Goodman vs Amana

[PearlWhiteGT]

My evaporator coil has a big leak in my home. System is only 9 years old but the builder never registered the system so I'm out of warranty. I basically have 3 options. It is a Grandaire system and still using R22 refrigerant.

1. Replace the coil only and recharge with R22 alternative refrigerant. ($1000-$1200)
2. Replace the air handler with Goodman, charge with R22 alternative refrigerant and replace the condenser down the road when needed and switch to 410A. ($1800-$2300)
3. Replace the entire system with a new one (goodman or Amana) with a 410A system. ($4300-$5700)

I've received 2 bids so far from recommended contractors. Both quoted me about the same price on a Goodman 3.5 ton, 14 seer system completed installed which was about $4300. Also got a quote for an Amana 3.5 ton, 16 seer system with lifetime warranty on the compressor for $5700. I do plan on keeping my house for a long time. Plans are to turn it into a rental property down the road so want something that will hopefully last a long time not like the one I have now.

What do you guys recommend? Just replace the oil only, replace the air handler or replace the whole system with the new 410A?

 

[bonneyman]

Goodman and Amana are owned by the same mother company IIRC.

I prefer to keep a R22 system if at all possible. Since your system is only 9 years old, I'd just replace the coil. My cutoff when I owned my own business was 12 years. Older than that - new system. Younger - repair.

Also not commonly known is R410a is on the way out. The "new" refrigerant is being tested in Europe right now. They estimate R-410a will be phased out 2025-2030. So, stick with R22, and if you can get another 7-8 years out of it you only have to upgrade once rather than twice.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't know what it costs today, but you can expect R-22 to sky rocket over the next couple of years as it will likely be out of production by 2020.

I can NOT find any references that R-410 will be phased out in the foreseeable future.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Goodman and Amana are owned by the same mother company IIRC.

I prefer to keep a R22 system if at all possible. Since your system is only 9 years old, I'd just replace the coil. My cutoff when I owned my own business was 12 years. Older than that - new system. Younger - repair.

Also not commonly known is R410a is on the way out. The "new" refrigerant is being tested in Europe right now. They estimate R-410a will be phased out 2025-2030. So, stick with R22, and if you can get another 7-8 years out of it you only have to upgrade once rather than twice.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I don't know what it costs today, but you can expect R-22 to sky rocket over the next couple of years as it will likely be out of production by 2020.

I can NOT find any references that R-410 will be phased out in the foreseeable future.

My sales,rep at johnstone has been talking about it for a,while now.
There are plenty of drop in replacements,for r-22 out of there.
As long as the coil/air handler is properly installed there is no need to worry about future r22 prices.

 

[Bert_]

There are plenty of drop in replacements,for r-22 out of there.

Yea, you could use propane. Pretty much a drop in and it's cheap

 

[Showkey]

They said the same thing on R12 and it's still available.

 

[Done That]

Goodman and Amana are owned by Daikin of Japan, but built on the same line in Houston. Grandaire is from the ICP side of the Carrier family tree.

I'd go cheapest solution for now. That said, Texas and Florida are the two places where payback on 16 SEER over 14 is kinda slam dunk justified. The Copeland Ultratech compressors in the 16 SEER is two stage FYI, where that 14 is single stage. Longer low stage cycles means better humidity control. That's what I had when I lived in Dallas and have now in St Louis.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

Is there really that big of a difference between 16 and 14 SEER? How do you calculate the savings between the two? My 9 year old system is only a 10 SEER if I remember correctly.

I have a contractor trying to find a replacement coil only for my unit and see how much it will be.

 

[Done That]

Google "HVAC seer savings calculator".

14 is minimum in your area now. Higher seer units usually have other features like compressor sound jackets, hi and low pressure switches for protection. Its more than just the efficiency.

Every brand pretty much offers good/better/best feature sets. I'd get educated a bit on what you are being quoted before I dropped any cash.

 

[yeldogt]

The problem you have is compatibility -- you are not going to get a matched coil for that R22 system. With a mismatch it's not going to perform to it's old level. R22 was being fazed out when you put that system in ... my 2005 system was an 410. The coil only is gamble -- don't understand why you would do a full air handler - in a few years you may be in the same compatibility trap.

Amana was bought by Goodman -- they use the name on their high end line. Goodman makes a lot of bare bones systems for the housing industry -- they also sell to anybody. Every hack puts in Goodman -- lots of bad installs vs equipment problems. The Amana line is fine -- not cutting edge .. but fine. Great warranty -- backed by the company. Most are 3rd party. Daikin bought Goodman a few years ago.

It's a shame you only got 9 years -- had you bought a 410 system back then you may have been able to just get a coil. I think you will find the two stage system much more comfortable -- they are very quiet and do much better with humidity control. The savings come with them running in low most of the time. It's not all saving with the better equipment -- it's comfort ... but in TX you will be using it a lot.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Yea, you could use propane. Pretty much a drop in and it's cheap

I was thinking nu22 or one of the other drop ins.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Here we go with the hacks and goodman again.
I know of quite a few hacks around omaha who's work I've made a lot of money fixing over the years.
One of them sells a lot of carrier spin off trash,and another is a trane wreck dealer.
Butchers are not limited by brand around here anyway.

 

[James-W]

My suggestion is to buy a whole new system and get it installed by a reputable installer. Yes, the cost will be a LOT higher, but it will last a long time and most likely will be trouble free. Trying to patch it up would likely mean you will be saddled with "nickle and dime" repairs on a regular basis, not to mention the inconvenience of having the system break down on the hottest days.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

The problem you have is compatibility -- you are not going to get a matched coil for that R22 system. With a mismatch it's not going to perform to it's old level. R22 was being fazed out when you put that system in ... my 2005 system was an 410. The coil only is gamble -- don't understand why you would do a full air handler - in a few years you may be in the same compatibility trap.

Amana was bought by Goodman -- they use the name on their high end line. Goodman makes a lot of bare bones systems for the housing industry -- they also sell to anybody. Every hack puts in Goodman -- lots of bad installs vs equipment problems. The Amana line is fine -- not cutting edge .. but fine. Great warranty -- backed by the company. Most are 3rd party. Daikin bought Goodman a few years ago.

It's a shame you only got 9 years -- had you bought a 410 system back then you may have been able to just get a coil. I think you will find the two stage system much more comfortable -- they are very quiet and do much better with humidity control. The savings come with them running in low most of the time. It's not all saving with the better equipment -- it's comfort ... but in TX you will be using it a lot.

That's my main concern is not having a matched coil for the R22 and the performance of it. Honestly the old level of performance was not that great in my opinion at times. System would run many hours before it would reach the temp I set the T-Stat at. But it would cool the house down. I didn't choose the AC system when it was bought. It was already installed in the house when I purchased it. Main reason of doing a full handler is to get the 5 year warranty on parts compared to a 1 year warranty on the coil. For just a few more $$$ I could get the new air handler.

 

[Done That]

"Matched" coil just means original OEM had to test/certify to AHRI standards and got to publish data on it. Plenty of aftermarket coils are used every year without published "match" data and work just fine. Texas is littered with these guys: Mortex in Dallas, All Style Coil, Aspen Mfg to name a few. ADP in GA is another. You can use a non-OEM brand coil and get excellent performance. ...matching an indoor coil to OD unit capacity isn't a NASA exercise. I'd add a TEV kit to one of these coils BTW.

Could be a ton of reasons the old system didn't work so well. Maybe it would be good to get a load calc done and make sure the equipment is sized right if you go the new system route.

 

[Done That]

Here we go with the hacks and goodman again.
I know of quite a few hacks around omaha who's work I've made a lot of money fixing over the years.
One of them sells a lot of carrier spin off trash,and another is a trane wreck dealer.
Butchers are not limited by brand around here anyway.

Spot on.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

"Matched" coil just means original OEM had to test/certify to AHRI standards and got to publish data on it. Plenty of aftermarket coils are used every year without published "match" data and work just fine. Texas is littered with these guys: Mortex in Dallas, All Style Coil, Aspen Mfg to name a few. ADP in GA is another. You can use a non-OEM brand coil and get excellent performance. ...matching an indoor coil to OD unit capacity isn't a NASA exercise. I'd add a TEV kit to one of these coils BTW.

Could be a ton of reasons the old system didn't work so well. Maybe it would be good to get a load calc done and make sure the equipment is sized right if you go the new system route.

Thanks. What is a TEV Kit and how would I go about getting a load calc done?

 

[Done That]

Thanks. What is a TEV Kit and how would I go about getting a load calc done?

Thermostatic Expansion Valve (TEV) is basically a variable orifice and helps the system operate efficiently by matching refrigerant flow to the evaporator load. If you don't have one you have a fixed orifice which is only truly properly sized for one operating condition, the rest of the time can be considered over or under sized. Most of the time a coil may ship with a fixed orifice that can be removed, and a TEV kit installed in it's place as an upgrade.

A good contractor should do a Manual J load calculation for you using software he has on his PC. It takes into account number of windows, insulation, building materials, direction home faces, etc to accurately determine heat loss and gain. If they just want to say "hey you have a 3 ton system today let's put in another 3 ton" then you may want to seek out another contractor.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

Just received a call from one of the contractors who had been trying to get a price on the coil only. There isn't anyone here locally who has the coil in stock and it would have to special ordered. He said it's too expensive and not worth going that route in his personal experience. Said he could replace my air handler with a Goodman 3.5 ton 14 SEER for $1900 out the door and it will have a 10 year warranty. Thought that if the whole system isn't replaced at the same time it will only qualify for a 5 tear warranty but he said he would write it in as a 10 year when he registered it and I could always replace the outside unit whenever it's needed. Or just replace the whole system now with a Goodman or Amana and be done with it.

 

[firebirdparts]

Any particular reason you are looking at these cheap brands?

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

Any particular reason you are looking at these cheap brands?

It's what has been recommended from the contractors I have spoke too. What makes them cheap?

 

[Trey T]

If retrofitting (keeping outdoor unit), I would use R407c and dump out (recover) all the mineral oil currently from the compressor and put in POE oil. Change out the liquid line drier as a normal procedure.

I recommend adding TXV to evaporator for easy efficiency improvement. Adding a TXV is like retrofitting EFI to a carburated engine.

If money is not an object, I would replace the entire system for R-410a. I believe R410a here to stay.

As for R-410a (blended w/ HFC-32 and HFC-125) phase out, the January 2017 rule did not say anything about it. I'm not sure if there are any new rule, which I highly doubt because it took EPA over 3 yrs to come up with that new rule.

 

[Stuff]

System would run many hours before it would reach the temp I set the T-Stat at. But it would cool the house down.

Most homeowners don't like it but that is actually the sign of a properly sized system. You want long run times for better efficiency and to remove the humidity. An oversized system will cool quickly but you need to set the temperature lower to compensate for the moisture that doesn't get removed.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^true and many smart thermostats now run the blower longer or intermittent even withthe compressor off.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

If retrofitting (keeping outdoor unit), I would use R407c and dump out (recover) all the mineral oil currently from the compressor and put in POE oil. Change out the liquid line drier as a normal procedure.

I recommend adding TXV to evaporator for easy efficiency improvement. Adding a TXV is like retrofitting EFI to a carburated engine.

If money is not an object, I would replace the entire system for R-410a. I believe R410a here to stay.

As for R-410a (blended w/ HFC-32 and HFC-125) phase out, the January 2017 rule did not say anything about it. I'm not sure if there are any new rule, which I highly doubt because it took EPA over 3 yrs to come up with that new rule.

The contractor who came out when my system was low shot some dye and replaced the missing 4 lbs with NU 22B. He didn't recover the R22 that was already in there. Was that not the right thing to do?

 

[brewchief]

Whoever recovers what refrigerant is left will be stuck with mixed refrigerant, last time we had to have it disposed of it was around 50$ per pound.

Any contractor that does **** like that should be shot.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

Whoever recovers what refrigerant is left will be stuck with mixed refrigerant, last time we had to have it disposed of it was around 50$ per pound.

Any contractor that does **** like that should be shot.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So it was ok to mix R22 and NU 22B in my system?

 

[Trey T]

So it was ok to mix R22 and NU 22B in my system?

I'm not a refrigerant scientist but mixing two completely different types of chemicals is just a terrible idea because the cooling characteristic will likely to change dramatically. I can't imagine anybody would do that - crazy!!!

The contractor who came out when my system was low shot some dye and replaced the missing 4 lbs with NU 22B. He didn't recover the R22 that was already in there. Was that not the right thing to do?

I'm certain that you're not suppose to do that. Some of these chemical could possibly be exempt from an EPA hazardous material listing and mixing will make it become non-exempt, because it's a new chemical now.

 

[brewchief]

So it was ok to mix R22 and NU 22B in my system?

Well the first step in converting to NU22B is to remove all the old refrigerant(that's the first step the manufacturer lists).

It may or may not work fine.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

My best friends wife brother in law owns his own HVAC company. He has a ton of really good reviews online and with the BBB. He came out yesterday and spoke with me for about an hour, really nice guy who seemed like he knew his stuff. He prefers Ruud/Rheem over the others but said he can and will install whatever the customer wants. He recommended doing the whole system if I could afford it, said it will save cost down the road if I only did the air handler and then replaced the outside unit later on. He offered to do the whole install with a Ruud 3.5 ton 16 SEER and give me an extra year of labor warranty for $6K out the door. He said he normally charges $7500 for the same set up but since I'm friends of the family and would be paying cash he would make me that deal. How does Ruud compare to Amana and Goodman?

I'd like to just replace the air handler with a Goodman for $1900 and run my outside unit till it dies but not sure if that is the smartest thing to do. I hate spending money but don't want to have to spend it twice when I could have just done it right the first time.

 

[bazar01]

I replace just the coils very often with no issues.
The new coils work for both R22 and R410A.
That means the new coils have a higher pressure rating.
The new coils also come with a Schrader valve to convert from a fixed metering to expansion valve.
It costs reasonably less.
But I have all the tools. (recovery unit, vacuum pump, etc.)

 

[Trey T]

It sounds like he's quoting you some low-end units (aka builder's grade). Don't be fooled, Rheem used to have a single line that's premium which includes safety features like low and high pressure switches, but now they have low-end units that's equivalent to other brands.

For me at this time, it's cheaper to buy Rheem system (~$200less) @ wholesale price.

I had a choice of Goodman or Rheem on a recent install for my other house and I chose Goodman, primarily because the footprint of Goodman is smaller that would fit onto my existing concrete pad.

A 3.5T 16seer Rheem is $2,500OTD wholesale. If the markup is 50%, then you're paying about $4K for the system and $2K for labor (two men average of $65/hr for 10hrs); profit for him is about $2K ($500 from labor and $1500 from unit sale).

 

[Showkey]

So at $7500 normal price he is making a killing ???????

 

[DeltaWye]

I replace just the coils very often with no issues.
The new coils work for both R22 and R410A.
That means the new coils have a higher pressure rating.
The new coils also come with a Schrader valve to convert from a fixed metering to expansion valve.
It costs reasonably less.
But I have all the tools. (recovery unit, vacuum pump, etc.)

It sounds like all his refrigerant escaped already anyhow.

I'd be looking for a replacement coil and just changing that. If the compressor dies? Sure, change the whole system. But the evap coil? I see them for sale all the time on kijiji (like craigslist, which we also have) and usually quite cheap.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Most homeowners don't like it but that is actually the sign of a properly sized system. You want long run times for better efficiency and to remove the humidity. An oversized system will cool quickly but you need to set the temperature lower to compensate for the moisture that doesn't get removed.

No system should run for hrs to satisfy a thermostat.
Slightly undersized is better than oversized though.

 

[PearlWhiteGT]

It sounds like he's quoting you some low-end units (aka builder's grade). Don't be fooled, Rheem used to have a single line that's premium which includes safety features like low and high pressure switches, but now they have low-end units that's equivalent to other brands.

For me at this time, it's cheaper to buy Rheem system (~$200less) @ wholesale price.

I had a choice of Goodman or Rheem on a recent install for my other house and I chose Goodman, primarily because the footprint of Goodman is smaller that would fit onto my existing concrete pad.

A 3.5T 16seer Rheem is $2,500OTD wholesale. If the markup is 50%, then you're paying about $4K for the system and $2K for labor (two men average of $65/hr for 10hrs); profit for him is about $2K ($500 from labor and $1500 from unit sale).

Old buddy of mine who was actually the guy who installed the system in my house and lots of the houses in my sub division for the builder while they were being built just told me he found the replacement coil but it's about $800 and would charge me $500 to install it and replace the R22 with a R22 replacement. Or he can install a Rheem 3.5 ton air handler for $1600 and if I want to do the whole system he would let me have it for $3400 out the door. It would be a 3.5 ton, 14 SEER with 10 warranty on parts.

 

[yeldogt]

There are situations where one uses a third party evaporator -- and it's fine. It still need to be fully compatible with the condenser for it to work correctly.

The older a system gets the ability to get the coils decreases -- The OP make be able to get the system to work with mismatch coil -- but it not going to perform ... especially in TX. And he was no happy with the system when it was thought to be fully operational.

There is nothing wrong with bare bones equipment. Properly sized and installed -- with proper ductwork they will run for a long time. Most systems are killed by bad ductwork.

The low ends systems = thinner metal cabinets -- few system protections -- little in the way of sound control. The use entry level parts.

All the companies maker builder grade systems -- some use partner names for the same product.

In texas you would be wise to do a load calculation. Make sure you have the correct size unit and that the ductwork is correct for what you need. It't better to have a cheap properly sized unit with correct ductwork vs a better unit with inadequate ductwork. The first example will perform better and last longer.

 

[JazzBlueRT]

I would pay the extra and go with a 24 seer IQ drive (I think they only sell them up to 20 Seer now). I did that for my house in South Florida and it was well worth it. My electric bill dropped over $100 per month from the old 12 seer unit and the separate humidity control allows you to run higher temps in the house and still stay comfortable.

And because it has an inverter compressor, there is no surge on start up making it generator friendly.

 

[JerseyHighlander]

Thermostatic Expansion Valve (TEV) is basically a variable orifice and helps the system operate efficiently by matching refrigerant flow to the evaporator load. If you don't have one you have a fixed orifice which is only truly properly sized for one operating condition, the rest of the time can be considered over or under sized. Most of the time a coil may ship with a fixed orifice that can be removed, and a TEV kit installed in it's place as an upgrade.

A good contractor should do a Manual J load calculation for you using software he has on his PC. It takes into account number of windows, insulation, building materials, direction home faces, etc to accurately determine heat loss and gain. If they just want to say "hey you have a 3 ton system today let's put in another 3 ton" then you may want to seek out another contractor.

^^^^ Some of the best advice yet here...

I've spent a large part of my life as a contractor and went into home inspection 15 years ago. I've seen thousands of different units at all ages in all conditions over the years. If I were going to air condition my dog house, I wouldn't use a Goodman unit even for that. Yes, they are a little better since being picked up by Carrier, who is also a mediocre company at best, but still the low end of the spectrum. This is exemplified by all the contractors giving you quotes for a 3.5 ton unit and still no mention at all of a load calculation to determine proper sizing. Anyone giving you a quote without doing a load calculation first is automatically a bottom end contractor. (Pay less now, keep paying more year after year, for the life of the unit) But hey, electricity is free down there right?

What you have now is a builder's special, even with a new coil or air handler, it's still going to be a builders special, with a new kickstand. You're in Texas, running the system 9 months out of the year? A new system, sized & installed right, ducting checked/insulated/sealed throughout the house, could pay for itself in a few years.

Don't know if Lennox equipment is available there but I wouldn't consider anything else for my own house.