To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Good high end MIG?

trackwelder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
2,608
Location
n.y
Exactly, especially full size spools. Lord help you if you let go of tension on the wire and the spool unwinds. BTDT


Say a guy had to weld up a mild steel trailer bracket, repair a stainless BBQ lid or work on his home brewing setup and then build a custom aluminum widget for his boat. All common home welder tasks. The guy with the tig would most likely be enjoying a sandwich and nap while the guy with a basic mig setup would probably still be making a wire and gas switch.

If I could do it over again I would have gone with the large AC/DC tig first. It is by far a more versatile machine. A mig is just convenient. Again just depends what exactly the specific user wants to do and how it will fit their needs.

It's quite simple don't let go off the spool while changing :dunno:

I can rip out most repair jobs faster with my mm200 and spool gun than using my Tig.

That's a fact not internet board fiction. All I have to do is change the settings and load a spool in the gun. Tig is nice for certain things but by no way will it even replace a Mig welder in most situations.
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

doojus

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
Messages
236
I have a tig and do stuff all of the time where I wish I had a mig.

Personally instead of spending $2000 on a powermig I'd get a $1500 tig and a $500 inverter based mig...
 

BigMike782

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
1,842
Location
49120
MM252 with a Q300 Centerfire Bernard gun:thumbup:.
As soon as I change the Amphenol on the end my 30A will go from the MM200 to the 252 and then I may consider getting rid of the MM200:wtf: did I real just type that?
 

debo75

Active member
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
33
Came here to post M252, and see I've been beaten to it. Several times :). How far away is your Miller dealer? Welders are like tractors, service matters.

The only thing I can add is the best way to buy one is set up an alert with "If This Then That", so when one pops up on Craigslist you get a text or an email. If it's reasonably priced, it'll go fast. If I remember correctly I gave $1700 for mine, and it was like new and came with two full bottles of gas.
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
If you wait, they can be had on Zoro's 30% coupon sales, for around $1800 brand new, shipped to your house.
 

trackwelder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
2,608
Location
n.y
MM252 with a Q300 Centerfire Bernard gun:thumbup:.
As soon as I change the Amphenol on the end my 30A will go from the MM200 to the 252 and then I may consider getting rid of the MM200:wtf: did I real just type that?

Have you been drinking :beer:
Did you state that you might get rid of your mm200? I hope you reconsider unless you want to sell it cheap to me :willy_nil
 

HotRod68Camaro

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
200
Location
Central TX
Get the 252. I currently have a 251 and had a 250 before that. With your intended use it sounds like it will fit the bill just fine.
 

crab

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
940
I have an ESAB 250 migmaster and it's a fine machine. I think when you get into the 250s they're all pretty good machines. I had a Lincoln 125 set up with gas that I sold when I got my 250, that was a mistake, on small stuff a small machine is better. That Lincoln with 023 wire was really good for sheet metal like a fender or tank. You can weld anything with a mig that you would use a tig for, you just need to have the skill. change the wire and gas for stainless and get a spool gun for aluminum.
 

dr_clyde

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
6,429
Location
Holland, MI
MM252 with a Q300 Centerfire Bernard gun:thumbup:.
As soon as I change the Amphenol on the end my 30A will go from the MM200 to the 252 and then I may consider getting rid of the MM200:wtf: did I real just type that?

The old MM200s were great welders. I feel like they had more punch than they advertised. I would take an old MM200 in decent shape over a brand new welder these days. The 200s were tanks.
 

MJD1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2014
Messages
606
Get the 252, plan on putting a decent 15-20 foot ground lead with a good brass tweco ground clamp an don't look back. As for wire changes its the easiest I have used and I have used many different machines. If you plan on doing aluminum the 30A spoolgun is the real deal, not a toy like most others.
 

zkling

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
16,939
The old MM200s were great welders. I feel like they had more punch than they advertised. I would take an old MM200 in decent shape over a brand new welder these days. The 200s were tanks.

