GFCI Outlet or ...

[Bevis]

Question, wiring up my outlets now, Do I have to use a GFCI outlet or can I use the GFCI Breaker ?
If I have to use the outlet, I'm gonna put them all in one location.

 

[mrb]

the circuit has to be GFCI protected, whether you use a gfci breaker or outlet is up to you. I recommend against GFCI breaker.

 

[Bevis]

may I ask why you are agianst breaker ?? wanting to learn.

 

[Norcal]

Question, wiring up my outlets now, Do I have to use a GFCI outlet or can I use the GFCI Breaker ?
If I have to use the outlet, I'm gonna put them all in one location.

GFCI receptacles are considerably cheaper then GFCI circuit breakers, that being said, the GFCI receptacles were removed from my shop & replaced w/ GFCI circuit breakers the ones use in the shop were GE THQB (bolt-on type) which are even more expensive then standard residential type breakers, if one has obsolete panel such as Zinsco/Sylvania, FPE, I-T-E Pushmatic, they are either no longer avail. or used & of dubious value.

 

[mrb]

may I ask why you are agianst breaker ?? wanting to learn.

Cost, panel fill, having to go to the panel to reset a tripped gfci breaker, etc. I like the leviton smart lock pro gfci receptacles which have an LED indicator on them.

 

[BioHazard]

Cost of a GFCI breaker vs a nice spec grade GFCI outlet can't be more than about 10 bucks. I wanna say the Siemens 20A breakers are around $26 at HD. Good GFCI outlets are $15-20.

The only reason I would avoid the panel mounted GFCI is the fact that you have to go back to the panel to turn it on. In my shop I added several GFCI outlets in the first string with other outlets, but I ended up putting an individual GFCI outlet in each place so one won't trip the other.

 

[Aceman]

Cost, panel fill, having to go to the panel to reset a tripped gfci breaker, etc.

How does a GFCI breaker affect panel fill? And how many times do you really need to reset a GFCI breaker? If it happens that often it might be an indicator a tool or piece of equipment should be replaced.

 

[Bevis]

I like the leviton smart lock pro gfci receptacles which have an LED indicator on them.

I picked up 6 of these this evening...thanks.

 

[harvero]

How does a GFCI breaker affect panel fill? And how many times do you really need to reset a GFCI breaker? If it happens that often it might be an indicator a tool or piece of equipment should be replaced.

Panel fill, perhaps because the GFI breaker is a full slot wide, which would service a circuit that could of been ran of one half of one of those single pole duplex breakers.

 

[BioHazard]

And how many times do you really need to reset a GFCI breaker?

Even once I guarantee most people will be cussing them out. I think the biggest problem comes when lighting circuits are run from the GFCI, it blows, and all the sudden you're in the dark.

 

[noslo04]

GFCI breakers are being installed in my 100A garage subpanel, located in the same space as the circuits it serves. Outlets in my garage are very likely to get banged-up and replacement costs for standard outlets are much less than GFCI ones.

 

[Norcal]

If you see a panel in a new install filled w/ twin breakers it is a sure sign of a poorly thought out panel, or cheaping out, either one is a red flag. A GFCI circuit will use a full 3/4" or 1" space depending on the make of panel (Cutler-Hammer type CH, & SQ D QO use a 3/4" per pole width) I only use twins if it is necessary to do the job because of the panel being full.

 

[Aceman]

I agree with Norcal. I avoid twins in a new panel as much as possible. I've used 200 amp 30 space panels when I only needed a 100 amp sub just to get the extra spaces.

I think the biggest problem comes when lighting circuits are run from the GFCI, it blows, and all the sudden you're in the dark.

You don't put lighting circuits on GFCI's. That's just asking for it. Two, maybe you should consider some emergency lights if you're left in the dark.

 

[Norcal]

I agree with Norcal. I avoid twins in a new panel as much as possible. I've used 200 amp 30 space panels when I only needed a 100 amp sub just to get the extra spaces.



You don't put lighting circuits on GFCI's. That's just asking for it. Two, maybe you should consider some emergency lights if you're left in the dark.

A cheap wiring job has lighting & receptacles sharing circuits. IMO, a proper job will have them on separate circuits, this applies to any type of use.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The advantage to the GFCI breakers is that when they do trip, you at least know where to go looking to reset them. With receptacles, it is a unwritten law of electricity that the GFCI receptacle that feeds the rest of the circuit is hidden somewhere behind something.

I prefer the best standard receptacles I can find, Leviton Pro grade. They really grab a plug. You cannot find a GFCI receptacle that grips like that.

Charles

 

[Falcon67]

GFCI breakers are being installed in my 100A garage subpanel, located in the same space as the circuits it serves. Outlets in my garage are very likely to get banged-up and replacement costs for standard outlets are much less than GFCI ones.

I have $10 GFCI outlets in my shop on all the plug runs. That includes machines - drill presses, 110V compressors, welders, erc. Been there for 12 years now. I've replaced 2 over that time.

If you see a panel in a new install filled w/ twin breakers it is a sure sign of a poorly thought out panel, or cheaping out, either one is a red flag.

I call BS on that. My GE panel is an 8/16 circuit, designed for the biity breakers. You can't use all the slots in the panel UNLESS you use some of the thin or dual breakers.

 

[MrMark]

I agree with Norcal. I avoid twins in a new panel as much as possible. I've used 200 amp 30 space panels when I only needed a 100 amp sub just to get the extra spaces.

Smart. Wish I had done that a while back.

 

[Norcal]

I have $10 GFCI outlets in my shop on all the plug runs. That includes machines - drill presses, 110V compressors, welders, erc. Been there for 12 years now. I've replaced 2 over that time.


I call BS on that. My GE panel is an 8/16 circuit, designed for the biity breakers. You can't use all the slots in the panel UNLESS you use some of the thin or dual breakers.

You made my point, use a cheap undersized panel & what do you get?

 

[DURAMAT]

ACE, thats what the smart guy does! AMEN BROTHER!

Too many times Ive had to add a circuit to a panel and the cheap @$# penny pintchen contractor whimped out giving a small panel. WOO HOO, he saved how much for a couple bucks?? Yes that small panel works just fine for the current load and conditions, but now you need more. Some things you can count on in life, Death, Taxes and extra circuits.

 

[Norcal]

Here is a modest sized 100A shop panel, w/ plenty of space for the future.

 

[BioHazard]

You don't put lighting circuits on GFCI's.

I don't, but a lot of electricians do. Extremely common practice in thousands, if not millions of homes across America....

 

[DURAMAT]

Norcal that panel looks clean! My kind of work!

 

[DURAMAT]

Bio, Are we talking GFCI's or Arcfaults? ArcFaults yes

 

[rodnok1]

The outlets are the cheaper way to go, also if you breakers are half a mile from the outlets resetting a breaker gets old real quick. That being said, if the wiring is exposed to the elements anywhere use a breaker. I've used both, the outlets last a long time but do wear out eventually.

 

[mrb]

Here is a modest sized 100A shop panel, w/ plenty of space for the future.

nice. you got 480 in there?

I like the panel to the left of it with the selector switches and pilot lights. Whats it for?

 

[Norcal]

nice. you got 480 in there?

I like the panel to the left of it with the selector switches and pilot lights. Whats it for?

Panel is a 125A GE A -Series single phase panelboard w/ a 100A back fed main, the panel is only controlling shop power a 2nd panel has lighting circuits fed from it, that way the shop power can be shut off w/o affecting lighting.

The control panel is for a uncompleted lighting control for exterior wallpacks & flood lights, the selector switches are wired to function as 3-way switches controlling lighting contactors.

 

[BioHazard]

Bio, Are we talking GFCI's or Arcfaults? ArcFaults yes

Either. An electrician in a hurry or on a cheap job will usually pull power for a simple light from the nearest outlet, regardless of what kind it is....

 

[mrb]

Panel is a 125A GE A -Series single phase panelboard w/ a 100A back fed main, the panel is only controlling shop power a 2nd panel has lighting circuits fed from it, that way the shop power can be shut off w/o affecting lighting.

The control panel is for a uncompleted lighting control for exterior wallpacks & flood lights, the selector switches are wired to function as 3-way switches controlling lighting contactors.

when i made the 480 comment, i was referring to the yellow and brown wires

 

[Norcal]

when i made the 480 comment, i was referring to the yellow and brown wires

Since there is no 480V there there is no issue w/ those colors,now if there was a 480Y/277V service on the premises it would be IMO a big problem.

 

[MrMark]

I don't understand "back fed main". I don't see anything incoming on the service lugs and I don't see a main breaker setup. Can you say more about this unusual to me setup?


Is this solid TNNN you pulled thru conduit?

 

[mrb]

I don't understand "back fed main". I don't see anything incoming on the service lugs and I don't see a main breaker setup. Can you say more about this unusual to me setup?


Is this solid TNNN you pulled thru conduit?

his main is the 100 amp 2P breaker at the lower right.

 

[BioHazard]

I don't understand "back fed main". I don't see anything incoming on the service lugs and I don't see a main breaker setup. Can you say more about this unusual to me setup?

Looks like the power is coming in on the bottom. A Backfed main is just a normal circuit breaker working in reverse to power the whole panel. Kinda like if you plugged your generator into an outlet, it would "backfeed" everything else.

 

[MrMark]

Why not just use the main breaker approach then? Seems to be the same thing.

I obviously meant THHN.

 

[mrb]

Why not just use the main breaker approach then? Seems to be the same thing.

I obviously meant THHN.

this is a better way to do it, and is very common in commercial applications as well. MLO panel + 2 pole 100a branch breaker is cheaper than one with a main breaker, and you have more flexibility in panel sizes in off the shelf configurations. Note than when you have a backfed breaker supplying a panel, the breaker must be held down in the panel independent of the cover. There is a little hold down clip that is used.

 

[Norcal]

The 2-pole 100A breaker on the right is the main, since it's a bolt-on type, no main breaker hold down is required like it is for a plug-in type.(NEC art. 408.36(F) )

The 12AWG branches are a mix of solid & stranded. Everything else is stranded.

 

[MrMark]

Can you say more about why it is better? Is it just that there is more availability of main lug only panels as you mentioned?

Why is the breaker there in the first place? I am sure he has a proper breaker on the other end of that line in the main panel. Is there a code need for the breaker here because the main is in another building or is the backfed breaker here for convenience?

I like the bushings on the connectors. Very seldom do you see that.

 

[MrMark]

Is some type of identification required for the "backfed main"? Seems like there should be to avoid mishaps. How does one know which breaker is the backfeeder? Sure the wire size is a hint, but I can envision situations with multiple 2 pole breakers with big wire (like for compressors and such) where it might not be so clear? No?

 

[Norcal]

Is some type of identification required for the "backfed main"? Seems like there should be to avoid mishaps. How does one know which breaker is the backfeeder? Sure the wire size is a hint, but I can envision situations with multiple 2 pole breakers with big wire (like for compressors and such) where it might not be so clear? No?

The deadfront has a couple of "Main" stickers on it.

 

[Norcal]

Is some type of identification required for the "backfed main"? Seems like there should be to avoid mishaps. How does one know which breaker is the backfeeder? Sure the wire size is a hint, but I can envision situations with multiple 2 pole breakers with big wire (like for compressors and such) where it might not be so clear? No?

The deadfront has a couple of "Main" stickers on it.


EDIT: The bushings are required on conduits w/ 4 AWG & larger conductors, only req. on the 2" conduit, other 12 it's not req. .

 

[MrMark]

I like how you wrapped (reidentified the wires). Is it required to go the whole lenght of the exposed wire with the wrapping?

Is red required on the second phase leg? Or are two blacks OK?

Do you have a convention that is used like Black on A, Red on B?