Fujitsu mini-split quote too high?

[zmaxmotorsports]

I will disagree with the degree of difficulty between a standard split system box swap (evap and condenser, in an unconfined/uncramped space; no changes otherwise to the air handler/furnace, ductwork and electrical) versus a fresh new mini split install.

This part here is of importance: "I don't have to count my minutes...", and quoted as such, it doesn't lose context.

A so-called professional, under the gun to get the job completed, will cut corners more often than not. Whether the boss blew the bid/scope of work and it is a legitimate issue or even down to the employee on a performance based pay system that cuts corners to get it done faster. Yes, some companies promise a complete and proper job and lie about what they are providing from the start and never deliver the proper job- even if they can.

Just as bad are the property owners that tell you to go stuff it when major unforeseen difficulties arise and a reasonable price adjustment is sought. Major corners will get cut then.

It would be rare to have an issue arise that adds time/cost to a project and to have the contractor performing the work to slug through it and eat it 100% without compromise somewhere. I'm not talking about the little oopsies here.

Maybe you should be talking to a differant contractor.

 

[danski0224]

That's stuff I've seen, after someone else did the work.

 

[Spdstr280Z]

I will disagree with the degree of difficulty between a standard split system box swap (evap and condenser, in an unconfined/uncramped space; no changes otherwise to the air handler/furnace, ductwork and electrical) versus a fresh new mini split install.

This part here is of importance: "I don't have to count my minutes...", and quoted as such, it doesn't lose context.

Now that I have a few minutes and a bigger screen, I want to clarify something. In this thread, I am in the context of my original reply...

"I had the same experience, they price these things like traditional units. I guess the ducting / vents / air handler / remote thermostat are free with traditional split systems... My quotes were about the same for an 18K Trane, and an 18K Daiken. The "Trane" is actually a rebadged Gree that I can buy on the web for around ~$1,200."

I'm not comparing a swap out, which I realize is confusing since the OP did mention his house swap out and I jumped in with comparing new for new. I am saying that I personally have received quotes for new mini split installs that are in the same price range as new traditional split system installs. Given that the mini split involves mounting an indoor unit, mounting an outdoor unit, plumbing between the two, power to the outdoor unit, control wire between the two, leak test, purge and test, and that the traditional system requires the same, plus ducting, at least one return, vents, a thermostat, wiring that thermostat, and another circuit run, I don't feel for the same size they should be priced in the same ball park. Unfortunately they are for me here, and others on this forum and others have run in to the same. One of my potential vendors even mentioned specifically that if the price was a problem he might be able to do a traditional for less. Now, I have been assuming that the installers are the ones making the mark up. As someone mentioned above, maybe it is the supply houses charging a higher mark up on the minis. Maybe it is a little bit of both I don't know, but I just find it hard to accept.

Other than that, I don't disagree with anything else you have said. Yes, people tend to expect service for free, and forget that a business has a ton of overhead, plus they provide a warranty. I'm fine with an honest business making a buck, I fully support it, there just seem to be too many bucks being made on these things. If I had a quote under 3 grand they probably would have been installing the next week. They started around $4,500 and depended on (possible) tax credits and rebates to get their best possible down to $3,600. I can do it for $1,400 or so plus my time thanks to the DIY kits. Yes, it is a Chinese manufactured unit with a weird name, but so was the Gree with a Trane label on it they wanted the premium price for.

Not sure why this even bothers me enough to type all this, but I have been doing a ton of research in the last few months and obviously feel pretty strongly about it.

Thanks for listening !

Jason

 

[danski0224]

I'm not comparing a swap out, which I realize is confusing since the OP did mention his house swap out and I jumped in with comparing new for new. I am saying that I personally have received quotes for new mini split installs that are in the same price range as new traditional split system installs. Given that the mini split involves mounting an indoor unit, mounting an outdoor unit, plumbing between the two, power to the outdoor unit, control wire between the two, leak test, purge and test, and that the traditional system requires the same, plus ducting, at least one return, vents, a thermostat, wiring that thermostat, and another circuit run, I don't feel for the same size they should be priced in the same ball park. Unfortunately they are for me here, and others on this forum and others have run in to the same. One of my potential vendors even mentioned specifically that if the price was a problem he might be able to do a traditional for less. Now, I have been assuming that the installers are the ones making the mark up. As someone mentioned above, maybe it is the supply houses charging a higher mark up on the minis. Maybe it is a little bit of both I don't know, but I just find it hard to accept.

And where are these cheaply and easily installed mini split components located?

I had one person approach me about installing several mini splits instead of a traditional high velocity retrofit system.

Virtually no exterior walls to install the mini split evaporator/fan units because of windows or interior layout. Installation on the interior walls means lots more work to chase the required bits and pieces, not to mention what to do with the condensate.

Those multi-unit condensers aren't exactly cheap, either. The name brand ones, not the knockoffs.

Needless to say, the price was high. It wasn't significantly less expensive than a high velocity system and there wasn't much less work to get to the finished product. It may have been less to install 2 regular split systems, one in the attic and one in the basement, but I wasn't wasting time on figuring it out by this point... and this was before the 2012 IECC.

I have seen some fairly large commercial historical old building into hotel retrofit projects with multi-zone mini split condensers connected to ceiling cassettes and wall-mount evaporators. That kind of work in a residential setting would be equally destructive... or one surface-mounts the linesets and wiring and drain.

Lots of people on this forum in particular bellyache about HVAC costs in their $200k garage, provide zero details or specs on the job, and want opinions on whether or not the price is good. It can make for entertaining reading.

Supply houses sell lots of stuff with a price that isn't competitive. I can buy PVC pipe and pay lots more for it at the supplier, but it is more convenient than making a separate trip to the box store. If I was paying an employee, it is probably cheaper to have it all picked up from one spot than 2 trips when the hourly rate is factored in.

The internet vendors selling no-name cheap mini splits probably contracted a couple of container loads of them from a Chinese manufacturer... with warranty and support to match.

The name brand products sold through reputable vendors with warranty support are more expensive. Some places sell the name brands, but there is no warranty support.

Oddly enough, paying customers want some sort of warranty. The customers that sourced their own stuff to "save money" hate hearing that their warranty support comes from the vendor.

Last time I checked with my supplier, their mini-split pricing was comparable to everything but the cheapo no name stuff.

I don't like mini-splits because I can't fix them and from what I have heard, not too many others can fix them either without long calls to tech support and parts swapping (if you can get the parts). There is a $hit ton of technology in them to make them work.

 

[truckman5000]

The quote is alright. you have 300$ misc materials 600$ electrical ( 400-600 depending). And 1200 for labor + taxes

 

[Spdstr280Z]

Danski0224, I had another long reply all typed up, once again telling you that you are right about a lot of things, that since you are in the industry you should know more about it than I do, but also sharing my not so positive experiences in HVAC. I talked about these things being commodities and cooling a lot of Asia and Europe affordably, with exceptions for a couple or three top tier name brands. Unfortunately a little disagreement with a tablet lost all that... Anyway, I don't think it would do much other than clutter up the thread even more with our back and forth. At this point I don't know if we are having a friendly conversation or are in an internet ******* contest. My logic and question relevant to the OP and the thread was a few posts back, but I'll copy it here. Maybe you or someone else in the industry can educate me or correct my logic. That will help me, the OP, and others who read this thread with the same questions to understand...

Given that the mini split involves mounting an indoor unit, mounting an outdoor unit, plumbing between the two, power to the outdoor unit, control wire between the two, leak test, purge and test, and that the traditional system requires the same, plus ducting, at least one return, vents, a thermostat, wiring that thermostat, and another circuit run, I don't feel for the same size they should be priced in the same ball park.

What am I missing ?

Thanks,

Jason

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Here is the 24,000 BTU Fujitsu unit for $2036.95. This includes free shipping and no tax if you don't live in Florida.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Fujitsu-Air-Conditioners/24RLB-24RLB-24000-BTU-18-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-System/52513.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68436:18,001%20-%2024,000:1004:Fujitsu

That company is NOT an "Factory Authorized e-tailer". Neither is anyone else on the internet. There is no such thing.

Simple story- DO NOT buy a Fujitsu online. There is NO warranty if you do.

Lookie:

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/HVACInternetWarrantyPolicy.pdf

Tommy

 

[Jackfre]

Danski, the problem with the Hi-Velocity systems is that are low efficiency. Both Unico and Spacepak took the "space constrained" bypass when it came time to go to a minimum 13 seer. They took what looked like and is an easy out and voted for low efficiency. Hi V is ok when it is really well installed, but can whistle like crazy if things are not just right. There was a lot of it sold up to about the '05 timeframe as the inverter mini-splits had not gotten into the market. Since then, MSHP's have had exponential growth while HiV does with much much reduced market share. Does it work? Yes. Is it efficient when compared to the competition, no. It is an option and I guess we need choices.

 

[mpire]

I see people complaining about how much it costs to install a system and I see people saying that these guys need to make a living. I am sorry, but you don't need to charge $2000 to install a system. That's just insane pricing. $75 an hour x 4 is $300.

That being said, I honestly would pay to not have to deal with it, but now the upcharges are getting to the point where I can't even stomach it.

I was told on my last service call for a pinhole leak that there was a $500 minimum charge to vacuum down the system before it could be recharged. This is a company that I have had a good relationship with for 10+ years.

Seriously, this is a racket. They are just ripping people off at this point. No one needs to charge $500 for 20 minutes use of a vacuum pump.

Then I was told they were not allowed to repair the pinhole leak on a mini-split. Another WTF moment. I paid this guy to install it, and now he can't fix a pinhole leak. I still had to pay for the service call where he told me he wasn't going to even try to fix it.

So now I have a tank of refrigerant, extra copper, the proper brazing rods, a new set of gauges, an electronic refrigerant sniffer, a vacuum pump, and a basic understanding of how to use it all.

I may not be as good as these guys, but it has reached the point where I can literally replace everything that could possibly be broken for less money than I can call them out to diagnose and fix it.

I will no longer be calling the AC guys when my AC stops working, I can't afford them anymore.

 

[mpire]

That company is NOT an "Factory Authorized e-tailer". Neither is anyone else on the internet. There is no such thing.

Simple story- DO NOT buy a Fujitsu online. There is NO warranty if you do.

Tommy

That may be the case with the Fujitsu, however the TWO LG units I have bought from them both have full factory warranties. I know for a fact because I have made two claims. One for each of them. The mini-split in my master had a bad thermister so the heat wasn't working correctly. Warranty replacement. The one in the garage had a cosmetic de-lamination on the front panel, they also sent me a replacement.

I guess you should just get an LG. I am pretty happy, even with a pinhole leak after 5 years of constant use.

 

[danski0224]

Given that the mini split involves mounting an indoor unit, mounting an outdoor unit, plumbing between the two, power to the outdoor unit, control wire between the two, leak test, purge and test, and that the traditional system requires the same, plus ducting, at least one return, vents, a thermostat, wiring that thermostat, and another circuit run, I don't feel for the same size they should be priced in the same ball park.

I guess the best answer is "it depends".

I have yet to have a mini-split vs traditional split choice where either will work with the same scope of work. Nor have I had a mini-split install that didn't involve a ton of work getting the lineset and up/down power through.

What is your definition of "ductwork"? All store-bought metal with poor airflow supply and return plenums? Is someone making custom pieces? A 24" tall plenum on the supply and return with a bunch of flex taps (1 run per box of flex, golden rule )? Maybe no return plenum and we'll just tap the flex right to the furnace cabinet (yes, I've seen it).

Without knowing the scope of work, a blanket statement either way doesn't work. However, I am fairly confident that the wholesale cost on "builder grade" low end HVAC boxes from any manufacturer can be had for less than a mini split.

I see people complaining about how much it costs to install a system and I see people saying that these guys need to make a living. I am sorry, but you don't need to charge $2000 to install a system. That's just insane pricing. $75 an hour x 4 is $300.

That being said, I honestly would pay to not have to deal with it, but now the upcharges are getting to the point where I can't even stomach it.

I was told on my last service call for a pinhole leak that there was a $500 minimum charge to vacuum down the system before it could be recharged. This is a company that I have had a good relationship with for 10+ years.

Seriously, this is a racket. They are just ripping people off at this point. No one needs to charge $500 for 20 minutes use of a vacuum pump.

Then I was told they were not allowed to repair the pinhole leak on a mini-split. Another WTF moment. I paid this guy to install it, and now he can't fix a pinhole leak. I still had to pay for the service call where he told me he wasn't going to even try to fix it.

So now I have a tank of refrigerant, extra copper, the proper brazing rods, a new set of gauges, an electronic refrigerant sniffer, a vacuum pump, and a basic understanding of how to use it all.

I may not be as good as these guys, but it has reached the point where I can literally replace everything that could possibly be broken for less money than I can call them out to diagnose and fix it.

I will no longer be calling the AC guys when my AC stops working, I can't afford them anymore.

And where is $75 an hour too much or too little?

The car dealer charges $130 an hour and pays the tech $27. Why should I pay 4 hours of book time on a job that the tech did in 30 minutes? That's a ripoff, scam and a racket.

Why are lawyers $250+ an hour?

Why did that 15 minute ER visit cost $1,200.00? And the aspirin $125?

Don't give me the education BS because the HVAC guys have to keep up on equipment too.

Why does no one complain when the appliance repair guy charges $150 to show, doesn't have the part so it needs to be ordered, and then charges more to come back?

Twenty minutes on the vacuum pump? What, no micron gauge? How do you know 20 minutes is long enough, or does 30 cost extra?

As far as the pinhole leak goes, if it is in the coil, I wouldn't fix it either. That copper tube is paper thin and I wouldn't waste the time trying. Then what happens when another leak pops up and the customer tries to pin it on the tech next time (my car didn't do this last time routine)? Mini-splits are disposable commodities. An electrical problem might be worthwhile, if it can be diagnosed quickly.

 

[Fixin'Stuff]

And where is $75 an hour too much or too little?

I believe that the point he was making is that $300 would be a fair price for 4 hours of work. $2,000 is unreasonable.

 

[danski0224]

I believe that the point he was making is that $300 would be a fair price for 4 hours of work. $2,000 is unreasonable.

And I'd say, unreasonable says who? Probably no problem finding a lawyer that bills out at $500 an hour...

It would be interesting to know what mpire does and what he (assumed) charges or gets paid per hour. Maybe that rate is unreasonable, just because I say so.

 

[cowanrg]

wow, this thread has devolved quite a bit

I'm still leaning towards DIY, but waiting on a quote back from another guy who I'll probably end up using for the main system.

 

[mpire]

And where is $75 an hour too much or too little?

That is what I was paying, and that is what I would be paying for future service. I didn't say it was too much or too little.

The car dealer charges $130 an hour and pays the tech $27. Why should I pay 4 hours of book time on a job that the tech did in 30 minutes? That's a ripoff, scam and a racket.

They work from book time, I don't use them either. Independent mechanics do a better job, but honestly I can usually fix it myself faster than I can drive to the mechanic anyway.

Why are lawyers $250+ an hour?

Because they are members of the bar and you can not legally do what they do until you pass the bar. Not so much skills, but its a cartel kinda thing.

Don't give me the education BS because the HVAC guys have to keep up on equipment too.

I figured it out at the local library in about 4 hours. I don't need to pay for any more education than that. What I am paying for is experience.

Why does no one complain when the appliance repair guy charges $150 to show, doesn't have the part so it needs to be ordered, and then charges more to come back?

I do. However, its a convenience thing, and if you quote me $200 for a $11 part then I am not paying you at all for even the first visit because they are crooks and dishonest. Its happened before, it pays to be an informed customer.

Twenty minutes on the vacuum pump? What, no micron gauge? How do you know 20 minutes is long enough, or does 30 cost extra?

Guess what, that's how long it took him to do it before. $500 flat rate to vacuum down a system. How much do you think is fair? He installed it originally, so I trust he knew the proper amount of time.

As far as the pinhole leak goes, if it is in the coil, I wouldn't fix it either. That copper tube is paper thin and I wouldn't waste the time trying. Then what happens when another leak pops up and the customer tries to pin it on the tech next time (my car didn't do this last time routine)? Mini-splits are disposable commodities. An electrical problem might be worthwhile, if it can be diagnosed quickly.

Bla bla bla ********. Throw it away? What is wrong with you? Fix the leak like you are supposed to or don't charge for the service call if you aren't going to do the work. Throw it away means I am not going to buy a replacement from you. Its a pinhole leak, I fixed it myself in 5 minutes and then recharged it myself. I am not throwing away a $1200 air conditioner for 5 minutes of work. Plus, I had a brand new coil standing by but he didn't want to install that either.

Whenever I have anyone tell me that its a throw away, but can't tell me why, then I think they are stupid or lazy and wasting my time and they are immediately asked to leave. I also don't pay them. I am paying you to tell me WHY its not working, not that it isn't worth fixing. I have had this same situation with auto mechanics, appliance repair services, and AC guys. You get paid to know what the problem is, its called experience. If you don't know then you are useless. I can blindly throw parts at stuff just as easy as you can.

$75 an hour until the job is done is fair. Going up on the hourly rate a 10-15% isn't something that I would complain about. Not wanting to do the work at all because you don't think you will make enough money makes you lazy, or a crook, or worse. It also loses good paying customers and word of mouth travels fast.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I guess the best answer is "it depends".

I have yet to have a mini-split vs traditional split choice where either will work with the same scope of work. Nor have I had a mini-split install that didn't involve a ton of work getting the lineset and up/down power through.

What is your definition of "ductwork"? All store-bought metal with poor airflow supply and return plenums? Is someone making custom pieces? A 24" tall plenum on the supply and return with a bunch of flex taps (1 run per box of flex, golden rule )? Maybe no return plenum and we'll just tap the flex right to the furnace cabinet (yes, I've seen it).

Without knowing the scope of work, a blanket statement either way doesn't work. However, I am fairly confident that the wholesale cost on "builder grade" low end HVAC boxes from any manufacturer can be had for less than a mini split.





And where is $75 an hour too much or too little?

The car dealer charges $130 an hour and pays the tech $27. Why should I pay 4 hours of book time on a job that the tech did in 30 minutes? That's a ripoff, scam and a racket.

Why are lawyers $250+ an hour?

Why did that 15 minute ER visit cost $1,200.00? And the aspirin $125?

Don't give me the education BS because the HVAC guys have to keep up on equipment too.

Why does no one complain when the appliance repair guy charges $150 to show, doesn't have the part so it needs to be ordered, and then charges more to come back?

Twenty minutes on the vacuum pump? What, no micron gauge? How do you know 20 minutes is long enough, or does 30 cost extra?

As far as the pinhole leak goes, if it is in the coil, I wouldn't fix it either. That copper tube is paper thin and I wouldn't waste the time trying. Then what happens when another leak pops up and the customer tries to pin it on the tech next time (my car didn't do this last time routine)? Mini-splits are disposable commodities. An electrical problem might be worthwhile, if it can be diagnosed quickly.

 

[brewchief]

Charging 75$ an hour we would be out of business very quickly, our break even point is a bit above 100$ per hour.

For the guys that think a proper mini-split install can be done in 4 hours I ask how many have you installed personally in that amount of time? That's show up at the customers house and in 4 hours do the complete install, clean up and do paperwork and collect for the job in 4 hours.

Everyone thinks we are ripping them off but at the end of the year we are very happy to turn a 2-3% profit after all the overhead.

If you think we are getting rich in this business then by all means start your own company and try to do it cheaper.

 

[mpire]

I don't set the hourly rate, but if that's your hourly rate then that's what you charge.

Doesn't matter how long the install takes, it takes what it takes at the hourly rate.

Its the 2000% markup on parts and the constantly trying to sell us new systems and refusing to fix the old ones that pisses me off.

I have some condos I rent out. The AC units in those things were installed in 1974. They were made by GE. I have yet to have a tech come out to fix anything who didn't just tell me to replace the whole system. Well, guess what, I don't want to put in a new system when this one works just fine but has a rattle and needs the squirrel blower motor screws tightened.

Don't tell me I need a new system, I am paying for you to tell me what is wrong with the system I have.

In the end I fixed it myself after three different contractors. I just needed a good pressure washing on the fan blades, a couple new screws, and some jb-weld on a crack in the squirrel fan housing. 6+ years later its still not vibrating.

However, I would have happily paid them $100 an hour to do what I did so I didn't have to do it. For $400 I would bite, but at $4000-$10,000 for a new system you are just too stupid, too lazy, or too crooked to deal with.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Charging 75$ an hour we would be out of business very quickly, our break even point is a bit above 100$ per hour.

For the guys that think a proper mini-split install can be done in 4 hours I ask how many have you installed personally in that amount of time? That's show up at the customers house and in 4 hours do the complete install, clean up and do paperwork and collect for the job in 4 hours.

Everyone thinks we are ripping them off but at the end of the year we are very happy to turn a 2-3% profit after all the overhead.

If you think we are getting rich in this business then by all means start your own company and try to do it cheaper.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I don't set the hourly rate, but if that's your hourly rate then that's what you charge.

Doesn't matter how long the install takes, it takes what it takes at the hourly rate.

Its the 2000% markup on parts and the constantly trying to sell us new systems and refusing to fix the old ones that pisses me off.

I have some condos I rent out. The AC units in those things were installed in 1974. They were made by GE. I have yet to have a tech come out to fix anything who didn't just tell me to replace the whole system. Well, guess what, I don't want to put in a new system when this one works just fine but has a rattle and needs the squirrel blower motor screws tightened.

Don't tell me I need a new system, I am paying for you to tell me what is wrong with the system I have.

In the end I fixed it myself after three different contractors. I just needed a good pressure washing on the fan blades, a couple new screws, and some jb-weld on a crack in the squirrel fan housing. 6+ years later its still not vibrating.

However, I would have happily paid them $100 an hour to do what I did so I didn't have to do it. For $400 I would bite, but at $4000-$10,000 for a new system you are just too stupid, too lazy, or too crooked to deal with.

I prefer to work on existing equipt versus doing installs,Theres a lot more money in the service end of the business than doing installs.
Those old ge furnaces and condensing units were actually rebadged trane wrecks from what I remember of the furnaces anyway.
If you still have the old matching furnace I STRONGLY reccomend checking the heat exchanger for cracks,Look just above the 1st bends in the heat exchanger.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

That may be the case with the Fujitsu, however the TWO LG units I have bought from them both have full factory warranties. I know for a fact because I have made two claims. One for each of them. The mini-split in my master had a bad thermister so the heat wasn't working correctly. Warranty replacement. The one in the garage had a cosmetic de-lamination on the front panel, they also sent me a replacement.

I guess you should just get an LG. I am pretty happy, even with a pinhole leak after 5 years of constant use.

LGs are good machines. I'm suprised you had a leak in any part of their machine at all.

Tommy

 

[mpire]

LGs are good machines. I'm suprised you had a leak in any part of their machine at all.

Tommy

Yeah, we covered it in another thread. After I tracked down the leak it looked like it was dented/knicked when they were making the bends on the end of the evaporator. You could see the scrape, and the copper is really thin apparently. It popped a nice big leak that you could hear the refrigerant escaping for over a week. The support guy tried really hard to get me the replacement coil under warranty or to good will it. But they wouldn't let him. In the end it was only $114 so I just bought one. I ended up patching it myself and after a recharge its working great again.

 

[Jackfre]

I have yet to have a tech come out to fix anything who didn't just tell me to replace the whole system. Well, guess what, I don't want to put in a new system when this one works just fine but has a rattle and needs the squirrel blower motor screws tightened.

I think you will see more of this than less as we go forward. I talk with a lot of contractors who are shorthanded. Skilled craft is not abundant. This lack of personnel shows most in the skilled troubleshooter side of the business. As pointed out, there is more money in the service side of the business...for the guy who knows how to do it! There are fewer and fewer every day.

 

[mpire]

It makes me sad to be honest. I think its important to have someone you trust to do the work, and I don't mind paying them to come out and clean/service the unit even when nothing is wrong. Lets be honest here, they are just checking the refrigerant, making sure the drain lines are clear, hosing down the coils, and then checking the drain line. Its just easy money. Its not hard work at all and I could probably do it myself. However, these new flat rate charges are outrageous and I will never be paying them. I have been a loyal customer for 10+ years and its just plain insulting.

 

[Pig In A Poke]

From my own experiences with other appliances, the manufacturer does not want to sell/stock/manufacture parts. They purchase all those things typically from other vendors and only have interest in the complete unit. From speaking with people at a large american appliance manufacturer they feel more confident with the installer only being an installer and not making repairs. We even had a similar incident with a vehicle where after two attempts to make a repair the manufacturer just took the car back and wrote us a check.

There are nearly just as many skilled craftsman as there was 20 years ago, however no one wants to pay them, most people just view them as menial labor. I am a second generation mason with 17 years of experience, and often people go with the lowest bidder complaining about the expense and then complain at the poor work they received from the lowest bidder. Craftsmen live in the same places as the rest of the world, pay the same amount for milk, gas, taxes, and everything else. For every ten bids I provide I actually get one job, and somehow that time and expense has to get paid for. We all want the things that the "better offs" have, without paying the price. A hundred years ago skilled workers were still expensive and only affordable to the few, but their work survives and most people think that all work back then was good, but honestly it usually only the good work that was capable of or maintained well enough to survive.

Sorry for the rant I often do most everything around my home as well because I cannot justify the expense of hiring it out. However, I understand the reasoning behind a lot of the expense and at times it is gouging by a "smash and grab" operation, but at others it is guy just like myself trying to do a good job and provide better things for mine.

 

[mpire]

It really is pretty sad these days that no one does a good job anymore. I have used the same AC tech for a decade and I trust him, and I would only let that one tech service my equipment. His company has started gouging for no reason and that's not his fault, he excelled at being able to explain situations to me.

I got a guy who mounts my tires for me. I buy my tires from him exclusively for 15 years now, and generally he beats anyone's pricing including tire rack online. Now that he is the store manager he still personally mounts my tires for me. I tip him $20-25 a wheel because he is the only guy who doesn't beat up and scratch my wheels. (Its $600 for a wheel respray.) Why is it impossible to find someone who can mount a tire and not damage the wheel in the process? I am a decent customer, 5 sets of tires this year so far. It just takes someone who cares enough to do it right. I doubt it takes more than a few minutes extra. He does everyone's tires I know now, because he does a good job. Sure, he could overcharge random people if he wanted to, but just doing a good quality job means he gets a lot more business that he absolutely wouldn't get otherwise.

I feel like most of the guys doing service are just looking to do the job as fast as they can, for the most money they can. I am tired of being ripped off by lazy people who do poor work.

I had a guy pressure wash my driveway for me. $75. It was good work, took him about half an hour, I was happy. So the next time I called him he wanted $200+ for the same job. Of course I don't want to pay that kind of markup a year later. I am sorry you have more expenses now, but I didn't pick the price the first time. I ended up buying a pressure washing disk for $60 and doing it myself in about an hour. I would rather just make a call and be done with it. However, now I have the tools and know its easy to do so I won't be calling him ever again.

Same goes for some hedge trimming, first time around they want $100, so that's fine. Next time they tell me its $300 for the same job 6 months later.

So now I don't hire anyone without a personal recommendation from a friend.

 

[BADSIX]

I just had 2 Fujitsu units installed in a 4 bedroom to bath 2 story house. i'll have to check with the wife tonight as to exact cost. I do know we did get quite a lot back from some gov. rebates and tax credits.
Jay D.

 

[Big Daddy Chop Shop]

I see people complaining about how much it costs to install a system and I see people saying that these guys need to make a living. I am sorry, but you don't need to charge $2000 to install a system. That's just insane pricing. $75 an hour x 4 is $300.

That being said, I honestly would pay to not have to deal with it, but now the upcharges are getting to the point where I can't even stomach it.

I was told on my last service call for a pinhole leak that there was a $500 minimum charge to vacuum down the system before it could be recharged. This is a company that I have had a good relationship with for 10+ years.

Seriously, this is a racket. They are just ripping people off at this point. No one needs to charge $500 for 20 minutes use of a vacuum pump.

Then I was told they were not allowed to repair the pinhole leak on a mini-split. Another WTF moment. I paid this guy to install it, and now he can't fix a pinhole leak. I still had to pay for the service call where he told me he wasn't going to even try to fix it.

So now I have a tank of refrigerant, extra copper, the proper brazing rods, a new set of gauges, an electronic refrigerant sniffer, a vacuum pump, and a basic understanding of how to use it all.

I may not be as good as these guys, but it has reached the point where I can literally replace everything that could possibly be broken for less money than I can call them out to diagnose and fix it.

I will no longer be calling the AC guys when my AC stops working, I can't afford them anymore.

I love this.... Here is the deal- Yes you will. Period. You will call a service man again, and to be honest, I hope you get a good one. But you will. You will have a problem you can't figure out, or create one from your "basic knowledge" and you will be forced to call.

I love customers who can "get it cheaper" or do it all themselves. Those of us who are real technicians , who live and breathe this daily, did not go to the Penn-Foster HVAC mail order school. Nor do we come cheap. Now, there are companies that may not operate on the up and up, but they are like crooked cops, you don't hear about the good ones.

I have been out of the field and in the office for a few years, but I STILL live and breathe it EVERY SINGLE DAY. It is BEYOND insulting to hear that you think you are "the man" because you have seen a couple things on a couple systems. Its a Joke, and a bad one.

I would go from a 1500 ton low pressure centrifugal chiller to a 5 ton RTU to a 400 ton screw chiller to a 1 ton cabinet cooler......And I will be the first to say- I am not the best nor do I know it all.

 

[Big Daddy Chop Shop]

For the OP- To set a brand new unit, to do all the electric, set a pad, ETC, ETC, that is a fair price. Keep in mind that the contractor holds the warranty and has some skin in the game.

 

[brewchief]

It really is pretty sad these days that no one does a good job anymore. I have used the same AC tech for a decade and I trust him, and I would only let that one tech service my equipment. His company has started gouging for no reason and that's not his fault, he excelled at being able to explain situations to me.

I doubt they simply started "gouging" for no reason, I would bet a case of domestic bottled beer that they switched from a time and materials to a flat rate billing system. We use a flat rate system from Callahan Roach, they take average parts price plus average labor times and build a price book, the tech looks up the repair in the book and gives the customer the price before they do the work. No different then taking your car to the shop for brakes and getting a price before hand, if the job takes less or more time you still pay the same. Some prices may seem high but they have to account for warranty calls as well as other overhead.

Many companies under price work done on a time and materials basis and are slowly putting themselves in the red, they're not doing it on purpose it's just hard to collect for every minute spent on the job and not easy to keep track of the parts cost when it's been in stock in a service van for a long time.

If you were happy with the company you were using give them a call and explain your concerns about the pricing changes, if you can schedule work during the slower seasons then you can sometimes negotiate price a bit.

 

[Spdstr280Z]

So... I'm really not out to beat up HVAC companies, really, but I'm curious how warranty works in HVAC then. The last two posts have mentioned the installer holding the warranty, or building some in to the price to cover warranty. In the industries I have been in during my career, manufacturers provide the warranty, and pay the dealer to do warranty jobs. They pay a warranty rate, that may not be the book rate that makes the dealer happy, but they pay labor and parts to the dealer. I know that when my HVAC work in the past was checked for warranty, I was told they were checking with the manufacturer, so I assumed it worked the same way.

Jason

 

[brewchief]

So... I'm really not out to beat up HVAC companies, really, but I'm curious how warranty works in HVAC then. The last two posts have mentioned the installer holding the warranty, or building some in to the price to cover warranty. In the industries I have been in during my career, manufacturers provide the warranty, and pay the dealer to do warranty jobs. They pay a warranty rate, that may not be the book rate that makes the dealer happy, but they pay labor and parts to the dealer. I know that when my HVAC work in the past was checked for warranty, I was told they were checking with the manufacturer, so I assumed it worked the same way.

Jason

Most of the time the manufacturer will replace the failed part, in certain cases they might cover part of the labor but beyond the first year that's fairly uncommon. Most warrantys will exclude all freight charges and refrigerant so those cost will go to the dealer.
Often the dealer will have to buy the parts and then wait to be credited for the cost, this can be quick or it can drag on, we have waited over 9 months to get credited for a heat exchanger that our cost was over 2k, do 8 or 10 of those and it adds up, the supplier still wants to be paid in 30 days or less so you can have a lot of cash out that simply turns to credit on your account at that supplier, ***** when that is your least favorite supplier.

 

[Big Daddy Chop Shop]

Most of the time the manufacturer will replace the failed part, in certain cases they might cover part of the labor but beyond the first year that's fairly uncommon. Most warrantys will exclude all freight charges and refrigerant so those cost will go to the dealer.
Often the dealer will have to buy the parts and then wait to be credited for the cost, this can be quick or it can drag on, we have waited over 9 months to get credited for a heat exchanger that our cost was over 2k, do 8 or 10 of those and it adds up, the supplier still wants to be paid in 30 days or less so you can have a lot of cash out that simply turns to credit on your account at that supplier, ***** when that is your least favorite supplier.

This is PART of the story. The rest goes like this- So when you do a job, a paying job, you make money. Say its $20/ hr after your expenses. So, when you do warranty work, the manufacturer covers you one of 2 ways.

1. They pay you a flat rate, not hourly, based on what they feel it should take, and you almost NEVER get diagnosis time,or very little. If travel time is given its paid at yet a lower rate and covers 1 hour max.

2. They pay your "burden labor rate" this means you lose no money, but you don't make any either. they literally pay what the "true cost" is to have the man there. We spend a few weeks at the end of each year calculating the burden for our different levels of techs. It covers all the expenses, folks in the office, coffee, lights, gas, etc.

Either way, its a LOSER for business. Why? well, you make nothing, but at least you don't lose money, right? WRONG!!! Your guy who is working on the warranty call is likely one of your better guys (because you can't send an apprentice out, or you are fighting with the manufacturer why it took so long, plus you already have an upset customer). Well, now that "best guy" could be out MAKING money ($20 per hour profit, and probably finding some pull thru also). Its a loss of potential profit, and its very real.

Also, many larger residential companies sell you an extended labor and/or parts warranty. often these are covered in-house and are basically like an insurance policy. They are betting on the intake upfront being less than the payout over time.

Then there are denied claims- yeah, it happens, alot! You know that "warranty" call where Mrs. Smith forgot to turn the stat to "cool"? yeah, the HVAC company is eating that 2 hour drive time, and the hour explaining to Mrs. Smith her system is fine and how to operate it....again!

In the commercial world, we do "full service" jobs where the equipment is covered 100% except for replacement. Tons of calculations go into these, and over the long haul, some win, some lose.

I file claims nearly everyday. Its time consuming, and often takes many weeks or months to get paid, and remember, that isn't for a profit, its to break even or maybe just loose less!

This is VERY simplified, and I love when folks who know nothing about business try to tell me we screw everyone, and its such easy work. LOL!

 

[Spdstr280Z]

Thanks for the insight guys, sound like it is a little different than I am used to. Especially since must of the products I am familiar with can come to the dealership. FWIW, I know there is a lot more to running a business than most people realize, and I know how bad it ***** when the internet reveals pricing, especially at very low margins or even below your cost. My only complaint in this thread is trying to understand why simple mini split installs like mine are priced as much as a split system in the US. Sounds like there are a lot of factors.

Thanks,

Jason

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Jackfre]

The reason is the contractor is not familiar enough with mshp's. Mini-splits have been around for a long time. I think I installed my first in about '78 or 9. Only in the last 8-10 years have they become really popular in the US. By his pricing model the contractor is telling you that he prefers the conventional systems. Or, perhaps he sees something that would make the system difficult to install. I think he should point that out if it is the case. Mshp installs like all other installs are very simple...until they aren't.

I have great respect for those who run a successful contacting business. It is not easy. In some states contractors must support a labor warranty for a period of time. In areas that I am familiar with it is generally 1 yr. That is how they "carry" them, in my experience. The manuf carries the equipment warranty. As noted some labor claims MAY, big may, be paid by the manuf, as described above. Everything said about the difficulty contractors have with manuf and distributors is accurate and nicely and calmly presented. Most are entitled to have their hair on fire over it. The aftermarket warranties are usually third party coverage. Most manuf gave up on "company owned" extended warranties as they had to carry the liability on their books for the duration of the warranty. Encumbering your books for 5 or 10 years isn't something that most want to do. I'm not a fan of extended warranties especially in HVAC. I saw Triad and EWC do really well for themselves over a couple years and then go Trump as claims grew.

I would suggest that you contact the Fujitsu factory rep in your area or at least the companies web site for "dealer locator" to find guys who like installing the mshp's and are familiar with them. Certainly no guarantee that they will be cheaper, but worth a look.

I think that what is driving the mshp's is that across North America for the last 30 years the gas industry has kicked the hell out of electric heat. Now with hspf's of 10-13 electric is looking better and better. The Utilities are re-claiming some of that heating business through aggressive rebates and it is working.

My ***** with mshp's, and I am a real fan of them, is cleaning the damned evaporators. The coils aren't that bad, but the fans...!!!!! I just had to do my daughters system and I know I have to do those in my own home, but I just got a call from a friend and his systems are not working very well. I asked, "when did you last clean them?" "Clean them? Clean them? What means 'dis clean dem?"

I think there is going to be more money in a service company that strictly cleans mini-splits than those who install them. Specialize. Become the guy who cleans everyone else's installs.