They are equivalent to the modern 250amp class machines. One of the top machines Miller ever produced.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
For home or small shop a 252 is pretty much a Cadillac. Mig is the real workhorse. I really cant recall the last time I tig something and we make a weld every day. Not into motorsports or boats.
As was mentioned the Hobart 230 is a star too and quite a bit cheaper.
 
Last edited:
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
So I just came back from my local airgas. I got to check out (not actually use) the Miller 252 and the lincoln power mig I think 216? I forget the number.

I'll be honest though The Miller felt a little cheesy in the construction. The knobs just felt cheap in the way they turned and had a little up and down play in them. Everything on the lincoln felt tighter. Lincoln also has a better rebate going on right now but thats not really a deal maker or breaker.

The guy at the store said theyre both great and it comes down to which color you like basically. Some people like one vs the other for this or that but theres no big reason.
 

mike13u

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
616
Location
S.Florida
For me, a big plus for the MM252 is the Auto Gun Detect system. If you end up getting a spool gun for aluminum work, you can keep it attached to your cart with spool in it and the machine senses the gun you want to use when you squeeze the trigger. All you do is put a quick disconnect on your two bottles so you can switch gases. No need to do a spool change or anything else. This makes it extremely convenient to go back and forth from steel to aluminum. The dual cylinder cart Miller makes with cable rack keeps everything tidy. Its a great set-up.
I have both TIG and MIG (Dynasty200 and MM252). Wouldn't want to choose one. I suppose a nice 200A+ TIG will take care of most everything you throw at it. But, it will be Sloooooooooowwwww
 
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
On a side note, I got my first bottle of 75/25 today after flux core welding the past 7 months. Little bit different. Really the process is the same once you get it dialed in but getting it dialed in is a different story. I noticed its even more sensitive to clean metal starting, and its REALLY sensitive to wire feed speed (maybe just on my machine) in comparison to flux core. just a couple degrees on the dial made the difference between bacon sizzle or popcorn.

Could you guys give me a few pointers on firing up your MIG and shutting it down for the night in regards to gas and the regulators?

My regulator has a bar you can turn to allow more flow or less flow. I didnt really know what it was set at so I just barely cracked open the main valve on the tank and both needles pegged. I nervously turned on my MIG and let some wire roll out so I could depressurize it some. After that I got it dialed in (but it also seems to waste wire having to squeeze the trigger to keep the gas flowing and get dialed in).

Then after all was said and done for the day I wanted to depressurize the system. I closed the main valve on the tank, then turned up the valve on the regulator and squeezed the trigger to release all the gas in the line. Now everything was locked up tight and depressurized. My problem is I again wasted probably 4 feet or so of wire so I could make the gas flow. Is there a way around this?

Do you guys de-pressurize your system when you're finished using it for the day or do you leave everything as is?

Thanks
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
Just close the bottle and turn the power switch off. Keeps the gas from leaking if you have a small leak somewhere. You don't need to de-pressurize it. You do need to do like you did and set the flow rate with the gun running though. Gas flow should be around 20 CFH.
 
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
Ok cool. So basically from the regulator to the tip of the gun can have gas still pressurized as long as I close the main tank and turn off the welder
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    143.6 KB · Views: 26
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
I also was getting a lot of pop corn starts which once held a second would turn into the bacon sizzle sound so I could run my bead. Is this normal when you first start the bead? I had to lower my wire feed settings down to about 28 from the suggested 40. A little strange?

flux core seemed to be easier - perhaps more forgiving with the settings to get a good bead running.

Seemed to be getting more slag build up inside the tip of my gun compared to the flux. Am I holding it too close? If I pull away the arc kind of loses its "bacon".

Also - do you guys still have to clean your beads when doing the Gas MIG vs. flux? I know with flux I always took a wire wheel on a drill to clean up the beads after and they looked shiny and great. I thought with gas I wouldnt have to do that. Its certainly LESS dirty but to get it to shine nice it still needs to be wire wheeled in my experience so far.

thanks for the info
 
Last edited:

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
Yes. You said both needles pegged. One is bottle pressure (right or top) and the other is the flow. The bottle pressure will drop as you use gas and is a 'fuel gauge' so to speak. You typically would read psi off the red numbers for bottle pressure. You should be at 20-25 on the black numbers for flow (CFH). You can experiment with what you like. Too little flow won't give enough coverage and too much can actually **** in outside air and create just as many problems.
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
I also was getting a lot of pop corn starts which once held a second would turn into the bacon sizzle sound so I could run my bead. Is this normal when you first start the bead? I had to lower my wire feed settings down to about 28 from the suggested 40. A little strange?

I typically run my feed lower that the charts suggest. They always seem too fast to get good burn in. Clean your metal. I snip the very tip of the wire before every start.
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
Doesn't look to bad to start, the ones on the right look better. You want the flatter bead. The ones that are piled up are too cold. Up the voltage, drop the wire feed or both. If you kind of make a 'chart', cut out a bunch of coupons, say 10 fillet welds, then just weld each one adjusting one setting at a time, using the book numbers as basically your middle. Then you will get an idea how each setting affects the weld. Don't continuously weld the same practice material though, because as it gets hotter, you effectively need less heat into the weld.
 
Last edited:

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
FWIW the clean and strip discs work awesome in an angle grinder. Almost like a very worn or mild flap wheel that will prep for welding. They don't really dig in like a grinder disc or a flap wheel.
 
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
Could you show me an example? I always prep with a flap disc in an angle grinder. Lately the steel I've been getting is tough to clean - 2" angle iron from Lowes. Which is ****** me cost wise I know. I have to start getting it elsewhere
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
Gotcha. I'm in charlotte NC.

I've also been using dewalt flap discs which really dont seem to last long. I got a couple from airgas today - their house brand - we'll see how they do.
 

kazlx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
2,851
Location
Tustin, CA
I order all the time from Lehigh. There is probably better out there (the Norton seem to always be up there), but cost wise, Lehigh is great and I can get everything shipped to me in a box. Their site can be kind of a pain though.
 

dr_clyde

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
6,429
Location
Holland, MI
I don't use flap discs all that much, they're best for blending and deburring, IMO. If you want to bust mill scale, use a hard disc. If you're trying to move some metal, a 36 grit fiber disc will git-er-done.
 
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
Question -

If I grind down to clean metal, would my gas CFH setting effect how shiny and clean the weld itself looks? I believe I was set to roughly 21 but they werent as clean as I expected. A wire wheel afterwards made them nice but I figured I wouldnt need that whatsoever to get a shiny weld bead.
 

zkling

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
16,939
Yes, but hard to say without a picture. It could be from lack of shielding or more likely running to hot with surface contaminants. What color were they?
 

dr_clyde

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
6,429
Location
Holland, MI
Mig welds tend not to be shiny, mostly due to the co2 in the shielding gas and the travel speed.

As long as you're not getting porosity and pitting, you should be ok. A wire wheel will remove the small oxides on the bead and kind of polish it.
 

MoonRise

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
4,028
Location
NJ
I also was getting a lot of pop corn starts which once held a second would turn into the bacon sizzle sound so I could run my bead. Is this normal when you first start the bead? I had to lower my wire feed settings down to about 28 from the suggested 40. A little strange?

flux core seemed to be easier - perhaps more forgiving with the settings to get a good bead running.

Seemed to be getting more slag build up inside the tip of my gun compared to the flux. Am I holding it too close? If I pull away the arc kind of loses its "bacon".

Also - do you guys still have to clean your beads when doing the Gas MIG vs. flux? I know with flux I always took a wire wheel on a drill to clean up the beads after and they looked shiny and great. I thought with gas I wouldnt have to do that. Its certainly LESS dirty but to get it to shine nice it still needs to be wire wheeled in my experience so far.

thanks for the info

re: popcorn starts

Probably because you are trying to initiate the arc on top of that mill scale on the hot rolled steel. :D

Clean the mill scale off before welding.

(yes, some welding processes can 'tolerate' various amounts of non-metal. Flux/slag processes can usually tolerate the most crud. SMAW, aka stick welding, with certain electrodes can tolerate the most crud/****. Some FCAW wires can tolerate a bit of crud, GMAW aka MIG can tolerate a bit less (usually, again depending on the exact wire chemistry as an S6 wire has a bit more silicon deoxidizers in it than say an S2 wire and can usually tolerate a bit more mill scale). GTAW aka TIG can tolerate the least amount, usually almost none, of crud.)

But you ALWAYS get a better weld if you are welding on clean shiny metal. Sometimes you can get OK results with some crud on the metal (SMAW), but you always get better weld results if you are welding on clean shiny metal.

Some FCAW wires are 'easy' to set parameter-wise. Some (industrial type) FCAW wires can be very-very picky about the welding parameters (voltage and amperage/WFS and CTWD aka 'stick-out').

GMAW with solid wire is usually 'cleaner' than FCAW (because there is no real slag and smoke 'shield' to deal with). The shield in GMAW is the shield gas (clean), while the shield in FCAW is the 'smoke' from the flux core burning off.

But yes, even 'decent' GMAW weld beads usually need at least a little bit of clean up with a wire wheel (on an angle grinder). The 'power' of an angle grinder is leaps-and-bounds above what you can usually do with a 3/8" drill. Something to do with the wires (or grinding wheel or flap disk, etc) spinning at around 10,000+ rpm (typical speed of a 4-1/2" angle grinder) versus maybe around 2000 rpm for a 3/8" drill. :D

re: starting the gas flow and wire feed

When I am first setting up to do some MIG welds, I'll purge the gas lines for a few seconds to make sure I have actual shield gas. To not be wasting wire while doing that (my machines don't have an actual "purge" mode, some machines do), I either just turn down the WFS dial as low as it goes or just pop open the drive roller arm temporarily and then trigger the gun to let some gas flow (a few seconds). Depending on just how much wire came out (some with the WFS turned all the way down versus none with the drive rollers disengaged), I either just snip the wire off or just back-wind the spool a little bit. A couple of inches of wire out of the 10,000+ inches of wire on a spool is pretty much nothing. A couple of feet (2-3, not 10!!) of wire spit out from the gun means I didn't pay attention and turn the WFS down all the way or disengage the drive rollers.

re: tip distance from the weld

For 'small' wires on 'small' machines (either solid wire GMAW in short circuit transfer mode, which is all the 'small' machines can typically do, or the usual NR-211MP small diameter FCAW wire in 0.035 diameter) the 'stick out' (aka CTWD or contact tip work distance) is supposed to be about 1/2" (3/8" to 5/8" is what the spec/parameter sheets usually say). RTFM for the machine and the wire and see what you are supposed to be using for the CTWD for the wire type and size and machine.

Although GMAW beads can certainly 'benefit' from at least a quick clean-up with a wire wheel (on an angle grinder :D ), they can and should look a bit cleaner and shinier than what your beads on that angle iron looked like. Which (from one picture, over the 'Net, etc) sort of says to me that your technique and/or parameters and/or setup need some more work and practice. Halfway 'decent' GMAW beads using C25 gas could (and should) be mostly shiny with a few 'glassy' (often kind of amber looking) silicon islands here and there (from the silicon deoxidizer in the wire electrode doing its job and combining with any 'oxides' like mill scale during the weld process and turning into little glassy silicon dioxide 'islands').

That dull grey look on your beads sort of says to me that the shielding gas wasn't there long enough (the shielding gas should be a 'blanket' or gas puddle/bubble around the weld puddle and also around the still hot weld bead) or pulled in some air (and thus nitrogen and oxygen) because of gun/work piece angle or position or a draft/breeze, etc. Technique and/or set up (gas flow rate, more is not always better and in fact too high of a gas flow rate can actually pull in air via the venture effect).

Porosity in the weld bead with GMAW usually means you really have a major shielding gas issue, but the dull grey oxidized look means that shielding gas 'things' can still be improved upon, at least a little bit.
 
OP
F

Fender1325

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
1,309
Thanks MoonRise.

I always use my angle grinder to prep the metal down to shiny metal. I was still getting initial popcorn arcs before itd sizzle.

I am sometimes getting a little ball at the end of my wire between use. I clipped that off and got a bacon sizzle arc right off the bat. Is that what the burn back feature takes care of on some machines?
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom