Garage Heater Question

[HDRKC07]

New member here. I have been reading posts on garage heaters and have a few questions. I live in North Central Indiana and have a 2 car attached garage with finished walls and ceiling approximately 700 sq. ft.. I work on cars and motorcycles out there plus do some project work and reloading of ammo. I have been looking at getting either a Modine Hot Dawg 45000 BTU or a Beacon-Morris 45000 BTU gas heater as we currently heat our home and cook with LP. Menard's currently has the Beacon-Morris on sale with 11% rebate bringing the cost down to $399.99. A local heating contractor gave me an initial price of $1500 to install the Beacon-Morris which includes venting, electrical hookup and attaching to gas line. Electrical and gas are readily available in the garage. Venting would be vertically through the ceiling, then about a 10-15ft run horizontally through the attic directly above the garage, then vertically through the garage roof on the backside of the house. He said if he installs a heater that I purchase there would be no labor or material warranty. The contractor sells Modine heaters that he would install for $2500, so essentially $1000 more for the Modine with a warranty on labor and material. My question is do either of these quotes sound reasonable? I called our regular heating and a/c people who installed our home heating system and they quoted me $4500 for a Reznor 30,000 BTU.
I thought that was way out of line. Thanks for any help or insights.

 

[D45]

Those are insane prices.......Do it yourself

I installed mine for under $400

 

[HDRKC07]

Thanks D45 - I just finished reading your thread on how your install went. Good job and man what a journey! Thanks for posting. I have thought about it, but I'm a little anxious about cutting a hole in the roof. I'll do some more looking at the threads and maybe I'll change my mind. Have to make a decision soon though as the heater won't be on sale much longer.

 

[Jackfre]

Rinnai EX22C lip. Simple install and great comfort

 

[dandan111]

Sounds expensive to me.

 

[Showkey]

I get the installer would not warranty the Beacon Morris heater but he will not stand behind his mechanical, gas line, electrical and venting work ?

Seems alittle high but........As far as pricing really depends on the material cost involved , he might not be too far off if he has $400-$500 in pipe/fitting/valves , breaker/wire/conduit, vent pipe plus hardware etc.

 

[HDRKC07]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Showkey - I agree that I can understand him not wanting to warranty the Beacon Morris heater, but it seemed strange to me also that he wasn't going to stand behind his installation work. Maybe the way he worded his quote was off - I don't know. I'm going to call him tomorrow and clarify. If I can ask another question. Does separate combustion hook up require this box that both the inlet and exhaust fit into in order to have one exit pipe thru the roof? Menards had these concentric vent pipes that said they were both intake and exhaust, but I didn't see any type of a 2 into 1 pipe that joined them for one exit thru the roof. I guess I didn't understand how you would connect those to the air intake side of the Beacon Morris to utilize separate combustion. I hope this makes sense. The kit that I saw on a website "littlegreenhouse.com" had kits that put the intake and exhaust into a box that utilized one pipe exiting the roof. Thanks

 

[Firebird 1]

I was going to get a hot dawg for my garage. My brother had one and it worked great. I ended up with a radiant heater. He has a buddy with one in his shop and said it was so much nicer than the hot dawg. I bought the heater from Northern Hardware on sale for less than $400. It does not need a vent kit, saving some money. My local gas co. is going to hook it up for me for a minimal charge.
Your price seems unreasonably high.

 

[D45]

Where are you at? I will come help.............cutting the hole was VERY nerve racking, but VERY easy

Measure 18 times, and cut once

Been dry with NO leaks

I have a power vent heater and my 3" b-vent kit was only like $65 shipped

 

[D45]

Do you have electrical near the area of the garage that you want it installed at?

How far is a nearby gas line?

 

[derkperk]

The concentric vent kits are for a condensing heater which neither you described are. Being in the garage, you shouldn't need to add combustion air. One 3-4" vent out the roof will be all. Can you place the unit to side vent it?

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[bczygan]

I would do it for you, for that!

 

[SteveeP]

I installed my Modine HotDawg through the wall with a through the wall vent kit. Certainly easier than going up through the roof.

 

[HDRKC07]

Thanks again everyone for all the feedback. This HVAC guy must be off because I've had offers from forum members to come do the install for that price! On the venting, I've done a lot more searching and reading the threads on this forum and should have done that before I posted. I do have a question though about the concentric kits. I've seen them on several websites and Menards for pricing around $220-$230. That does not include any piping needed for runs, exhaust through the roof, hookup on the back of the heater; is that correct? If that's right, then theoretically I could end up spending more for the concentric venting for separate combustion than the cost of the heater; right? If that's right, should I buy the piping from the same place as the kit?
I'm going to Menard's this afternoon to buy the Beacon-Morris 45K BTU heater as they have it on sale thru tomorrow for $399. The concentric kit from Menard's with the 11% rebate will be $226.83. If I need to purchase the piping for a vertical roof exit what kind do I look at; Type B or Cat III? Someone asked why I don't vent thru the wall. In my case, the heater is below an open attic. My home gas furnace is vented thru the same area which exits the roof on the backside of the garage. I really don't want the whole exhaust pipe visible from the front of the house. If I went horizontal, the exhaust would go thru my brick on the front - wife doesn't want that nor do I. Thanks again everyone for the help.

 

[D45]

I believe for a vertical vent, B-vent can be used

3" for 45k

Why do you need separate combustion?

Why not just a power vent heater and a $100 3" b-vent kit?

 

[D45]

Thanks D45 - I just finished reading your thread on how your install went. Good job and man what a journey! Thanks for posting. I have thought about it, but I'm a little anxious about cutting a hole in the roof. I'll do some more looking at the threads and maybe I'll change my mind. Have to make a decision soon though as the heater won't be on sale much longer.

Thanks, it was a long journey and very rewarding, and affordable to do it a little at a time

Maybe buy the heater now and slowly buy the other needed items over the course of the next few months......heater, vent kit, thermostat, gas line, electric supply, etc

Winter is about done in another month or two.........so if you can wait and slowly do it yourself, you'll save a ton of money

 

[HDRKC07]

Well, went and ordered the Beacon-Morris 45K BTU heater at Menard's yesterday to get the good price. They had it in stock, but by the time I got there, which was around 30 minutes after I checked on line; someone had come in and bought it, no big deal. Should have the heater in about 7-10 days per the guy at Menard's. D45 - from what I've been reading on the forum a separated combustion setup is recommended if doing work in the area involving sawdust, hazardous fumes, etc. I work on my cars and motorcycles out there using cleaning solvents etc. when cleaning parts in the parts washer. Plus some woodworking and I have my ammo reloading setup out there also. I also thought I read that it increases the lifespan and efficiency of the heater. If I'm not looking at this correctly then by all means let me know. I guess I must have "ticked off" the HVAC guy that quoted me the $1500 install after questioning his quote. I haven't heard back from him. Although, now after going back to Menard's and looking at the pricing on pieces of the vent pipe; especially if it has to be Cat III; maybe he wasn't so far off. If doing the concentric venting for separate combustion, does all the venting have to be Cat III or can some of it be Type B? So, waiting on the heater, will do more reading on this forum, and take any helpful advice from forum members. Thanks

 

[dave67fd]

Requirements changed in 2011. Your heater requires Cat III when venting horizontaly.
Make sure you check your local codes. In most instances/states will require one.
Permits also keep you covered with your insurance company. Many install the heater and electrical themselves (doesnt need a dedicated circuit but dont tie into a switched circuit) and may even do the exhaust but then get a permit for the gas install/hook-up.

 

[HDRKC07]

Dave67fd - Thanks for the feedback. Just to clarify, is CAT III also required for both the intake and exhaust runs in a vertical concentric installation? The more I read on the forum, all the different threads; the more confused I become on this subject. My venting run as I see it now in the planning stages is: Heater - small horizontal run to 90 degree elbow - vertical run thru ceiling into garage attic - another 90 degree elbow - longer horizontal run thru garage attic to exit point - another 90 degree elbow - vertical exit thru roof. The reasoning for this is exiting the vent pipe on the backside of my garage roof. Does this sound correct? Is the run too long? Exactly where in this vent strategy does the concentric box mount; is it at the garage ceiling prior to entry into the attic space or in the attic prior to exit thru the roof? Hope this makes sense. Thanks

 

[derkperk]

The long horizontal run through the unconditioned space would make me concerned about condensation and leaks.


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[onewheat]

I called our regular heating and a/c people who installed our home heating system and they quoted me $4500 for a Reznor 30,000 BTU.
I thought that was way out of line. Thanks for any help or insights.

My HVAC guy just quoted me $2100 installed for the Reznor UDAP75 (75k BTU). $4500 is ridiculous. Maybe my quote isn't as bad as I thought.

 

[HDRKC07]

Onewheat, did you get your garage heater installed yet?

 

[ky-mike]

I received a quote from a local HVAC company for $4,000 to install a Modine Hot Dawg 75,000 BTU unit. Gas is already plumbed to just outside the wall where the unit will be hung.

I can purchase all of the parts for about $1,000. Pretty ridiculous to have $3,000 in labor and parts markup. I would go for a $2,100 quote in a heartbeat.

 

[HDRKC07]

I finally got around to hanging my Beacon Morris heater from the ceiling in my garage and am waiting on the concentric vent kit (they have been on back order until mid Feb.). I thought I'd get the electrical done and need some help. My electrical panel is full, but I can use tandem breakers. The only single breaker in the panel is a 20amp for my main gas furnace. I thought about changing this to a tandem 20amp and running the new wiring for the garage heater from the other side of it. My other option is I have a pull chain light that is close to the heater which is on a 20amp circuit for all the outlets in the garage. I thought about taking the light down and attaching a metal box to that for power access, then running a bx whip to an emergency shut off switch mounted to the back of the heater. This would be easier option, but I want to do what is correct. I also need some help making sure the venting is correct. I'm still not sure after reading the directions in the install manual several times. Am I correct in thinking the air intake side can be vented using b-vent, but the exhaust side must be UL 1738 cat. III stainless? Thanks

 

[D45]

My heater only draws 3.8 amps, so I am sure yours may also be close..........

I would tap into the box also, like you said and run a switch to the heater

 

[derkperk]

My heater only draws 3.8 amps, so I am sure yours may also be close..........

I would tap into the box also, like you said and run a switch to the heater

This is perfectly ok

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[KCarGuy]

Its been Years Now, But I bought a Beacon Morris 75K unit for My 2 story 3.5 car Garage.

I remember quotes for Install being out of line also.

So much so, that I dug the trench, ran the Black Pipe (above Ground) and the Underground Pipe (inside Plastic Tubing), hung my Heater, Piped the Electric, hooked up a low Temp thermostat and Ran the Venting (out the Back Wall) myself.

Doing all your research, checking with friends and their existing setups and taking your time. Then Check and double check all you connections....And you can save a good chunk of change for More Tools.

My Menards Beacon Morris Unit has run Great for Years and Years...Its a Good Heater.
Most people have an issue if they hook up the the neutral and hot incorrect. (ground is usually correct)

Good Luck and Stay Warm!

 

[D45]

^^^^^^this

Do it all yourself, when and if possible

 

[HDRKC07]

Hey Guys, Thanks for all the feedback, but that's exactly what I'm doing since the original post. I also thought the quote for an install was too high and started doing the work myself. Maybe I should have started a new thread with my install questions. I have hung the heater and am getting ready to do the electrical. That was one of the reasons for my earlier post, asking if those options for wiring were OK. Now I'm still not clear on the separated combustion venting. That was the second part of my question. I have ordered the concentric vent kit but they are on back order until mid February. I am doing a vertical vent thru the backside of the garage as a horizontal won't work in my case. After reading the install manual several times and searching on this forum; I'm still not sure about a few things and need some help. Am I correct that the air intake side of the vent can use b-vent, but the entire exhaust vent side must be UL 1738 Category III stainless? Also, on a vertical vent through the roof; does the concentric vent box have to be on the underside of the roof? The reason I ask is that if the exhaust side has to be Cat. III going from the heater, thru the garage ceiling and then 7-8 feet to the concentric box on the underside of the roof the cost increases substantially when paired with the intake side also running to the box. I've seen pictures of horizontal concentric vents where the box was on the inside wall of the garage. Can this principal be applied to a vertical venting with the concentric vent box being at the ceiling inside the garage. That way I have only one run of pipe going 7-8 feet before exiting the roof. I hope that's clear. Really appreciate any help or pictures. One last question, if I have to run two vent pipes through my finished garage ceiling do I use 4" fire stops around each pipe ie., the intake and exhaust. Thanks

 

[onewheat]

Onewheat, did you get your garage heater installed yet?

Late answer, but no. My "installer" was going to schedule with me for mid-last week and hasn't returned 3 calls back to him. I guess that means he is no longer interested and I have quit trying to get a hold of him. I will figure out how to do this myself, I guess or get my B-I-L to come down from Cincinnati to give me a hand some weekend - although that could take months.

 

[toyotadriver]

For your application you don't really need a sealed combustion unit. I would just vent it vertically with B vent pipe.

 

[HDRKC07]

Hey thanks guys for the replies
Onewheat - that's what happened to me with installers. I couldn't get anyone to do the work, so I did some more reading on the forum and started the install myself. Heater is up and secured to the ceiling and now working on the wiring for heater and thermostat.
Toyotadriver - I explained earlier in the thread why I'm going with separated combustion. Working on cars/morotcycles, some carpentry work remodeling, and my reloading area is out there. I just feel safer going this route.
I found a thread searching last night where another had asked similar questions about placement of the concentric vent box, but never really got an answer. If anyone has any experience with using the concentric vent box in a vertical roof exit install where it isn't a straight shot up through the roof or just has some helpful ideas; I'd sure appreciate the input. As far I can find out, it appears that b-vent can be used on the intake side, but Cat. III stainless pipe must be used for the exhaust side. Again, please if this isn't correct let me know. Thanks for the help.

 

[toyotadriver]

It's your money. I do the exact same type of work in my shop and I don't have a sealed combustion unit and it works fine.

 

[HDRKC07]

Toyotadriver - Appreciate the feedback and believe me I know money doesn't grow on trees; especially when you're retired. Thought long and hard about it, but just felt better this way.

 

[ratdoggy]

Where are you at? I will come help.............cutting the hole was VERY nerve racking, but VERY easy

Measure 18 times, and cut once

Been dry with NO leaks

I have a power vent heater and my 3" b-vent kit was only like $65 shipped

You only measured 18 times? I'd probably do it 50

 

[onewheat]

Hey thanks guys for the replies
Onewheat - that's what happened to me with installers. I couldn't get anyone to do the work, so I did some more reading on the forum and started the install myself. Heater is up and secured to the ceiling and now working on the wiring for heater and thermostat.

Yeah, it ***** trying to give money away to someone, doesn't it? It's almost impossible to do anymore.

Hanging it is my biggest issue because no doubt I'll be doing it alone and my ceiling is 13.5' (or so). I'm not sure how to get it up that high by myself, although I'm starting to formulate some ideas from another thread on here. I have electric in a junction box where I want to hang it and I have a 1" gas line close by to run to.

I also keep reading threads about venting, but I don't think I feel much clearer on it. I'm assuming Cat III Stainless but I'm not sure how to get through the wall? I am brick outside, whatever the sheathing is, 2x6 studs with blown-in-batt insulation and plywood walls - so it's thick and combustible. I guess I could pull down a sheet of plywood and frame a square between joists and keep that square free of insulation. Also, not sure how to cut cleanly through the brick? I might have to buy another tool.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

why not post the couple of pages that refer to venting in the installation manual and maybe we can help you a little.

I did look on Beacon Morris web site and taking a guess that you have a brt model I read the instructions for the venting with the combustion box.

The way I read it you can vent as type "B" for exhaust and single wall pipe for the combustion air and the combustion air box would mount just below the roof (just like the sketch). From that point you would run the two pipes, the type "B" for the exhaust and single wall for the combustion air thru the attic and then down thru the garage ceiling and tie them into your heater. The two things to make sure of is that you don't exceed the total length of the exhaust and combustion air runs that they allow and I believe some where it refer to the vertical portion of the stack has to be at least 33% of the total length to be considered a vertical vent.
make sure you pitch the pipe 1/4"/ft from the unit up to the roof opening, we use to use a support called a vent fast where we went thru the ceiling that supports the pipe and keeps it clear of the joist.

 

[CKS1955]

Here is what I did and was signed off by a Beacon Morris tech:

1) Exhaust Flue Vent Pipe:
-Heatfab Saf-t Vent EZ Seal made from AL 29-4C stainless steel, certified for category I, II, III & IV.
-Single wall 4" diameter, overall length 60" +/-.
-Installed straight with a 1/4" slope to the vent.
-Terminated with 4" screened termination tee.

2) Combustion Air Inlet Pipe:
-Snap together 4" duct from the combustion air inlet kit to the heater air intake.
-Snap together 7" duct from the combustion air inlet kit to the air inlet screen.

It is my understanding that B-vent is not to be used on this unit.

Jay

 

[D45]

It is my understanding that B-vent is not to be used on this unit.

I believe he is correct

 

[CKS1955]

Here is a good write up for a horizontal install:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316473

Jay