluid Film, no question. Krown in a spray can is utter garbage and has no where near the rust preventation as the stuff that gets sprayed on from the bulk tanks at a krown location.
Alex.
Jigstick
Member
Any problems with Krown swelling window mouldings or rubber anywhere on the car?
pelletman
Well-known member
I use it for lots of things, among my favorite is fork lift forks to help them slide on the carriage. Makes them glide almost effortlessly when changing the width of the forks.
machsnell
Well-known member
Can you use it on an existing truck if the frame and other exposed areas already have rust with any efficacy or help to mitigate future rust?
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iagsxr
Well-known member
Yeah, that's one of it's advantages. If you spray traditional undercoating over existing rust sometimes it delaminates and forms a pocket that just holds moisture.
machsnell
Well-known member
Got it. That's great for us a little late to the ff game.
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DO NOT use FF on a GM frame, it will melt away the frame coating. Anything that is painted ,it's fine. Traded my 2011 gmc in and dealer called , the service manager asked me, what did you use on your truck, its the cleanest 2011 we've ever seen that's 8 years old.
machsnell
Well-known member
What if frame is rusted a bit? Just hit the rusted areas?
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Hilltopmasonry
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Fluid film does soften the Frame wax that GM uses on their heavy duty trucks, I would use Nox rust from daubert chemicals which is the original coating to touch up any areas that need attention
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Jazz1
Well-known member
Krown is better product than Fluid Film IMO
Krown has more wax so it builds a coating. I use these products annually on my ‘91 Toyota including treating inside frame rails
Krown has more wax so it builds a coating. I use these products annually on my ‘91 Toyota including treating inside frame rails
machsnell
Well-known member
Hilltopmasonry
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No problem, i have a 2500 hd and i touch up the frame with noxrust and fluid film everything else
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twarren
Well-known member
I find TSC has Fluid Film in spray cans on for $11.00 a couple of times per year here in Ontario.
Twarren..........
Twarren..........
9GUY9
Well-known member
Those looking for gallon cans locally, check with John Deer dealers. I get a gallon every fall from the local dealer.
I will also add my name to the satisfied users.
Other points to add or reinforce;
-it smells terrible for a week or so after applying.
-wear a respirator when applying,. I did not once, and felt like I had a lung infection afterwards.
-Heat it up to apply using a spray gun. I have a garage oven, and stick the whole gallon in at around 100-120 degrees. At that temp it sprays great.
-I use a cheap pneumatic low pressure paint gun that I have dedicated to FF.
I will also add my name to the satisfied users.
Other points to add or reinforce;
-it smells terrible for a week or so after applying.
-wear a respirator when applying,. I did not once, and felt like I had a lung infection afterwards.
-Heat it up to apply using a spray gun. I have a garage oven, and stick the whole gallon in at around 100-120 degrees. At that temp it sprays great.
-I use a cheap pneumatic low pressure paint gun that I have dedicated to FF.
I use fluid film on all my vehicles, it washes off so has to be reapplied but it works if its on there. Anything not getting blasted off is like new. Cab mounts and areas getting blasted by tires have surface rust but no more. It does take coating off GM frames but so does Maine roads. I hit frame on my service truck just the same
smalltown
Well-known member
If I spray fluid film inside the doors will it run out the bottom drains and down the outside of the rocker panels ?
P.S. Would fluid film spray ok using a hand pump sprayer from home depot ?
P.S. Would fluid film spray ok using a hand pump sprayer from home depot ?
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trainer
Well-known member
I make homebrew rustproofing by melting a (new) wax toilet bowl ring in 2 litres of cheap 30 weight motor oil. Spray it on with an old pressure feed spray gun while it's still hot.
Denwood
Well-known member
I’ve been personally researching and testing various corrosion CPCs for about 30 yrs now. This includes owning a few cavity guns, a shop hoist, and long term ownership of several cars including an 84 VW Scirrocco, owned as a daily driver and autocross car for 25 yrs, as well as 1990 VW Westfalia for about 15 yrs. The Westy sold for 28K three yrs ago...
I live in Northern Ontario where salt and sand is a daily occurrence in winter with temps hitting -35C.
You can read a rather exhaustive discussion at the samba I fired up a few yrs ago: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/archive/index.php/o-t--t-606491--.html
1. Rustcheck, Krown and Fluid Film will wash off exposed chassis parts in just a few hours of driving in heavy rain. On interior panels they fare better but really should be applied every year. This fellow’s real world tests and video are spot on :
2. Mike Sanders grease is awesome as a cavity chassis wax but needs to applied at 90-100C. I have a five gallon pail, and heat tape wrapped gun to apply it. It is a major PITA to apply.
3. Noxudol 700 won a three year test on body panels done by Classic Car Magazine in the UK. Google it. I did research on the product including a patent review and MSDS data. Both Noxudol 300 (black, heavier wax for exposed chassis) and Noxudol 700 (amber color, for interior or proetected panels) have active ingredients to react with and slow/stop rust. I suspect that is why Honda, Toyota and Isuzu (others?) have all specified these products for use in their recall programs. It is easy to apply and the 300/700 are solvent free.
I used the 300/700 on our latest ride, a 2014 Highlander and can confirm that it has not washed off after many pressure washes..and can support the manufacturers suggestion of quick yearly touch ups vs full reapplication. I can also see surface rust under the amber 700 wax is slowly turning black, which makes sense given the active anti-rust chemicals they incorporate. Initial costs are more, but factor in the savings in subsequent years.
Honda spec’d Noxudol 300 and 700 for a frame rust recall.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2010/RCRIT-10V436-1234.pdf
Toyota also spec’d Noxudol 700 and in some cases 300 on multiple truck frame rust related recalls: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2009/RCRIT-09V444-6633.pdf
I paid full pop for these products and sadly get nothing from Noxudol, however it is my current number #1 recommendation. There are pics in my thread if you search it for Noxudol references. There are literally thousands of anecdotal accounts on the inter webs ..very few have any real testing behind them. The above though is based on many, many hours of both research and personal testing.
I live in Northern Ontario where salt and sand is a daily occurrence in winter with temps hitting -35C.
You can read a rather exhaustive discussion at the samba I fired up a few yrs ago: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/archive/index.php/o-t--t-606491--.html
1. Rustcheck, Krown and Fluid Film will wash off exposed chassis parts in just a few hours of driving in heavy rain. On interior panels they fare better but really should be applied every year. This fellow’s real world tests and video are spot on :
2. Mike Sanders grease is awesome as a cavity chassis wax but needs to applied at 90-100C. I have a five gallon pail, and heat tape wrapped gun to apply it. It is a major PITA to apply.
3. Noxudol 700 won a three year test on body panels done by Classic Car Magazine in the UK. Google it. I did research on the product including a patent review and MSDS data. Both Noxudol 300 (black, heavier wax for exposed chassis) and Noxudol 700 (amber color, for interior or proetected panels) have active ingredients to react with and slow/stop rust. I suspect that is why Honda, Toyota and Isuzu (others?) have all specified these products for use in their recall programs. It is easy to apply and the 300/700 are solvent free.
I used the 300/700 on our latest ride, a 2014 Highlander and can confirm that it has not washed off after many pressure washes..and can support the manufacturers suggestion of quick yearly touch ups vs full reapplication. I can also see surface rust under the amber 700 wax is slowly turning black, which makes sense given the active anti-rust chemicals they incorporate. Initial costs are more, but factor in the savings in subsequent years.
Honda spec’d Noxudol 300 and 700 for a frame rust recall.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2010/RCRIT-10V436-1234.pdf
Toyota also spec’d Noxudol 700 and in some cases 300 on multiple truck frame rust related recalls: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2009/RCRIT-09V444-6633.pdf
I paid full pop for these products and sadly get nothing from Noxudol, however it is my current number #1 recommendation. There are pics in my thread if you search it for Noxudol references. There are literally thousands of anecdotal accounts on the inter webs ..very few have any real testing behind them. The above though is based on many, many hours of both research and personal testing.
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machsnell
Well-known member
Denwood just dropped the mic and walked out after that one.
Good info here.
Thanks Denwood.
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Good info here.
Thanks Denwood.
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Denwood
Well-known member
Mach, you’re welcome. My search was/is based on frustrations with the current products, poor application practices in some cases (hence the cavity guns) and the desire to minimize wasted cash.
John, Fluid Film has endured the process to certify some applications which for aviation is a lengthy and expensive process. It does displace moisture. It also washes off easily. This makes it a good choice (if actually used) on coast guard helicopters where inspections are frequent and maintenance is highly structured.
That doesn’t make it the best choice to protect a car chassis in the salt belt. Dinitrol for example is used by Bombardier locally to protect new transit rail cars. They have several products, and you guessed it...they are different for cavities vs exposed chassis.
The reasons Toyota, Isuzu, and Honda have specified Noxudol on frame rust recalls likely are related to these properties:
1. The 700 product has a very high creep rate..something like 5” after application. It never fully dries so remains in a waxy texture and will self heal, particularly on hot days.
2. The 300 product is intended to be applied after the 700, on exposed chassis only as it has a lower creep rate, but is heavier bodied to resist the constant blast of sand and salt that it will see in the winter.
From some patent research on the Noxudol product ingredients:
Sulphonic acids - rust cleaner
overbased calcium salts - oil additive to prevent rust
pentaerythritol - referenced in several corrosion inhibition papers.
polymers with isophthalic acid - referenced in corrosion resistance material
tall oils - used as a base for corrosion inhibitor products
It would appear that along with solvated paraffin wax, there are actually a few active ingredients that react with rust.
There is zero evidence that Krown, Rust Check or Lanolin (Fluid Film) have any of these substances integrated. They all have a high creep rate so for unexposed interior panels are ok if you are only looking to displace moisture.
However if you’re looking for a system that stays put, doesn’t wash off, stays plastic (never dries fully) and includes active rust slowing chemicals, the choices narrow considerably. The only products that I can recommend fully are the Noxudol 300/700 system. There may be others however I’ve yet to see the the science..backed up by actual long term tests.
The only downside is that the same qualities that make it good, also make it a bit messy if you’re working on chassis bits down the line.
It’s a mistake to assume that because a product is used in military, that it is the best choice for your car. A quick look at some of the specs would suggest that LPS, Dinitrol and Cor-Ban show up repeatedly in the approved category for several aircraft.
To pass the spec: MIL-PRF-85054 has got to be some challenge for sure: http://chemsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/MIL-DTL-85054.pdf
Among a surprising array of tests (including low temp flaking, wetness after cure, very high temp flow, salt walter displacement etc.), the treatment must demonstrate zero corrosion after 28 days using the ASTM B117 on 2024 aluminum. The ASTM salt chamber test can be found here: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/003/astm.b117.1973.pdf
It's obvious that any company attempting to achieve aviation certification has to invest a lot of money to get their products approved for use. As far as I know, of my proposed lists, only Dinitrol has passed a few of the specs. It's also not performed the best in the auto tests though. Food for thought.
John, Fluid Film has endured the process to certify some applications which for aviation is a lengthy and expensive process. It does displace moisture. It also washes off easily. This makes it a good choice (if actually used) on coast guard helicopters where inspections are frequent and maintenance is highly structured.
That doesn’t make it the best choice to protect a car chassis in the salt belt. Dinitrol for example is used by Bombardier locally to protect new transit rail cars. They have several products, and you guessed it...they are different for cavities vs exposed chassis.
The reasons Toyota, Isuzu, and Honda have specified Noxudol on frame rust recalls likely are related to these properties:
1. The 700 product has a very high creep rate..something like 5” after application. It never fully dries so remains in a waxy texture and will self heal, particularly on hot days.
2. The 300 product is intended to be applied after the 700, on exposed chassis only as it has a lower creep rate, but is heavier bodied to resist the constant blast of sand and salt that it will see in the winter.
From some patent research on the Noxudol product ingredients:
Sulphonic acids - rust cleaner
overbased calcium salts - oil additive to prevent rust
pentaerythritol - referenced in several corrosion inhibition papers.
polymers with isophthalic acid - referenced in corrosion resistance material
tall oils - used as a base for corrosion inhibitor products
It would appear that along with solvated paraffin wax, there are actually a few active ingredients that react with rust.
There is zero evidence that Krown, Rust Check or Lanolin (Fluid Film) have any of these substances integrated. They all have a high creep rate so for unexposed interior panels are ok if you are only looking to displace moisture.
However if you’re looking for a system that stays put, doesn’t wash off, stays plastic (never dries fully) and includes active rust slowing chemicals, the choices narrow considerably. The only products that I can recommend fully are the Noxudol 300/700 system. There may be others however I’ve yet to see the the science..backed up by actual long term tests.
The only downside is that the same qualities that make it good, also make it a bit messy if you’re working on chassis bits down the line.
It’s a mistake to assume that because a product is used in military, that it is the best choice for your car. A quick look at some of the specs would suggest that LPS, Dinitrol and Cor-Ban show up repeatedly in the approved category for several aircraft.
To pass the spec: MIL-PRF-85054 has got to be some challenge for sure: http://chemsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/MIL-DTL-85054.pdf
Among a surprising array of tests (including low temp flaking, wetness after cure, very high temp flow, salt walter displacement etc.), the treatment must demonstrate zero corrosion after 28 days using the ASTM B117 on 2024 aluminum. The ASTM salt chamber test can be found here: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/003/astm.b117.1973.pdf
It's obvious that any company attempting to achieve aviation certification has to invest a lot of money to get their products approved for use. As far as I know, of my proposed lists, only Dinitrol has passed a few of the specs. It's also not performed the best in the auto tests though. Food for thought.
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finn
Well-known member
Just picked up a gallon of FF @ Advance Auto. Order online for store pickup, use the 20% off coupon, and pickup @the store.
$8 cheaper than Amazon.
$8 cheaper than Amazon.
I did the same thing yesterday!
VCheng
Member
Thank you for your informative posts.
What is your opinion on Boeshield T-9, specially when compared to Noxudol products?
Denwood
Well-known member
VC, you're welcome 
I came across this study: https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/bit...uipment-from-Deicer-Corrosion_Final-12.35.pdf
They did a very clinical study on various coatings, including Krown T40 (popular around here). Like FF, it washes off easily...so they recommend 19 applications per year based on lab tests. If you are using Fluid film..apply it often!
Also, if you're using FF under your car..don't pressure wash it. Great example of why you should not do that here:
(skip to 1:22 for results if you like)
That fellow attached 8 metal coupons to the underside of his truck in Michigan. The FF coated coupon that was washed regularly rusted badly...the unwashed did much better. So either skip the pressure wash underneath or apply FF after you wash it as per the Alaskan recommendation on Krown (similar product). 19 applications a yr is a lot! I really like well done real world tests like these as they don't attempt to "simulate" road conditions. The metal coupons are directly exposed to the sand blasting, salt blasting, and pressure washing that a real truck sees.
VC, Boeshield T9 has come up in discussions. Because it's not wax based, it likely will have the same issue with washing off.
The best products seem to be those where a system is prescribed, and so far at least are "wax" based.
1. Higher viscosity (high creep) for inner panels, and in some cases as a pre-coat for 2.
2. Heavier body, self healing for exposed chassis.
The rust frame recalls I linked to earlier from Honda, Toyota and Isuzu were all expensive processes..and all prescribed the same thing as above. These rust frame recalls have been extended to later model Tundra trucks..and Noxudol again is part of the dealer kit. None of them prescribe yearly check ups (more money) so again, I believe that's why they used a wax based solution.
Dinotrol has a similar system for inner and outer chassis parts, but real world tests are pretty hard to find. I do know for a fact that Bombardier uses a lot of it on the train car chassis built locally.
I came across this study: https://scholarworks.alaska.edu/bit...uipment-from-Deicer-Corrosion_Final-12.35.pdf
They did a very clinical study on various coatings, including Krown T40 (popular around here). Like FF, it washes off easily...so they recommend 19 applications per year based on lab tests. If you are using Fluid film..apply it often!
Also, if you're using FF under your car..don't pressure wash it. Great example of why you should not do that here:
That fellow attached 8 metal coupons to the underside of his truck in Michigan. The FF coated coupon that was washed regularly rusted badly...the unwashed did much better. So either skip the pressure wash underneath or apply FF after you wash it as per the Alaskan recommendation on Krown (similar product). 19 applications a yr is a lot! I really like well done real world tests like these as they don't attempt to "simulate" road conditions. The metal coupons are directly exposed to the sand blasting, salt blasting, and pressure washing that a real truck sees.
VC, Boeshield T9 has come up in discussions. Because it's not wax based, it likely will have the same issue with washing off.
The best products seem to be those where a system is prescribed, and so far at least are "wax" based.
1. Higher viscosity (high creep) for inner panels, and in some cases as a pre-coat for 2.
2. Heavier body, self healing for exposed chassis.
The rust frame recalls I linked to earlier from Honda, Toyota and Isuzu were all expensive processes..and all prescribed the same thing as above. These rust frame recalls have been extended to later model Tundra trucks..and Noxudol again is part of the dealer kit. None of them prescribe yearly check ups (more money) so again, I believe that's why they used a wax based solution.
Dinotrol has a similar system for inner and outer chassis parts, but real world tests are pretty hard to find. I do know for a fact that Bombardier uses a lot of it on the train car chassis built locally.
Last edited:
VCheng
Member
VC, you're welcome
VC, Boeshield T9 has come up in discussions. Because it's not wax based, it likely will have the same issue with washing off.
But they claim it has wax in it:
I am too new here to post links, but this is part of their blurb:
"T-9’s unique formulation of solvent carrier and paraffin wax coating was engineered to penetrate crevices deeply, displace moisture, dissolve minor corrosion, and leave a clean, waxy coating with lasting durability—without using Teflon, silicone, fluorocarbons, MEK, or acetone."
h t t p s : / /boeshield.com/why-boeshield/
Denwood
Well-known member
VC, my mistake. If you look at Boeshield’s MSDS, I see two promising items.
https://www.theruststore.com/msds/MSDS-Boeshield-T-9-Aerosol-2015.pdf
OIL SOLUBLE SODIUM SULFONATE
SORBITAN TRISTEARATE
Both of those chemicals are associated with corrosion control. My one comment on the paraffin wax is that the properties of high crevice creep vs high resistance to abrasion/washing are pretty hard to combine with one product. If testing this product, my guess is that it would perform well on inner panels, but not as well on exposed chassis parts. I’d predict that it would do better than KROWn, Rust Check and Fluid Film though.
JD, zero help on the Amsoil :-(
https://www.theruststore.com/msds/MSDS-Boeshield-T-9-Aerosol-2015.pdf
OIL SOLUBLE SODIUM SULFONATE
SORBITAN TRISTEARATE
Both of those chemicals are associated with corrosion control. My one comment on the paraffin wax is that the properties of high crevice creep vs high resistance to abrasion/washing are pretty hard to combine with one product. If testing this product, my guess is that it would perform well on inner panels, but not as well on exposed chassis parts. I’d predict that it would do better than KROWn, Rust Check and Fluid Film though.
JD, zero help on the Amsoil :-(
d.mcfarland
Well-known member
I'm trying it out this winter.
Judging by the color that the product dries (it dries rather than staying fluid) I can say that it is still there after a few months. Whether or not it did anything is obviously yet to be seen.
The true tests are the ones after x number of years no rust is present.
Denwood
Well-known member
If you like the super clean engine bay of an Arizona car, don't look any further This is the Noxudol 700 after a few days. After a few days it ends up the consistency of soft parafin wax, and stays that way. Below is the left side of the engine bay a few days after Noxudol 700 application. All interior cavities are sprayed with this product.
An intake boot clamp (surprisingly rusted after only a few years!) which shows some rust reaction with the Nox 700. After more time has elapsed, the rust should end up neutralising to a black color, if the 3 year tests done by Classic Monthly in the UK are any indication.
The Noxudol 300 is black, and thicker...and a real mess to spray. After about a week it's not washing off though, unlike Rust Check and Krown which have proved pretty useless on exposed chassis parts. Like the 700, the 300 stays soft and waxy. Basically you're just touching it up once a year.
This is the Noxudol 700 after a few days. After a few days it ends up the consistency of soft parafin wax, and stays that way. Below is the left side of the engine bay a few days after Noxudol 700 application. All interior cavities are sprayed with this product.
An intake boot clamp (surprisingly rusted after only a few years!) which shows some rust reaction with the Nox 700. After more time has elapsed, the rust should end up neutralising to a black color, if the 3 year tests done by Classic Monthly in the UK are any indication.
The Noxudol 300 is black, and thicker...and a real mess to spray. After about a week it's not washing off though, unlike Rust Check and Krown which have proved pretty useless on exposed chassis parts. Like the 700, the 300 stays soft and waxy. Basically you're just touching it up once a year.
machsnell
Well-known member
This has been a great thread. I have 40 plus trucks and the same in diesel equipment that push snow. I have been cleaning and cleaning after every event when warm enough. I am super pumped to ha e something that actually works to treat vehicles and machines.
Denwood to spray it just warm it up and have areas dry and clean yes? Also this is safe for all undercoating and rubber as well? Any areas not to spray?
Thanks again for the solid proven info.
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Denwood to spray it just warm it up and have areas dry and clean yes? Also this is safe for all undercoating and rubber as well? Any areas not to spray?
Thanks again for the solid proven info.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Mr onetwo
Well-known member
I'm sold on the Noxudol 300/700 system Denwood.Thanks for the info
99LeCouch
Well-known member
Great information! Something to look into once my pail of FF is used up.
How is the Noxudol applied? Specifically, could a FF spray gun apply it? I'm pretty invested in the FF system, and don't want to buy more application gear if possible.
How is the Noxudol applied? Specifically, could a FF spray gun apply it? I'm pretty invested in the FF system, and don't want to buy more application gear if possible.
Hilltopmasonry
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