Gfci

[mnpeterg]

Have a Klein outlet tester.
Brand new eaton gfci and afci combo breaker.

I love the tester, for some reason when I press gfci on the tester it doesn’t trip the breaker. But when I push the test button on the breaker itself it does trip.


Is this all normal? Not sure if it would even work with a gfci breaker…

 

[rlitman]

Does the test button trip other GFCI outlets? If so, I would be inclined to think something is wrong with the breaker.

 

[LopezBart]

Interrupted ground wire to outlet would do this... but the Klein should complain about that.
Measure voltage w/ a DVM between hot and ground at the outlet - should be a solid 120V.

 

[RPH]

Two different devices that trip for different reasons. Arc fault should not trip due to a ground fault. A ground fault shows a difference in the current coming in to the current going out. Any shortage is deemed a ground fault.

 

[rlitman]

Two different devices that trip for different reasons. Arc fault should not trip due to a ground fault. A ground fault shows a difference in the current coming in to the current going out. Any shortage is deemed a ground fault.

Except this is a combination device. A combination AFCI/GFCI should trip when you test with ground fault current.

 

[mnpeterg]

It is connected to only one item, an outlet. I’m getting a solid 120v.

Pressing the test on the af/gfci breaker, it does pop and remove pwr to the circuit.

The gfci button on the Klein outlet tester doesn’t cause the breaker to trip.

Could it be that these testers only cause an outlet to trip (provided it’s a gfci outlet) and not a gfci circuit breaker?

 

[LopezBart]

Could it be that these testers only cause an outlet to trip (provided it’s a gfci outlet) and not a gfci circuit breaker?

The tester cannot tell the difference; it should trip either one. Are the other lights green on the tester? Which Klein tester is this?

 

[mnpeterg]

rt250, crazy thing is ,. this is all brand new (as in today). except the tester. had power company complete the service drop today on a large shed.

 

[Gozo]

Test the tester in a bathroom outlet closest to the sink. Bathroom outlets have had to be gfci protected for at least 35-40 years.

 

[mnpeterg]

I dont get an error with the tester, it simply isn’t causing the breaker to pop. the msg on the tester screen is '>6.0.' meaning it is longer than 6 seconds for the overcurrent it’s sending to be effective. I’m hard pressed to think anything is wrong since there is literally nothing hooked into this whole system. brand new service panel, new clean wiring, just very odd since using the actual test button on the (overpriced $58) circuit breaker is working.

 

[LopezBart]

A small load (think 1 watt or so ) connected between ground and hot should trip the breaker instantly.
A breaker may trip at 4 ma leakage between hot and ground, and must trip at 6 ma leakage.

 

[RPH]

Sorry, didn’t see the combo part.

 

[justsam]

What panel and breaker is it? Is the breaker installed correctly? Coiled white wire connected to neutral buss in panel? Circuit neutral connected to breaker?

 

[walta]

Is it possible that the AFCI/GFIC breaker is a class B or C GFIC device that trips at 20 mA of current and the tester is intended for class A GFIC of 5 mA?

My GFIC tester measures 18 k Ohm when the test button is depressed. It would pass 6.1 mA at 110V or 7.1 mA at 128V.

It would be interesting to know the value of the resister in your tester.

Do you have a 5k Ohm resister around that would flow about 22 mA and see it that would trip the combo breaker?

Walta

 

[walta]

I just checked my Eaton AFCI/GFIC combo breakers do not trip with my outlet tester so they are class B GFIC.

Walta

 

[BrandonV]

Is it possible that the AFCI/GFIC breaker is a class B or C GFIC device that trips at 20 mA of current and the tester is intended for class A GFIC of 5 mA?

My GFIC tester measures 18 k Ohm when the test button is depressed. It would pass 6.1 mA at 110V or 7.1 mA at 128V.

It would be interesting to know the value of the resister in your tester.

Do you have a 5k Ohm resister around that would flow about 22 mA and see it that would trip the combo breaker?

Walta

I'd be curious as well with a photo of the breaker to look at the model number.

I would suggest if you plan on going down the route of the resistor you only connect it for a fraction of a second or the resistor is going to melt if the GFI fails to trip.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I dont get an error with the tester, it simply isn’t causing the breaker to pop. the msg on the tester screen is '>6.0.' meaning it is longer than 6 seconds for the overcurrent it’s sending to be effective. I’m hard pressed to think anything is wrong since there is literally nothing hooked into this whole system. brand new service panel, new clean wiring, just very odd since using the actual test button on the (overpriced $58) circuit breaker is working.

youre mixing things up here. a GFCI is not an OCPD- overcurrent protective device. its a ground fault protective device.

The GFCI tester should be leaking 5ma or more to the ground wire to cause the GFCI portion of the breaker to trip.

If the tester instead is trying to overload test the breaker, by pulling more current than the trip curve rating of the breaker, then perhaps its not pulling enough.

but ground fault and overcurrent are 2 entirely different things here.

 

[BrandonV]

Sounds like he might be using the Klein RT390? On the GFI test I think it will send 6 to 9mA of current over a 6 second period to record the current & time required for the GFI to trip.

Not sure why anything would be a 20 mA GFI for a typical branch circuit. Pretty sure NEC requires class A for everything these days regarding personal protection.

OP there is a 30mA button that can be used to trip a less sensitive GFI... not sure why you would have one in a home... but it's there.

 

[walta]

Update I just tested with a 5.6k resistor and it tripped my Eaton AFCI/GFIC combo breakers at 20mA and it would not trip a 6 mA.

Walta

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Update I just tested with a 5.6k resistor and it tripped my Eaton AFCI/GFIC combo breakers at 20mA and it would not trip a 6 mA.

Walta

yikes

 

[walta]

yikes

It seems the electricians that wired the house understood the limitations of my combo breakers and they only power outlets in bedrooms all the bath, kitchen and outdoor loads have a GFIC outlet and a standard breaker.

Walta

 

[Norcal]

From what I understand the only UL sanctioned test is the button on the device, so failing to trip with a test device is not a defect.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

From what I understand the only UL sanctioned test is the button on the device, so failing to trip with a test device is not a defect.

sounds like the issue is the breaker not being a Class A GFCI

 

[sparky 1971]

From what I understand the only UL sanctioned test is the button on the device, so failing to trip with a test device is not a defect.

I have actually been shown that in the UL White Book. Not that I actually cared, but it came up during a discussion about home inspectors and service calls "defective" GFCI's installed in old houses with no ground that won't trip.

 

[Jack Ryan]

As a matter of (perhaps) interest, In Australia, the UK and some other places, RCCBs/GFCIs trip at 30mA. Plug-in testers usually create a ground fault current of 35mA.

Jack

 

[wyliesdiesels]

As a matter of (perhaps) interest, In Australia, the UK and some other places, RCCBs/GFCIs trip at 30mA. Plug-in testers usually create a ground fault current of 35mA.

Jack

but the GFCIs you have there are on the main service correct? if so then its for equipment protection not person protection.

we have large services here in the US that have main disconnects with GFCI protection. the reason is these services are 480v with massive amounts of available fault current. a ground fault would be catastrophic for the building/equipment...

30ma is too much to let thru the human body and can definitely screw up the heart. hence why class A GFCIs are 5ma

 

[Jack Ryan]

but the GFCIs you have there are on the main service correct? if so then its for equipment protection not person protection.

we have large services here in the US that have main disconnects with GFCI protection. the reason is these services are 480v with massive amounts of available fault current. a ground fault would be catastrophic for the building/equipment...

30ma is too much to let thru the human body and can definitely screw up the heart. hence why class A GFCIs are 5ma

I don't think any RCDs are for the protection of equipment. These are installed for personal and perhaps fire protection.

There is, or at least was, a single RCD mounted on the CB panel following the main switch. There are now also combined CB and RCDs for each circuit - still at 30mA. AFCBs are also used.

Jack

 

[Jack Ryan]

Here is an extension cord with RCD - also 30mA

https://hpm.com.au/app/uploads/2018/05/hpm-repc-powercentre-instructions-2-4a-web.pdf

Jack

 

[dscheidt]

I don't think any RCDs are for the protection of equipment. These are installed for personal and perhaps fire protection.

fire prevention would be protection of equipment. For protecting a service, the limit has to be higher, because it's not uncommon to have a 1 mA fault current on a device, and handful of such devices would trip a 5 mA RCD/GFCI, which is annoying.

30 mA at 240V is enough to kill, so it's not really suitable for life safety. It should prevent gross shocks (like dropping the hair dryer in the bathtub, or sticking a fork into a light socket), but there are plenty of ways to have 20 mA or so of leakage, which can be fatal, and won't trip a 30 mA RCD.

 

[Jack Ryan]

fire prevention would be protection of equipment. For protecting a service, the limit has to be higher, because it's not uncommon to have a 1 mA fault current on a device, and handful of such devices would trip a 5 mA RCD/GFCI, which is annoying.

30 mA at 240V is enough to kill, so it's not really suitable for life safety. It should prevent gross shocks (like dropping the hair dryer in the bathtub, or sticking a fork into a light socket), but there are plenty of ways to have 20 mA or so of leakage, which can be fatal, and won't trip a 30 mA RCD.

So, what should I do? Recall all the wiring regs and standards?

Some excerpts from the relevant wiring regs (AS/NZS 3000):

• The use of fixed setting RCDs with a rated operating residual current not exceeding 30 mA is recognized as providing additional protection in areas where excessive earth leakage current in the event of failure of other measures of protection or carelessness by users could present a significant risk of electric shock.
• RCDs with a sensitivity of 30 mA are designed to operate before fibrillation of the heart occurs.

Lower leakage currents can be used, the maximum is 30mA. That is also the most common and is the default used in most installations.

Prevention of fire, by the way, is to protect people from building fires, not to protect the equipment.

Jack

 

[wyliesdiesels]

fire prevention would be protection of equipment. For protecting a service, the limit has to be higher, because it's not uncommon to have a 1 mA fault current on a device, and handful of such devices would trip a 5 mA RCD/GFCI, which is annoying.

30 mA at 240V is enough to kill, so it's not really suitable for life safety. It should prevent gross shocks (like dropping the hair dryer in the bathtub, or sticking a fork into a light socket), but there are plenty of ways to have 20 mA or so of leakage, which can be fatal, and won't trip a 30 mA RCD.

this would not trip a GFCI unless the drain tail on the tub was metallic and the plumbing was bonded (drain lines are typically never bonded)

as to the light socket scenario, im not sure how that would cause a ground fault since light sockets do not have a ground terminal inside the socket.

 

[Jack Ryan]

this would not trip a GFCI unless the drain tail on the tub was metallic and the plumbing was bonded (drain lines are typically never bonded)

as to the light socket scenario, im not sure how that would cause a ground fault since light sockets do not have a ground terminal inside the socket.

Dropping an unprotected (no RCD) hair dryer into the bath is not smart, but it probably won't kill you. I might if you lift the wet drier out of the water. In that case, an RCD would help.

Sticking a fork in a light socket is not a smart thing to do either, especially if standing on a damp floor or touching a bonded or grounded tap. Again, an RCD would help.

In general, RCDs, AFCIs, CBs and similar devices are there to stop people getting electric shocks, prevent buildings from catching fire and to stop people from dying in fires caused by electrical faults - not to protect the cable and the equipment.

NFPA 70​

National Electrical Code

Enforced in all 50 states, NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) is the benchmark for safe electrical design, installation, and inspection to protect people and property from electrical hazards.

Jack