Framing problem

[fwillison]

Walls went up yesterday (12.5 ft). Looked pretty racked, but I figured when they sheathed it today they would square it up.
I shouldn't have assumed.
Drove up to the build site and the wall was visually racked to me from 50 feet away.
I happened to have a plumb bob and hung it up on a random stud. From top to bottom probably a couple inches out.
I called my GC and he made excuses and said they "worked real hard to get it as plumb and level as they could". I said it was unacceptable. The GC said he informed the framing sub and asked the sub to call me to explain the "process" they went through.
I don't want an explanation of a process, I want a square, level and plumb building.
It would be a nightmare for the sheet rock and siding subs if left this way, it seems to me.
I have no experience in this though, and would appreciate those with knowledge to give me some advice on what I should do.

Thanks
Fred

 

[OccupantRJ]

You need to run their asses off. If they care no more than that, what do you think the rest of the building will be like?

 

[hicketts]

I wouldn't be real easy to hang the window either.

 

[RPH]

Agree with occupantrj on this. Totally unacceptable, square is not that hard. Tell the gc to fix it now. No more work until your happy with it.

 

[fwillison]

Is there any kind of reference standard?
I am being offered excuses by the GC and sub, and they act like I am expecting perfection.

 

[24ModelTFord]

Take a framing square and check the corners - bet they aren't even close.

Put a level on the floor - should be level.

Put a level on the top plate - should be level.

Put a level on a stud - should be vertically level.

That wall looks like a parallelogram to me. The window rough in looks a couple inches bigger on the left side than the right......

 

[p_mori7]

Is there any kind of reference standard?
I am being offered excuses by the GC and sub, and they act like I am expecting perfection.

YES. Stick a level on it vertically, and the bubble needs to be dead center between the lines.

Looks like somebody either didn't mark top / bottom plates correctly, or a helper held one end of the stud on the wrong side of the line.

That is shoddy work.

 

[jd_1138]

Make them fix it now. Once it's built out, it's too late. You don't want the leaning tower of Pisa.

 

[OccupantRJ]

:

Is there any kind of reference standard?
I am being offered excuses by the GC and sub, and they act like I am expecting perfection.

Tell them they are crazy as ****, and that I said so. People will only live up to your minimum expectations. Period. Tell them it's your way or the highway. With those attitudes, they would not touch anything else of mine. You had enough sense to use a plumb bob, they didn't even have sense enough to use a level and tape to cross measure. I'm pissed off FOR you.

 

[JPrato]

Stop all work now, that is way off. I would fire them and not let them touch another thing. That is pretty basic stuff and carpentry 101. It will only multiply when they put up the rest of the building. Nothing will be right and your pride and joy garage will look like the fun house at the local carnival.

My first post here, those pictures really motivated me to say something.

 

[Mike in Ohio]

Where your string is is where your sheetrock edges are going to be. That is totally unacceptable. As someone else said windows and doors will be a problem too.

I am going through this right now. We tore down a 30x44 and are putting it back up at my dads place. Working with used and twisted lumber you expect some problems getting things square.

It appears to me that you are using all new materials, it should not be a problem to get that square before putting the sheathing on and standing it up. Now they probably will have to take the sheathing off to get it right.

 

[ovilla]

They definitely need to fix everything. I can't even imagine trying to install insulation bats in there. There's a reason insulation and drywall already comes in standard widths, It's not rocket science and just takes being considerate of general framing standards. Seriously, even if the studs were a little crooked, they could easily straighten them out and hold them in place before installing them. Any GC who cares about your repeat business should have caught these issues before you ever saw them. I'm not sure if I'd even want these guys back and I'd definitely put a stop on any payments.

 

[PugetDude]

Sorry, fwillison, but the framing sub is totally incompetent and should be fired immediately. NO excuse for the piss-poor work, and there is no way to plumb the wall after it's been sheeted. I'd probably send the General Contractor packing too, if he's defending this ***********. A new crew needs to tear it down and start over, it will be cheaper to buy new studs and sheathing than to try to fix this. Besides, the original crew will cop an attitude and get even somewhere else.

You're not being unreasonable, you're just expecting the top-quality job the contractor promised you when you hired him.

 

[Architorture]

is there a building permit on the project? no building department is going to accept this kind of framing

 

[G_P]

How in hell can a construction company screw up that badly?
And to offer excuses instead of fixing it is just pathetic.

Sent via carrier pigeon.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Its not even close! Start again, I loathe rework period.

