"Franzinator" build...IPS with no epoxy

[Franz1.0©]

Still here Carey, although I have laughed my glutiusmaximus off laughing at people who are so smart they can't understand American Standard English.

Thermal images don't misrepresent facts.

Heard you settled and made yerself a little berry picker.

 

[sberry]

Ya, got 3 of them running around. Glad to hear you are still kicking. I look here on the net but dont get around it much. The image is great.

 

[Franz1.0©]

Ya, got 3 of them running around. Glad to hear you are still kicking. I look here on the net but dont get around it much. The image is great.

My kickin altitude is slightly diminished due to Gout, but if I rig a harness I can still do the job on a 6 footer without hurting myself.
3 kids & a wife keepin an eye on you it's amazing you get any time on the AGnet.

Boy, once you got that animal husbandry thing figured out you really went to making future pickers, didn't ya.

Images from $30,000 cameras are real useful generally, even more so when the man with the camera points it where I wanted the first time. I would have been happier had he moved the frame up a few degrees, but for what I paid I can live with it.

Nicest thing about that picture is it confirms what I've thought all along.

Generation 7.2 now preconditions water for evaporative cooling of the shop. New tin going on IF it warms up, and I'll need to scratch under my air cooled helmet to figure out where to go next.
I tell ya Carey, this inventing is getting harder every year.

If you got any household oil tanks left from the chop saw I can clue you in on a real sweet setup.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Still here Carey, although I have laughed my glutiusmaximus off laughing at people who are so smart they can't understand American Standard English.

Thermal images don't misrepresent facts.

Heard you settled and made yerself a little berry picker.

Excellent and illustrative image! Welcome Franz!!!!

 

[Mikerla]

Bump

question 1: Does it make a difference if you use domestic or import fittings?
Question 2: I have a 5hp two stage 60 gallon compressor ila3606056, do i need two franzinators?

Thanks for the help in advance.

Mike

 

[sberry]

Only difference is if it matters to you.

 

[PCMusicGuy]

I guess I must have been living under a rock to only now find out what the Franzinator really is. I've seen these in pictures before but always thought it was just some kind of desiccant dryer.

 

[Muggzy]

Still here Carey, although I have laughed my glutiusmaximus off laughing at people who are so smart they can't understand American Standard English.

Thermal images don't misrepresent facts.

Heard you settled and made yerself a little berry picker.

Looks awesome. I'd love to see a regular picture side x side. Can you tell us what the airflow conditions were.
I hate it when I use my conditioning wheels and get water spatter.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Franz1.0©]

I don't get too worked up about where fittings come from, fact is most of my columns are made with scrap stock for the ends and halves of pipe couplings welded into the side. Haven't played with one in a few years now, but might revisit version 3.5 when things warm up if I get in the mood to test a new thermal conductive putty I stumbled onto to get heat to fins surrounded by a section of stovepipe with a used computer fan moving air over the fins.

My entertainment with compressed air has waned over time since I wearied of explaining how to soft start compressors and extending machine life while lowering power cost with 30 bucks worth of ebay parts. I no longer give a damn if your belts self destruct and the machine sounds like a swinging sledge hammer every time it cycles, unless you're paying me. I also no longer care about people with Degrees who "KNOW" what can't work, or mental midgets who point out if a device worked somebody would be marketing it (without finding minimally 3 US made units with google).

The unit in the thermal image is mounted to a 10± gallon size oilless machine made by BeJunkSoon manufacturing and sold by a multitude of vendors from Horrible Fright to Northern Screwedyou. The numbers in the pic are Farenheight temps. Pictures were taken while the machine was pumping initial receiver fill cycle, so flow rate is difficult to calculate.

The unit pictured is all welded construction knocked together by a pipe weldor who regularly welds pressure vessels stamped to 5000psi.

Contrary to AGnet brilliance routinely expounded, I will restate, Copper tube does NOT impart short or long wave heat energy to air nearly as well as iron pipe does. If it did, there would be no need of aluminum fins on hydronic baseboard radiation.

There are also advantages to painting the unit flat black, color matters in heat accumulation and emission. Even Licensed Professional engineers can understand that after they make skin contact with a black car parked in the Sun.

Maximum moisture is removed from the air stream when the device is located in the air stream between the compressor and receiver of the system. Employing the device in the air stream after the receiver is an exercise in stupidity since no temperature drop is available, free of charge, after compressed air has lounged in the receiver.

Genuine Franzinator (named by RockyD) design does NOT employ a necked down inlet to the column. The dimensions of a ½" elbow sitting coaxially inside a 2" pipe closely simulate venturi dimensions, but I doubt that has much to do with how the unit functions.

Rule of thumb, largely dependent on geographic location and ambient input air temperature & humidity, 1 column for every 5 compressor horsepower.

I love College Educated Licensed Professional Engineers expounding from within the scope of their discipline, they've put a lot of money in my hands over the years.
Your opinion may vary. That doesn't bother me.
I do have an attitude, it's not a problem for me.
This week is my 49th anniversary of partying in celebration of Tet, up close & personal.
Does anyone think I care what they think about my designs of compressed air equipment unless they are putting money in my hands?

 

[Sharpest]

Anecdotally, I put two franzinators in parallel on my 6.5 hp 80 gallon compressor and they each have a half cup of water or so in them after a heavy day of usage. The tank does still accumulate some water too but I don't doubt the franzinators work. My every day humidity is 70-100% so they may not get all the moisture out but at least they put a dent in it.

 

[Firebrand]

Thank you for actually chiming in and expressing your feelings and design concepts! It's refreshing to hear from the source.

Just one question, does it make a difference how many units are utilized, either in parallel or series, before the receiver?

Besides my usual shop air needs, I also run my 5hp Champion continuously for home snowmaking during the winter. That's the reason I want super cool and dry air, not just for inflating tires or powering tools!

 

[James E]

I am very interested in this idea. Because I'm lazy, can anyone direct me to Mr. Franz' official plans for this device? I would like to try it for my home shop.

And, as a regular contributor to Garage Journal, I feel compelled to ask, can I make this out of PVC?

 

[Franz1.0©]

Thank you for actually chiming in and expressing your feelings and design concepts! It's refreshing to hear from the source.

Just one question, does it make a difference how many units are utilized, either in parallel or series, before the receiver?

Besides my usual shop air needs, I also run my 5hp Champion continuously for home snowmaking during the winter. That's the reason I want super cool and dry air, not just for inflating tires or powering tools!

OK, first, please tell me why you need dry air to make snow. Bud of mine welded 60% of the aluminum pipe for snow making at the Italian Olympics for the equipment manufacturer, and nobody was concerned about dry air. Secondly, in Winter conditions, ambient air has the lowest moisture holding capability.

Back to basics; The column functions by rapidly lowering the temperature of the airstream causing water to drop out of the air stream. Look at the thermal image, hot as hell where the air enters and travels down, cold on top where the air leaves. The top of the column is very near surrounding ambient, so there is little to no heat drop left in the air stream.

Adding a second column in series with the first offers virtually NO BENEFIT.

For higher capacity necessitated by flow or ambient humidity, additional columns are added in parallel.

If you are still getting water in your air stream post receiver, you have LIQUID water, not vapor. The best post receiver device is the polisher. The concept is blatantly swiped from the Natural Gas pipeline industry where a similar water problem exists to compressed air systems. Water WILL fall out of the gas stream IF you give the water a place to fall and time to do the falling. That same design works when setting up air lines. Liquid water in the air line will sit on the bottom of a horizontal, and be carried down a vertical. Just adding a drip leg to the vertical (similar to water heater & furnace drips) doesn't stop water because the air stream is moving too fast. Leaving the horizontal from the top, and then turning the line down vertical with 2 elbows and a ****** leaves 90+% of the water in the horizontal.

Since you said Champion, possibly my favorite machine, and the supplier of most Ritter Dental machines, they have a few minor issues dating back to the REN-10 models.
Chammpion receivers all have a POND in the bottom. The bottom drain valve port sticks up into the receiver. This leads to incomplete draining and plugged drains from the plasticized slop slug in every receiver I ever opened. Solve the problem by installing a drain tube entering the top of the receiver.
Champions also love 30 weight oil. In cold environments unless you add a crankcase heater, this means hard starting.
This can be solved easily by adding about 30 bucks worth of solenoid and timer available from ebay to let the machine come to speed before fighting load.

 

[Franz1.0©]

I am very interested in this idea. Because I'm lazy, can anyone direct me to Mr. Franz' official plans for this device? I would like to try it for my home shop.

And, as a regular contributor to Garage Journal, I feel compelled to ask, can I make this out of PVC?

I'm going to move ahead on the presumption the PVC reference is Board Humor of some sort I'm not conversant with, and not a reference to the fabled BerQUEER build it yourself sandblaster that gleened fools on ePay.

Nothing wrong with Lazy in furtherence of skill, knowledge & labor saving.
Generally beats hell out of OUCH too.

That stated; The no weld model with material list & instructions
http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTalk/index.php?showtopic=1575

The welded model
http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTalk/index.php?showtopic=1460

USE ONLY GENUINE FRANZINATOR© PARTS AND SEND MONEY!
Disclaimer: Franz is old, ornary, cantankerous, cranky and accepts money.

 

[James E]

Thank you for the links.

And yes, the PVC reference is a running joke here. Having a PVC air supply in your garage is a sure way to get yourself flamed.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I've seen black pipe "Franzinators" on pneumatic control systems in OLD buildings many times. Only in OLD buildings. Why? It's old "science". Refrigerated deyhdrators are what are used now. Franzinotors do work, just not as well. All the field built units I've seen do not have any orifice, just a section of pipe that is larger than the rest of the line that has low velocity through it where water can settle out of the stream and be drained off. They work by cooling the air charge through removal of heat, not pressure drop. There is zero pressure drop across the orifice in a Franzinator. We've been through this a bunch of times already...

Tommy

 

[Franz1.0©]

I've seen black pipe "Franzinators" on pneumatic control systems in OLD buildings many times. Only in OLD buildings. Why? It's old "science". Refrigerated deyhdrators are what are used now. Franzinotors do work, just not as well. All the field built units I've seen do not have any orifice, just a section of pipe that is larger than the rest of the line that has low velocity through it where water can settle out of the stream and be drained off. They work by cooling the air charge through removal of heat, not pressure drop. There is zero pressure drop across the orifice in a Franzinator. We've been through this a bunch of times already...

Tommy

PLEASE NOTE, There is NO Orfice in my design, never has been. All references to orfices are by people who attempted to build the device their way.

Actually, my design primarily operates by thermal drop, and secondarily relies on then turning the cooled air stream 180° to exit the column.

As in real estate, LOCATION is everything. The maximum temperature drop in the air stream is available between discharge from the compressor and entrance to the receiver.

Yes, it's OLD "science", I'm an old man, and the system has been in use for Decades. Gee, maybe I should update the concept, market plans and kits on ebay, and use words like NEW, IMPROVED, Environmentally friendly, Energy saving, contains NO CFCs, and have a broad with a massive pair caressing the column in the marketing picture.

 

[ssdave]

PLEASE NOTE, There is NO Orfice in my design, never has been. All references to orfices are by people who attempted to build the device their way.

Actually, my design primarily operates by thermal drop, and secondarily relies on then turning the cooled air stream 180° to exit the column.

As in real estate, LOCATION is everything. The maximum temperature drop in the air stream is available between discharge from the compressor and entrance to the receiver.

Yes, it's OLD "science", I'm an old man, and the system has been in use for Decades. Gee, maybe I should update the concept, market plans and kits on ebay, and use words like NEW, IMPROVED, Environmentally friendly, Energy saving, contains NO CFCs, and have a broad with a massive pair caressing the column in the marketing picture.

Franz,

Good post, and I appreciate that it's spot on.

A lot of the scepticism about your device comes from the junk science that people have posted about it, and how amazing it is, and how it works better than anything commercial, etc, etc, etc. What you said about it is what I always say, and get beat up on by the apostles and groupies for saying: It works because it is a heat sink that cools the air, and the change of direction helps remove suspended drops from the airstream. And, cooling the air when it's the hottest is the best place to do it.

If people would understand what you said and apply it to this, there would be a lot less controversy about using them. They work, for the reasons stated. Like Tommy said, there's better alternatives if you need more removal, but if they work for what you need and you have the scrap pipe lying around, go for it.

I wouldn't discount doing something more effective if that will work better for you. With the price of pipe and fittings new, I'd certainly consider an oil cooler and separator setup a reasonable option. It takes up less space, is as easy to construct, and parts cost about the same.

 

[Franz1.0©]

Dave, to paraphrase; What is said about me and the "Franzinator" in the here and now is of little import. If in the end I am proven wrong, 10,000 Angels in Heaven singing my praise will make no difference.

A few years back I had some time to kill and a bit of curiosity so I googled and was taken a bit aback by the massive number of references to the device. Curioscity drove me to look at some, and basic math sans decimal points led me quickly to confirming there are 2 groups arguing about the "Franzinator".

Those who never built the device + those who insist on misinstalling the device are absolutely sure IT CAN'T WORK, and will preach that line until Detroit is once again a prosperous vibrant metropolis. Many of that group are Professional Engineers who back their thinking with the absolute; If it worked it would be commercially available, because after all we're too damn stupid to screw pipes together.
The second group is made up of people who built the device, installed it in the correct position in the air stream, and extol the virtues of this simple device.

I can extrapolate much from the groups, but since I gave the design away 20 years ago, why should I bother?

I've played with the device through 7 generations of development, including both Freon and water chilled, along with finned and fan cooled finned, and an internal baffle that provided no gain. I got lucky enough that a bud shot thermal images that proved my original thinking, and I'm damned if I'll spend the money to build one with a window to see if my thinking on surface tension and cohesion provide a function to liquid sliding down the inside wall.

It works, it costs maybe 30 bucks to build, and it costs nothing to run, unlike refrigerated dryers. For those who can listen and learn, it also provides cooling by evaporation to your shop, but ONLY if you can think outside of the damnable box.

If your intake air comes from a swamp, the "Franzinator" may not be the complete solution to your post receiver air moisture situation. Simple low cost solutions to that exist too, beginning with sodastraw condensate removal from the receiver that cofunctions with the soft start system on the compressor, and proper air line design. Still got a problem at the spray gun? Add a polisher to the line after the gun regulator and pick up the benefit of a buffered gun air supply as well. NONE of this solution requires 1 additional watt of electricity.

To save the question, yes, I have run a refrigerated dryer both pre and post polisher, and found no moisture to be extracted after the polisher.

I like not having to spend a dollar because I know I must earn damn near 2 to spend 1 thanks to the tax man. I continue my offer to refund 110% of all money sent me for "Franzinator" plans by any unhappy customer!

 

[shortykorte]

Thank you for sharing you design. This reminds me of numerous threads I've encountered. For example

OP: I need to occasional haul some bags of gravel or stepping stones. Will my hatchback be ok.
Reply 1: oh no you need something with a bed.
OP: so something like a Subaru or El Camino.
Reply 2: oh no, has to be full frame pick up
Reply 3: and a long bed V-8
Reply 4: and four wheel drive so when you're at the boat ramp.
OP: uh? I don't have a boat.
Reply 5: got to have a diesel because you might need to carry a ton of rock, up a mountain, towing a boat.
Reply: for the boat make sure it's 4 cycle outboard.
Reply 3: plus a crew cab to carry the people helping you.
OP: **** my mom only wants one 20 lb bag of rocks and I've could have been back from the store all ready.

 

[Trey T]

Can someone build it so I can buy one? I bought the parts two yrs ago and it's still sitting in my attic

 

[Franz1.0©]

I am not absolutely certain, but for the most part I attribute blame for such lines of thought to the writing of David Herbert Richards Lawrence, when in one of his few known lucid moments when he penned What is he in the 19th Century.

 

[Franz1.0©]

Can someone build it so I can buy one? I bought the parts two yrs ago and it's still sitting in my attic

Can you swing by with the parts around 4 in the afternoon Saturday coming and I'll give you a hand with assembly.