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Generator/house wiring issue

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MushCreek

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Well, the latest storm tested out my generator hook-up, and it failed. Every time I turned on the breaker on the generator, it immediately clicked off. I tested everything- the genny itself, the cord, the connection to the house. My rig goes in through a 30A breaker, with a mechanical lock-out so you have to shut off the main breaker before turning on the input breaker. My panel is different, because the ground and neutral buss bars are separate and isolated from each other. I'm not sure what this set-up is called, but it is required because my main panel is technically a subpanel (long story). At any rate, the only way I could get it to work was to disconnect the ground wire going into the panel. Then, it worked fine. Any suggestions? I don't like having the ground disconnected, but it got us through a 5 day outage.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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MushCreek said:
Well, the latest storm tested out my generator hook-up, and it failed. Every time I turned on the breaker on the generator, it immediately clicked off. I tested everything- the genny itself, the cord, the connection to the house. My rig goes in through a 30A breaker, with a mechanical lock-out so you have to shut off the main breaker before turning on the input breaker.
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Is the receptacle on the generator, the cord, and the inlet 3-wire or 4-wire?
MushCreek said:
My panel is different, because the ground and neutral buss bars are separate and isolated from each other. I'm not sure what this set-up is called, but it is required because my main panel is technically a subpanel (long story).
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This just means the panel is a subpanel but shouldnt affect the generator at all.
MushCreek said:
At any rate, the only way I could get it to work was to disconnect the ground wire going into the panel. Then, it worked fine. Any suggestions? I don't like having the ground disconnected, but it got us through a 5 day outage.
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thats very odd. under normal operations the ground wire has no current on it. so it shouldnt be affecting the generator. if you had to disconnect it to prevent the breaker from tripping, this tells me you have a line to ground fault somewhere and the breaker was clearing the fault.

can you post pics of your setup
 
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MushCreek

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Everything is 4 wire. Two hots, neutral, and bare ground. I have a special generator plug on the outside of the house that takes a special generator cord. The outlet is wired directly to the inside panel, going to a 30A breaker, the neutral buss bar, and the ground buss bar. Nothing is shorted out that I can see or test for. The genny is GFIC, so there's something there that it doesn't like.
 
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dcg9381

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mike93lx

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I recently had a similar issue, ended up finding a short in the romex going to the inlet box... Some ***** tightened a clamp too far... Hack homeowners that think owning linesmans make them a sparky.

What are the special plugs and cords you are using? L14-30 or something else?
 
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wyliesdiesels

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MushCreek said:
Everything is 4 wire. Two hots, neutral, and bare ground. I have a special generator plug on the outside of the house that takes a special generator cord. The outlet is wired directly to the inside panel, going to a 30A breaker, the neutral buss bar, and the ground buss bar. Nothing is shorted out that I can see or test for. The genny is GFIC, so there's something there that it doesn't like.
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what is this special generator plug you have? have a picture?

If the receptacle on the gen has a GFCI receptacle and its tripping, its either one of 2 things- theres a ground fault (meaning current is leaking outside the circuit of 2 hots and neutral) or the GFCI is bad. they do go bad... you could try replacing the GFCI on the gen to see if the problem goes away
 
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wyliesdiesels

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MushCreek

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I think the cord is a regular L14-30. The male end plugs into the genny, the female end plugs onto the prongs of the generator outlet I put on the house. I checked the cord to make sure that the Chinese didn't somehow cross up the wiring to the plugs. I examined the white neutral wire going from the outlet to the panel, and there are no breaks or bare wire. Likewise, the bare copper ground looks good, not touching anywhere it shouldn't.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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MushCreek said:
I think the cord is a regular L14-30. The male end plugs into the genny, the female end plugs onto the prongs of the generator outlet I put on the house. I checked the cord to make sure that the Chinese didn't somehow cross up the wiring to the plugs. I examined the white neutral wire going from the outlet to the panel, and there are no breaks or bare wire. Likewise, the bare copper ground looks good, not touching anywhere it shouldn't.
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so the cord ends are 14-30? why did you call them special? im confused here

how did you inspect the neutral wire going from the receptacle to the panel? what kind of wire did you run? NM-b would be in a jacket so you wouldnt be able to see the neutral and loose individual conductors are required to be in conduit inside the wall

can you post some pictures?
 
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MushCreek

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No, I didn't use conduit. These wires are only about a foot or so long. I had to treat the main panel as a sub panel because it doesn't directly align with the meter box. To do so would have put the meter too close to the ground, or the main panel too high.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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MushCreek said:
No, I didn't use conduit. These wires are only about a foot or so long.
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well thats a code violation
MushCreek said:
I had to treat the main panel as a sub panel because it doesn't directly align with the meter box. To do so would have put the meter too close to the ground, or the main panel too high.
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this doesnt make sense. height of boxes has no bearing on weather something is a main panel or subpanel.

is there a disconnect in the meter box? or is it just a meter pan? if just a meter pan, then you wouldnt treat the "main panel" as a subpanel.

can you post some pics of what you have. youve post lots of confusing info

:needpics:
 
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wyliesdiesels

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dcg9381 said:
He didn't say. Which is why I asked for the make/model. It's Honda EB 6500 which seems to come bonded. I provided a link above.


1727981279763.png
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ok so the bonding in the generator would have no effect on the GFCI because its on the line side of the GFCI

what would could affect the GFCI is the neutral bonding in the main panel. wouldve been good for the OP to tell us about the GFCI on the genny in the first post.
 
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MushCreek

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I had to use a meter box with a disconnect because the meter and panel don't line up. According to the inspector, any misalignment makes this a requirement. I'll take some pics tomorrow.
 
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mm08822

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The neutral and grd are bonded at the main panel. The current in the neutral returning to the gen is split between it and the grd wire. The gfci at the gen is doing its job and detecting that the sum of all currents through it is > 5ma.

In this usage configuration, the gen gfci will always trip.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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mm08822 said:
The neutral and grd are bonded at the main panel. The current in the neutral returning to the gen is split between it and the grd wire. The gfci at the gen is doing its job and detecting that the sum of all currents through it is > 5ma.

In this usage configuration, the gen gfci will always trip.
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bingo. wouldve been helpful to have the GFCI on the genny info in the first post
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Metallitubby said:
It is. All Honda EB series generators are bonded. I can share how to remove the bond with individuals, but will not post it for everyone.
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youre not following my line of questioning. we dont know if the OP bought it new or used. if he bought it used its entirely possible that the previous owner unbonded it

furthermore, while it should be unbonded since there should be only one neutral bond on a service, that has no bearing on the GFCI tripping issue which is only affected by load side bonding.
 
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curliejones

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Metallitubby said:
It is. All Honda EB series generators are bonded. I can share how to remove the bond with individuals, but will not post it for everyone.
Click to expand...
And years later…. I have a Wheelhouse genny and easily found the bonding wire. I installed a 50A toggle switch so I can break the bond when hooked to the house or connect the bond for stand alone.
 
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mike93lx

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Metallitubby said:
It is. All Honda EB series generators are bonded. I can share how to remove the bond with individuals, but will not post it for everyone.
Click to expand...
Why is it a secret? Champion posts how to videos on YouTube for their models. Honda wants it done at a service center?
 
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Metallitubby

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curliejones said:
And years later…. I have a Wheelhouse genny and easily found the bonding wire. I installed a 50A toggle switch so I can break the bond when hooked to the house or connect the bond for stand alone.
Click to expand...

The document/process I am referring to covers all Honda EB series generators (40+ models) and takes about 2 minutes to perform on most units.
 
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EricS

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I'd unplug all the parts then starting with the generator. Does the generator run and not trip with nothing plugged in? if so I'd try plugging in a corded tool and seeing if running that seems fine I'd add one part at a time till the breaker trips. Hopefully this will narrow things down to an area to focus on ,

I say this not knowing how you tested the various parts of the system.
 
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MushCreek

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Well, I got to spend a few more days on the genny. Our power went BACK out Saturday, and just came back on. Yes, the genny works fine with things plugged into it. I used it extensively the last time this happened, about four years ago. At that time, I didn't have a direct hook-up, so I had extension cords running all over the place. I thought I'd do it 'right' and put in a dedicated set-up so I could have full access to power. It works fine with the ground disconnected, but I'd like to know why, and whether it is safe. Right now, I have bigger fish to fry.
 
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