 

[b wojo]

100% agree with puget dude. Can the framing contractor and the gc. Make sure you document the issue with pics and video. Hire a new gc and check progress on new framing and other crews OFTEN. Although i had not built so much as a birdhouse in the past it is why i chose to build my 26x30 myself with much help from knowlegable friends and father in law. I did everything from supervising excavation to setting forms for footings and stem walls for concrete. I bought a couple good books on concete, framing and electrical and read tons. Did it take longer? yes. Did I make a few mistakes? you bet. But nothing compared to that mess that a pro framer claims. My building is within 1/4 inch square and dead nuts plumb. That is a colossal F-UP that I cant believe they present and expect pay for. They need to be gone cause if you make them re do it, they WILL screw you somewhere else.

 

[b wojo]

In addition to above, my local high school building arts program made of of 14-17 year olds does better work than that

 

[24ModelTFord]

Maybe it was the same guys who framed the epic shed?

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194923

 

[Bsj04]

Dude, fire that GC now. He's doing a **** job and just making excuses. I remember seeing you having problems with your concrete also. He's a hack, I'm building my own shop and no where near a "pro" but I just went out and checked mine and it's damn near dead nuts! I measured each wall along with floor plan diagonally, leveled and braced everything BEFORE sheathing. It's not magic, you were smart enough to be able to check it. I would hope the CG has done this before at least once and knows the proper way to do stuff.

 

[tcianci]

In your OP you mentioned "walls", so you need to have everything checked. A wall that is racked like that will obviously throw the adjacent wall out of plumb. Some contractors will apply sheathing after a wall is raised but there should be at least enough sheathing on the wall to keep it from racking before it's raised. Although it's hard to tell from your picture, it looks like they ran a triple top plate. While a triple top plate is not an altogether bad thing, the last layer of top plate shouldn't be installed until the wall has been straightened with spring bracing. That way, the last layer of the top plate serves to help hold the wall in the position established by the spring bracing. Another thing to look out for is to be sure that the framers carry the 16" OC layout throughout the whole wall. In your photo, it appears that the cripple studs above and below the window opening do not fall in the layout and it also looks like they don't fall over each other.

If you plan on salvaging the frame (which is possible) have your top notch framers remove all the sheathing from the building. THEN fire their sorry asses.

 

[PugetDude]

In addition to above, my local high school building arts program made of of 14-17 year olds does better work than that

I'll see your high school students and raise you an ADD Cub Scout pack hopped up on grape soda and red vines.

 

[CTyankee]

Yeah...that's gotta come down....

Are you building on a slab?...Is the slab level?...It looks like the wall was built laying down and stood up on an un-level surface. Whatever, the wall.....and everyone involved needs to be replaced..

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Pythagoras theorum, a^2 + b^2 = c^2 or 3,4,5. Measure from a corner horizontally 3' and mark it, from the same starting position measure vertically 4' and mark it. From mark to mark should be exactly 5'. If the width of the wall top and bottom and the height from side to side are equal, then the wall is built square and is perpendicular to a non-level slab. This is a real problem that will snowball if not fixed. I'm a retired sider and have fixed screw ups such as this but I charge to do so, and so will every sub-trade dealing with your building.
Good luck,

Richard

 

[Chitown_hillbilly]

Is it just the picture and everything being off a little, or is that Window really that out of Square?

And I would love to hear what the excuses were that they couldn't get everything square?

 

[Homerr]

I a draftsman, not a framer, but I agree these framers don't know what they are doing. There should be fire blocking at a 10' vertical maximum (just horizontal 2x), in this case it would normally go at 8' where the plywood edge is. The blocking would help straighten out the curve of the studs and give them a constant to work to.

 

[fwillison]

It's a tough situation, as I am busy as heck at my real job, have family issues with teenagers, a daughter just out of surgery, and trying to deal with this too is a real cluster.
I went back out to the site. Although dark I used the headlights of my truck and my cell phone "flashlight" best I could. Put a 5 ft level on many studs and all 4 corners.
The wall shown is definitely the worst. The others don't seem too bad. The 4 corners are reasonably good as well. I am no carpenter though, and have never framed more than a shed.
I think the other 3 walls have stud racking that seems no more than 3/4 inch over 8 feet. I stood up a 4x8 piece of OSB to simulate sheetrock, and the other walls at least allow the panel to hit the stud top and bottom (although often barely).
The wall in question seems almost like they put the studs on the wrong side of the mark on one side or something. They obviously had been working on this area quite a bit, and had made a makeshift scaffold on the outside of that wall.
The GC and framer plan to meet tomorrow to try to make it "better" but no talk of removing sheathing or anything. Mostly a litany of talk about how they did this and that to make it as good as possible.
I feel like I need an independent framer or maybe drywall guy to look at it and weigh in. If I just fire them, it'll mean a lot more stress and hassle for me trying to find someone willing to come in at halftime, major delays, not to mention arguments and possibly lawyers to squeeze all the joy out of the build.
Sheesh.

 

[wssix99]

Don't cave in. Just tell them that you will only pay for a properly built product.

If you have to hire someone else to come in, the existing walls go in the garbage - no big deal if you haven't paid for what's going in the dumpster.

Either way, its got to come down, be ripped apart, and re-done right.

 

[Sureshot]

I would think 1/4" out from plumb would be a lot and out of tolerance. I would shoot for 1/8" or less.

I bought a house that the previous owner had started finishing the basement and it was like your walls. Trying to save money I worked with it and after a lot of frustration it looked good but I would have been light years ahead ripping it out. It will fight you every step of the way.

How will you hang shelves or cabinets? Test holes and feeler wires?

 

[sweetcretin]

If you have any form of building code inspector for framing in your area, get them out their now. Get the inspector's opinion in writing and use it as grounds for terminating the framer and the GC.

It may seem that you're going to incur a major delay and added costs by doing this, but this isn't going to be the worst mistake that these guys make. Right now, you're out some framing lumber and maybe some sheathing. By the time these clowns can't get your roof trusses plumb, level, and square (which they will attempt to do by cutting up your trusses), they will end up costing you much more.

3/4" out of square over 8' is unacceptable. In 6 years of framing work, we never built new construction that was more than a 1/2" out of square over the ENTIRE WALL (I would say that 1/4" was typical). This is not because we were special, but because it's just not that hard.

With as out of square as your walls are, your windows, doors, and drywall are going to require major headaches to install and will probably leak, crack, and move because the walls are not transferring loads straight down which will result in constant movement under loading.

It should only take a day or two to dismantle all those walls with minimal material losses. Assuming they didn't do something stupid like cut every stud too short, a competent framer should get 90%+ reuse and be finished in a couple of days at most.


With all that said, is your concrete correct? For some reason I'm guessing it's not, and THAT is what is going to cost time, money, and headaches to fix.

 

[MrMark]

The problems always seem to start at the bottom and just get worse from there as everything is a cluster trying to correct for the initial problems.

I too guess the foundation is what is screwing up this wall.

 

[OccupantRJ]

In addition to above, my local high school building arts program made of of 14-17 year olds does better work than that

They would actually be better than what he had. At least the teacher would be checking the work.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Print this thread and show them other people's opinion of their "skills".

 

[zporta]

Whoa....

I don't know why they wouldn't sheath it while on the grounds to keep the panels square

Piss poor workmanship right there

 

[scarpozzi]

That's why I don't pay until the job is done....unless I know the guys and their work.

2 experienced guys can frame a wall like that in no time. Literally a matter of 10-15 minutes. I think it took us 5 hours to frame all four walls of my garage (30x30) including headers and attaching the sills to the block.

 

[Kevin C]

A level is usually not good enough on such a long wall. The top of the stud can be pretty far off and the bubble will still look OK.

I'm guessing they squared with a level.

As others mentioned, measuring on a diagonal is the best way to go ( or your plumb bob).

Are all the studs that far off or is it that you put your plumb bob on a warped stud?

1/2" is the max I would want to be out.

 

[DekeT]

Is this GC even licensed?

 

[Hawk]

Tell the GC to go pound sand. I built straighter walls in high school. (Back in the '60's) He should have at least gave you some vasoline.

By the way the easiest way is to get an inspector to look at it and write it up to cover your backside when you fire the GC.

 

[Imcrazy]

Small screwups as a building goes up compound themselves as the building progresses.

Your stress level will go sky high as you get further toward completion and things really start fitting bad. By that time the framing crew will be long gone with your money.

 

[buddyboy]

when an inexprienced person runs into a situation they have never seen, they will either call someone to ask how to deal with it or try to fix it on their own.

looks like your framers tried to fix it on their own and failed.

when your GC takes the side of the subs on poor workmanship then you're in trouble.

in·ex·pe·ri·enced
ˌinikˈspi(ə)rēənst/Submit
adjective
1.
having little knowledge or experience of a particular thing.

ex·cuse
verb
ikˈskyo͞oz/
1.
attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify.

fraud
frôd/Submit
noun
1.
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain