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Gas heater or Mini Split for heat

dtaski

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Oct 9, 2018
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South Central PA
Newbie typing his first post from South Central PA. I recently built a 24 X 38 detached garage with 9'6" walls. It is insulated with R 19. All doors are insulated.

I'm trying to decide if I want to run a gas line from my house to heat it or possibly install a mini split system. Primary use is HEAT in the winter , set to 50deg.

The GAS LINE would be about 70ft. Quotes are $2000-3000. That buys quite a bit of electricity !!

My Breaker panel has a 240V ,20 amp breaker available.

Insight please !
 
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justinjoyal

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Considering average winter temperatures in your area I think a mini-split would work and perform well.

A single 2t unit should do.
 

AA7483

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South Jersey
You'll have no problem keeping your shop 50 degrees with a properly sized mini split. Plus you'll have cooling as well. Recovery will be slower than gas heat so if you plan on turning it on when you want to go out and work it'll take some time to get to temp. If you want a consistent 50 degrees or 70 or whatever the mini split is the way to go. That's the route I plan on going. I'm an HVAC contractor. I couldn't justify the need to run a gas line since I'm not out there enough. You could always go the propane tank route if your set on gas.
 

ace10

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Mitsu hyper heat will work below zero F.

I have two 1.5T units in my garage. Not sure if they can be set down to 50F. Would need to check with their tech support.
 

justinjoyal

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I believe on your Coldest days your minisplit won't work.

Does the HVAC guy have a unit in mind that heats at zero degree Ambient and if so, to what differential?
I might have missed that particular unit in my search.


You mustve been looking at « entry-level » units because the good ones actually perform really well even under -20F.

OP will have absolutely no problem heating his garage considering the average winter temps where he’s at.
 

Voi

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Western South Dakota
Appreciate the insight so far !!! What do they call the feature for it to operate at the lower temps ? Auxiliary heat ?

In Mitsubishi's case it's called Hyper Heat. In Fujitsu's case I think it's just called Extra Low Temperature Heating, or XLTH. Not sure about the other major manufacturers.

I have a more entry level Fujitsu at my cabin that is rated down to 5* F outside heating temperature. I'm not sure how well it will work at that temperature as this is its first winter.

Also, if you want to keep your garage at 50* F you'll need to make sure yours can either be set that low or has a vacation mode.

My thermostat only goes down to 60* F and I believe has a vacation mode of 45* F.
 

Kaizen

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Look at high end minisplit prices. Mitsubishi and the like. I have a mr cool diy and it’s great for 40s but works too hard below say 43. Yea it heats but not well at low temps. I’m told higher end ones will.


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Highbeam

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Just because the heat pump will "operate" at -20 doesn't mean that it will make enough heat. Typically, output is reduced at these very low outside air temperatures. Some brands more than others and when it's -20 is when you need it MOST! So look into the specifications for output at those very low temperatures and compare that to your buildings energy loss at that same low temperature.
 

ace10

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Just because the heat pump will "operate" at -20 doesn't mean that it will make enough heat. Typically, output is reduced at these very low outside air temperatures. Some brands more than others and when it's -20 is when you need it MOST! So look into the specifications for output at those very low temperatures and compare that to your buildings energy loss at that same low temperature.

-20F really isn't on the table for the OP.

I'm roughly in the same USDA zone, and I plan for 0F as minimum. Though we can dip just into the negative numbers.
 

ransil

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Gas for heat, Gas is cheap.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

justinjoyal

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Just because the heat pump will "operate" at -20 doesn't mean that it will make enough heat. Typically, output is reduced at these very low outside air temperatures. Some brands more than others and when it's -20 is when you need it MOST! So look into the specifications for output at those very low temperatures and compare that to your buildings energy loss at that same low temperature.



Of course. This is why proper sizing for your needs is important.

However in the case of OP, most high end mini-splits would provide almost full output even during the coldest days from what I found as far as temp average goes.
 

yeldogt

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I'm thinking you will need more than 20amps. Also, you will need to size much larger if you want to be able to raise the temp from 50 degrees in any reasonable amount of time.

Figure out the load needed for the building -- That will give you the various sizes and degree days at different temps. Remember the typical formulas are only going to give you the numbers to maintain. 50 is cold when you want to bring the temps up to 65. with those numbers you can figure out the electric cost.

A nice modulating NG cabinet heater in a well insulated shop is very nice. It's not cheap to outfit a shop to both heat and cool -- done correctly they don't cost all that much to keep comfortable.
 
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Showkey

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If NAT gas is available..........I would never ever consider a heat pump. (Mini split)

NAT gas cheap to run and generally inexpensive to install.

In cold temps that mini split will run continuously and if your electric rates aren’t dirt cheap your going to pay through the nose. That slow recovery in shop is not feature.

Lived in PA and NJ twice.........one home witha a newer HP ..........the home never felt warm and the cost was extremely high for service and operation.
 
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Jackfre

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For $2-3k i’d Buy a new shovel and dig a trench. Buy some 1” poly pipe and have someone qualified do the tie ins. For a 2ton unit you will need a 30 amp circuit. A heat pump will handle your load, but a gas fired Rinnai EX38 will do better.
 

strutaeng

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Dallas, TX
Damn! I was going to post earlier that gas is they way to go. A high-end mini-splut is going to be $3k. THAT'S what your gas installation is going to be. A gas heater is way cheaper and I think cheaper to operate.

I'm currently running gas to my detached garage. I rented a trencher for a drainage project and just decided to trench for gas for my garage while I had the opportunity for the weekend. Materials is probably no more than $300, maybe $400 pushing it in my case with a clothes dryer connection for the Mrs.....

I know mini spit is all the hype, but if it makes sense in.my climate, look into payback in your climate!

Good luck.
 

matt_i

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The nice thing about gas is that you can let it ride at 35F (or so) and then ramp it up to 50 or even 70 while you work, and then let it coast back down. If you can get a wifi/smartphone app tstat then you can ramp it up while driving home.

As others have said, a system that's barely able to maintain is going to have to run constantly...I liken it to the work that a dehumidifier is doing (except in reverse) and I hate the constant electricity that a dehumidifier consumes....

One strategy could be to install the mini and see if it works for you. If it doesn't then use it for A/C in the summer, and save up for the gas line install for winter. a NG heating unit doesn't require an exotic circuit, just 120vac.
 

bugnut

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My .02¢ as I am looking at heating cooling also, so I read these threads over and over. Only advantage to a mini split is AC in the summer, that can be a blessing in the area with 90-100% humidity and 85-95 deg days. Mini splits that I have seen from Alaska to South Carolina are noisy when the fan runs and it runs a lot if you are trying to drive up or down the room/building temperature. Gas heater is on and off quicker recovery BUT no AC....
 

aunsafe2015

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Northern VA
Mini splits that I have seen from Alaska to South Carolina are noisy when the fan runs and it runs a lot if you are trying to drive up or down the room/building temperature.

That's odd. Most everybody on this forum who owns a mini split, I think, would comment on how quiet they are. Mine is barely audible even at highest fan speed.

Anybody here who owns a mini split and thinks it is loud/noisy?
 
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justinjoyal

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That's odd. Most everybody on this forum who owns a mini split, I think, would comment on how quiet they are. Mine is barely audible even at highest fan speed.

Anybody here who owns a mini split and thinks it is loud/noisy?



Yeah i hardly ever hear someone complain about a noisy mini-split!

Choosing the right heating solution depends heavily on the climate and utility costs.

Here in Quebec electricity is cheap. A heat pump costs less to run than a gas-fired unit. Also, our houses are better insulated. Combine that with a mid/high-end mini-split and you’ve got yourself very cheap heat ! (Plus A/C.)

Compare your options and choose wisely!
 

dsimatt

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That's odd. Most everybody on this forum who owns a mini split, I think, would comment on how quiet they are. Mine is barely audible even at highest fan speed.

Anybody here who owns a mini split and thinks it is loud/noisy?

It depends on how you are using it, my Mitsubishi hyper heat I turn on in the morning to warm up before work so taking the temp from 69 to 73 and it is loud think box fan on high but it also warms to the set temp in less than a hour. Once you get to the set temp it idles down and is noticeable if you're just sitting there but put on the tv and get people inside and you don't hear it.

The one plus side is constant heat output, yes it varies to load but better than the temp fluctuations and listening to the heater kick on wide open like gas units do.
 
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yeldogt

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When you use any system with a large setback -- it's going to run on "high" to try and get the temp back up. That's the only time when I hear my mini splits or VS traditional heat pumps. They make a bit more noise on high in the winter. What you are trying to do with any system set back is to manage it against the outside temp -- and heat gain in the summer. In other words -- allow the temp to float up and down based on a constant BTU output vs increasing the BTU to maintain the temp. This allows some savings -- no waste when not using and no extended recovery.

W/O knowing the electric rates and the load -- it hard to give any recommendations. My 1700sf studio in PA can be maintained with about 14k BTU's -- so not very much.
 

finn

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My Mitsubishi Hyper heat units emit a detectable noise when running on high to “catch up”, but it is insignificant compared to the gas hanging unit heaters in the shop.
 

yeldogt

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We woke up to a little chill in the house this morning -- clicked on the HP's (carrier split and Mitsubishi 3 head system) The carrier only went to stage 3 -- but the head in the addition went to full ... can hear the fan. It was 68
 

polizei1

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Cinci, OH
I posted something similar earlier this year when planning my garage. The general consensus was to have separate units, as the mini-splits don't seem to do well when it gets really cold, even the high end units which are very expensive.

I would think it would be better to set and keep the garage a certain temp all season long with a mini split, so it wouldn't have to play catch up and try to heat from zero. In the long run, probably more expensive than a NG heater.
 

mike88

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Oct 6, 2018
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Alabama
I really like my mini split, easy install, no flue pipe, quite, a/c in summer, its a fujitsu 2 ton. we do get in single digit temps for short periods & some snow & it works great. i did use the wall bracket for outdoor unit to elevate it in case of deep snow.
 

theoldwizard1

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For heat only it is hard to beat the cost of operation of a gas furnace. Normally their installation is low, but trenching in that 70' changes everything (unless you ACTUALLY ENJOY digging a 70' trench by hand).

The big bonus of a mini-split is A/C. Even if you only use it a few times a year, you will surely appreciate it !
 

mnyankee1

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Just joined Garage Journal today so please let me know if I need to start a new post even though I have all the same questions.

Will a mini-split work to heat/cool a 30x36 pole building with 14' ceilings? Building has two 12x12 doors and one entry door. Also has 1/4" Reflectix insulation on walls and ceiling. Building is in NW Arkansas where it can easily be near 100 in the summer and get down to single digits in the winter. NG gas line is at least 250' away so that's part of my thinking a mini-split would be better.
 

tyme2par4

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Just joined Garage Journal today so please let me know if I need to start a new post even though I have all the same questions.

Will a mini-split work to heat/cool a 30x36 pole building with 14' ceilings? Building has two 12x12 doors and one entry door. Also has 1/4" Reflectix insulation on walls and ceiling. Building is in NW Arkansas where it can easily be near 100 in the summer and get down to single digits in the winter. NG gas line is at least 250' away so that's part of my thinking a mini-split would be better.

If all it has is 1/4" insulation, you need to put in some real insulation first, or you are just throwing tons of money away trying to cool it.
Once you have insulated, a mini split would work just fine, unless those doors are constantly being opened.
 

finn

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The nice thing about gas is that you can let it ride at 35F (or so) and then ramp it up to 50 or even 70 while you work, and then let it coast back down. If you can get a wifi/smartphone app tstat then you can ramp it up while driving home.

As others have said, a system that's barely able to maintain is going to have to run constantly...I liken it to the work that a dehumidifier is doing (except in reverse) and I hate the constant electricity that a dehumidifier consumes....

One strategy could be to install the mini and see if it works for you. If it doesn't then use it for A/C in the summer, and save up for the gas line install for winter. a NG heating unit doesn't require an exotic circuit, just 120vac.

Many gas heaters have a minimum recommended operating ambient temp set point of 50 degrees to avoid condensation induced heat exchanger corrosion.

I would still recommend NG or propane over an electric device, such as a mini split, unless you are in a mild climate where ac is more important than heating, or you have dirt cheap electric rates.
 

mnyankee1

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If all it has is 1/4" insulation, you need to put in some real insulation first, or you are just throwing tons of money away trying to cool it.
Once you have insulated, a mini split would work just fine, unless those doors are constantly being opened.
I am looking into adding more insulation. So is a mini split strong enough to blow the air all the way across the building? My fear is that the area where the mini split is will be warmer/cooler than the rest of the shop depending upon the season.
 

ChuckUni

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Many gas heaters have a minimum recommended operating ambient temp set point of 50 degrees to avoid condensation induced heat exchanger corrosion.

I am in SE PA and have been looking to heat my ~1000sq ft well insulated space. I went through all the options for NG unit heater, NG house furnace, and mini split. I ended up going with a Fujitsu mini split install. The install is in progress now, so I can't tell you how well it's working just yet, but per the research it should be fine.

In researching, I found most home gas furnaces seem to have a 60 deg min set temperature on the documents. Combine lower set temp or over sized furnace with shorter run times and you will most likely rot out the heat exchanger. They will at least try to deny warranty if they can claim it was run too low. Reznor has a stainless heat exchanger option on their unit heaters, so that is an option. But for home style furnaces it's a potential restriction.

My space is split into two sections with only a doorway size opening between. For the minisplit setup I ended up pricing out two options - one with a larger compressor unit (30k btu) to run two heads inside and then another option with two completely separate units (15k btu, each). Fujitsu has some rebates going that made the two unit option cost effective. Plus, with two units I will have redundancy and significantly higher efficiency of the smaller units. Downside is two outside units hanging on the wall verses a larger single unit outside and a bit more install work. Per the performance documents, the two setup should output more heat at all temps, even though the nominal rating is the same.

Why did I go this route?

The division in the space cut back the ease of a unit heater install. It would take two to do right and one would be hard to exhaust because of location. The house furnace option would work and potentially give the option of adding A/C, but it would require ducting to the second space. This which would take up valuable room inside the work space or end up in the attic, taking up space and needing to be fully insulated. I also wanted low set temp and kept running into the low temp set disclaimers and warnings of the same from installers.

I finally ended up on Fujitsu, partially because of their low temp setting for 50 degrees as quick set on the remotes. Went with the XLTH option just for a bit of piece of mind as the record low temps here would occasionally push the recommended low temp limits of the normal units. Specs are for rated heat output down to -15f, which we've hit once in the last 40 years, so that shouldn't be a concern. Efficiency should be good with about 30 SEER and 14 HSPF.

Plus, this year has been crazy with rain. The space has been extra humid with little chance to dry down and now I have mold. With the mini split I have AC and can regulate summer humidity, a major bonus.

The cost was a high, but only a bit higher than a high efficiency gas furnace with some minimal duct work, without A/C. Probably about the same cost as gas furnace/duct work with A/C or even a bit cheaper. However, it would be harder to get the a/c cost option past my wife as a separate item. With the minisplit, it's just part of the package.

I will update when it's 0 degrees out and let you know how it's going.
 

tyme2par4

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I am looking into adding more insulation. So is a mini split strong enough to blow the air all the way across the building? My fear is that the area where the mini split is will be warmer/cooler than the rest of the shop depending upon the season.

If you are concerned about it, you can either get a 2 head unit, or a couple ceiling fans to help circulate the air.
 
OP
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dtaski

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Oct 9, 2018
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South Central PA
UPDATE

It's been a month since my original post and I finished the installation of a 18000 mini split system this past weekend. I did the install myself ( took about 10 hours) and had a HVAC friend check for leaks and evac the system before releasing the freon.

Over all I'm happy with the system but 1 thing I learned is this system will not operate cooler than 62deg in the HEAT mode. I was planning on setting it a 50 but there isn't any way to do this out of the box.
 
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Jackfre

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Depending upon the manuf you chose I think you can get lower temps by going with the optional wall thermostat.
 

theoldwizard1

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UPDATE
Over all I'm happy with the system but 1 thing I learned is this system will not operate cooler than 62deg in the HEAT mode. I was planning on setting it a 50 but there isn't any way to do this out of the box.
BUYER BEWARE !

Better quality systems will definitely work down to 0F and below. You have to learn how to read and understand the specs !
 
OP
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dtaski

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South Central PA
BUYER BEWARE !

Better quality systems will definitely work down to 0F and below. You have to learn how to read and understand the specs !

BUYER WAS AWARE of outdoor operating temps. I overlooked indoor unit operating temps.

I've been doing more research and most systems won't heat below 62deg , out of the box.
 

SALIV8

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chicago and s/w michigan
BUYER BEWARE !

Better quality systems will definitely work down to 0F and below. You have to learn how to read and understand the specs !

He's talking about indoor set point, not outdoor temps.

My minis will go into a freeze mode setting which allows down to 48* (or there abouts I forgot the exact degree), but I can only go down to 61* on heat mode with mine.
 
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