Got my electric bill in with mini split

[bzinsky]

Thought it would informative. Had 20 mini splits in a 20 unit apartment building set on hold to 74 degrees for about 2 months. LG LS090HYV, 27 seer, 9k btu heat pump/ac. Each one was cooling a 600sq ft apartment.

From June 15-July 15th, with the mini split cooling, contractors leaving doors and windows open on occasion, and a fridge on, my average electric bill for each unit was approx $17-$18.

Philadelphia area for idea of climate, 85-95 degrees normally

 

[CNGsaves]

Is that right . . . . 27 SEER ?? Wow. That explains your low electric use.
Presume they have both heat and cool capabilities.

How much were those (unit itself . . . and installation labor)??

 

[bzinsky]

Is that right . . . . 27 SEER ?? Wow. That explains your low electric use.
Presume they have both heat and cool capabilities.

How much were those (unit itself . . . and installation labor)??

About $1200 to purchase each unit, minus $500 state rebate. I ran the linesets through interior walls and up to the roof, so my costs are going to be quite different than most.

 

[Drewstang]

We're getting ready to buy one to replace a large window heat / cool unit thats killing our electric bill each month. It was all fun and games until the $550 bill showed up. We're running a 23k BTU GE model in the 650 sq ft addition with ceiling fans and one HEPA stand alone filter unit.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Your electric bills sounds great.

 

[Spdstr280Z]

Sounds pretty good. I'm curious how you decided on 9K units. My garage is about the same size, and what I have found so far seems to indicate 13 to 15K for that size space.

Thanks,

Jason

 

[troyks]

And here I am debating between a 13 or 14 SEER to replace my old central air unit. When I get around to finishing my garage and adding HVAC I'm definitely going the mini-split route, those are amazingly efficient.

 

[DEnd]

Sounds pretty good. I'm curious how you decided on 9K units. My garage is about the same size, and what I have found so far seems to indicate 13 to 15K for that size space.

Thanks,

Jason

The amount of space doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of interior space vs. the amount of exterior wall, and the amount of heat loss/gain through those walls. Apartments tend to have a lot of interior space compared to their exterior walls.

 

[bonneyman]

That does sound pretty good. Once the humidity is removed a hi-eff unit should be able to keep the temp stable with minimal run time. Curious to hear what the bills are like in winter running the heat side. Philly gets pretty cold- wonder if the bill will jump?

Do you come in and clean the filters, or do you make the tenants do that?

 

[Spdstr280Z]

The amount of space doesn't matter. What matters is the amount of interior space vs. the amount of exterior wall, and the amount of heat loss/gain through those walls. Apartments tend to have a lot of interior space compared to their exterior walls.

Ah, makes sense, thanks !

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[pseudorealityx]

Thought it would informative. Had 20 mini splits in a 20 unit apartment building set on hold to 74 degrees for about 2 months. LG LS090HYV, 27 seer, 9k btu heat pump/ac. Each one was cooling a 600sq ft apartment.

From June 15-July 15th, with the mini split cooling, contractors leaving doors and windows open on occasion, and a fridge on, my average electric bill for each unit was approx $17-$18.

Philadelphia area for idea of climate, 85-95 degrees normally

That's pretty useless information without knowing your electricity cost, and what kind of load you actually have. It's certainly useless to compare against someone's garage.

 

[bzinsky]

That's pretty useless information without knowing your electricity cost, and what kind of load you actually have. It's certainly useless to compare against someone's garage.

well debbie downer, lets look at the data I provided and see what we can deduce.

-I included my area, should you have known that electricty rates are pretty similar throughout the country, and that a major metropolitan area would have pretty similar rates to the rest of the country, it does have some value.

-I also included my square footage just to get some idea of load, but due to the fact that I don't want to get into all the details, I did not include the rest of the information. You know my climate, and you know there are (20) 600 sq ft units, and you know there is a fridge, and apartment grade fridge, which probably costs around, say $8 a month to run, pretty easy to look that one up and see a general average. So in the end, with a total average bill of $17.5, and subtracting $8 for each fridge, you could have figured out I have a total cooling bill of $190 to keep atleast 12k sqft at a constant 74 degrees. I think it would also be safe to assume its not a perfectly insulated building covered head to toe in r40+ insulation, it's an apartment building after all.

So in short, you are wrong, it is not useless information. Not incredibly useful, but certainly not useless. Had your analytical mind been a little more analytical, you would have realized the purpose of the post and the value of the data.

 

[bzinsky]

That does sound pretty good. Once the humidity is removed a hi-eff unit should be able to keep the temp stable with minimal run time. Curious to hear what the bills are like in winter running the heat side. Philly gets pretty cold- wonder if the bill will jump?

Do you come in and clean the filters, or do you make the tenants do that?

I expect the heating bills to be more, not sure by how much.

I haven't decided on the filters yet, just started moving people in. They are pretty fragile, so not sure if I want people cleaning them, and I loathe adding a repetitive maintenance item. Filters were dirty as hell when these were running when I got this electric bill.

 

[Trey T]

OP: several ppl I've across on this board think like lawyers, so you gotta understand why they dismiss your claim.

For comparison you either specify:

1. your structure description with amount of energy used in kWh; or
2. Energy comparison of before and after of equipment change

Without those info, each person can interpret different entirely

 

[CNGsaves]

Thanks for posting OP as gives some comparable information as garage often is similar size as apartment. Agree that garage will have much more heat/cool loss from garage door, etc.

I was actually expecting much higher cost per month, and fact you're in Philly area is more impressive as doubt you've got lowest per Kw electric rate.

LG obviously is good brand and website actually touts 28 SEER . . . incredible.

I'm becoming more convinced that mini split should be considered for my garage once I get the walls all complete and better garage door.

Even if garage was twice that at $30/month for AC during hottest months, I could definitely handle that with added benefit of eliminated humidity.

 

[bzinsky]

OP: several ppl I've across on this board think like lawyers, so you gotta understand why they dismiss your claim.

For comparison you either specify:

1. your structure description with amount of energy used in kWh; or
2. Energy comparison of before and after of equipment change

Without those info, each person can interpret different entirely

Trey, I've seen him post similar not so pleasant things, I just like to mess with him as he seems like the type to smash his keyboard. A comment about how worthless my information is when I'm simply sharing it for the greater good was not necessary.

I can see it now:
Friend: "hey psuedo, you wouldn't believe what I just did, I just ran a 10.99 1/4 in my z06, first time in the 10's!"
Psuedo: "I don't care, your time has no value without knowing ambient temps, tire inflation, tire temps, elevation, valve timing, ignition timing, and a/f ratio. Here's a pen write them down, I will judge the quality of your time afterwards."

 

[pseudorealityx]

well debbie downer, lets look at the data I provided and see what we can deduce.

-I included my area, should you have known that electricty rates are pretty similar throughout the country, and that a major metropolitan area would have pretty similar rates to the rest of the country, it does have some value.

Electricity rates actually differ pretty substantially, even between metro areas.

http://www.philly.com/philly/brand/...Rates_Compare__Save_On_Your_Energy_Bills.html

Here you go.... as low as 7.59 cents for some Pennsylvania areas, and 11.45 cents across the border in NJ. Boston pays closer to 20 cents. Also, since you've got a relatively large load, you may be on a tiered system, operating on a tier where the rest of us aren't. We have no idea if your building is sub metered, or all on 1 meter.

-I also included my square footage just to get some idea of load, but due to the fact that I don't want to get into all the details, I did not include the rest of the information. You know my climate, and you know there are (20) 600 sq ft units, and you know there is a fridge, and apartment grade fridge, which probably costs around, say $8 a month to run, pretty easy to look that one up and see a general average. So in the end, with a total average bill of $17.5, and subtracting $8 for each fridge, you could have figured out I have a total cooling bill of $190 to keep atleast 12k sqft at a constant 74 degrees. I think it would also be safe to assume its not a perfectly insulated building covered head to toe in r40+ insulation, it's an apartment building after all.

Again, is the building single story? Or everyone on grade? Gas or electric hot water? Gas or electric cooking? Laundry? Wood or masonry construction? etc.

So in short, you are wrong, it is not useless information. Not incredibly useful, but certainly not useless. Had your analytical mind been a little more analytical, you would have realized the purpose of the post and the value of the data.

It's like someone saying they bought a Toyota Prius, and giving us their gas bill without giving location, use, etc. It's just not very useful. Sure it's "less". How much less? As compared to what other choices?

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I really think you could make a solid case that people would be better switching to mini splits than putting up solar panels if you wanted to conserve electricity.

I'm not a fan of subsidizing AC or solar, but considering how outrageously expensive solar is, this would seem a much better use of money with a quicker payback period.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Trey, I've seen him post similar not so pleasant things, I just like to mess with him as he seems like the type to smash his keyboard. A comment about how worthless my information is when I'm simply sharing it for the greater good was not necessary.

I can see it now:
Friend: "hey psuedo, you wouldn't believe what I just did, I just ran a 10.99 1/4 in my z06, first time in the 10's!"
Psuedo: "I don't care, your time has no value without knowing ambient temps, tire inflation, tire temps, elevation, valve timing, ignition timing, and a/f ratio. Here's a pen write them down, I will judge the quality of your time afterwards."

Cute.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Any other "comparable" unit you can compare to ?

 

[pseudorealityx]

I really think you could make a solid case that people would be better switching to mini splits than putting up solar panels if you wanted to conserve electricity.

I'm not a fan of subsidizing AC or solar, but considering how outrageously expensive solar is, this would seem a much better use of money with a quicker payback period.

Another way to think about it would how much combined gain you would by implementing both technologies. Instead of looking at solar to offset some of your bill, it may get closer to reducing it closer to, or below 0... where it's basically generating extra money for you. Hopefully battery technology continues to be pushed into something cost effective and practical.

 

[bzinsky]

Thanks for posting OP as gives some comparable information as garage often is similar size as apartment. Agree that garage will have much more heat/cool loss from garage door, etc.

I was actually expecting much higher cost per month, and fact you're in Philly area is more impressive as doubt you've got lowest per Kw electric rate.

LG obviously is good brand and website actually touts 28 SEER . . . incredible.

I'm becoming more convinced that mini split should be considered for my garage once I get the walls all complete and better garage door.

Even if garage was twice that at $30/month for AC during hottest months, I could definitely handle that with added benefit of eliminated humidity.

Well, keep in mind that there was a fridge running too, so the real cost to run the AC was about $10.

Electric rates here generally are about 17-18 cents kw/h all in, with the supply price being around 10-11 cents. It's on the cheaper side of the national average I believe.

Also, I do really like the LG units, but just an FYI, Mitsubishi, fujitsu, and gree make units comparable to this LG in performance. They were a few hundred bucks more at the time if I recall, which is why I went with LG.

Kind of amusing to think about the fact that the mini split was able to cool an entire apartment for close to the same energy it took a refrigerator to cool and insulated box that's 1/200th of the volume. Granted the fridge is much colder, but still interesting (atleast to me.)

 

[bzinsky]

Any other "comparable" unit you can compare to ?

see last post

most of the major manufactures seemed to have a higher teer of units, usually 9-12k btu's. They all were high 26-28 seer ratings. It's like there are two levels of units, the 15-20 seer invertors, and then the 26-28 seer inverters. The most important part for me, was that all the ultra high seer ones had heat pumps that operated (and pretty efficiently too) at well below 0 degrees. They must have some different class of hardware in them since there seems to be a gap between the levels of performance.

 

[bzinsky]

I really think you could make a solid case that people would be better switching to mini splits than putting up solar panels if you wanted to conserve electricity.

I'm not a fan of subsidizing AC or solar, but considering how outrageously expensive solar is, this would seem a much better use of money with a quicker payback period.

I think so to, I don't doubt a few of these units could cut most homes annual electric costs considerably, depends where you live though.

Hot climate, yeah, definitely better bang for your buck than solar.

Also something to keep in mind with solar, if you can figure it all out DIY, your payback can be pretty quick. Chinese pallet of panels, micro-invertors, and a lot of research you could probably wipe out your electric bill for $6-7k.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... The most important part for me, was that all the ultra high seer ones had heat pumps that operated (and pretty efficiently too) at well below 0 degrees. They must have some different class of hardware in them since there seems to be a gap between the levels of performance.

Yeah, some one is going to have to explain that to me !


One of the reasons that min-splits are so inexpensive to operate is there is no loss in ducting. Of course moving the conditioned air around a large space or to multiple rooms IS an issue ! Multiple air handlers solves the problem, but the cost to install jumps up a lot.

 

[Trey T]

Trey, I've seen him post similar not so pleasant things, I just like to mess with him as he seems like the type to smash his keyboard. A comment about how worthless my information is when I'm simply sharing it for the greater good was not necessary.

I can see it now:
Friend: "hey psuedo, you wouldn't believe what I just did, I just ran a 10.99 1/4 in my z06, first time in the 10's!"
Psuedo: "I don't care, your time has no value without knowing ambient temps, tire inflation, tire temps, elevation, valve timing, ignition timing, and a/f ratio. Here's a pen write them down, I will judge the quality of your time afterwards."

I'm not here to make a fuss or dispute your claim ... just trying to clarify the different levels of communication b/t different group of ppl. Some people only want to hear the big idea and not the small detail. You don't have to worry how he reply bc there are several ppl already satisfied with your info.

 

[404]

bzinsky could you remind us of where you got the units, and would you use that vendor again?

 

[dsimatt]

Yeah, some one is going to have to explain that to me !


One of the reasons that min-splits are so inexpensive to operate is there is no loss in ducting. Of course moving the conditioned air around a large space or to multiple rooms IS an issue ! Multiple air handlers solves the problem, but the cost to install jumps up a lot.

Its one of those things you really need to do your homework on and see what will work the best and most cost effective. We really only have maybe 2 months a year that need ac and that's not even a constant so our return will take longer than someone down south.

I was not a big fan on mini splits before but the more I research them the harder it is to look the other way, sure you'll be giving up some things but the benefits they bring are hard to overlook, if they can get the prices closer to ducted units it would be a no-brainer.

 

[HAP]

Where is the comparison data of older units vs ones now under same conditions?

 

[JamesW84]

And here I am debating between a 13 or 14 SEER to replace my old central air unit. When I get around to finishing my garage and adding HVAC I'm definitely going the mini-split route, those are amazingly efficient.

Just remember the efficiency goes down as btu goes up. A 9k unit will be 28 seer, but a larger one will be less.

I put a mitsubishi ge24na heat pump in myself last fall (19 seer). It is only for the living room area, but it does well in there. Ive thought about them for other rooms, but generally just use a space heater because the payback is so long on multi units with my $.06/kw elec rates....and i dont want condensers all around the house.

Mini splits are awesome in the right circumstances though. I would do one in s small area for sure.

 

[bonneyman]

I expect the heating bills to be more, not sure by how much.

I haven't decided on the filters yet, just started moving people in. They are pretty fragile, so not sure if I want people cleaning them, and I loathe adding a repetitive maintenance item. Filters were dirty as hell when these were running when I got this electric bill.

My leasing customers typically have a heck of a time getting the tenenats to change/clean the filters. I'd say that you write into the leasing agreement that your "service people" will come in and do the filters once a month, and leave notice on the counter when they leave. And just pick a day when you're slow, grab a bucket and some cleaner, and just go do the 20 some odd filters yourself. Then you'll know they get done. Filtration is so important on AC, and so often ignored or overlooked.

 

[bzinsky]

bzinsky could you remind us of where you got the units, and would you use that vendor again?

I just shopped online and a local distributor matched it.

As a recommendation, I order a lot of stuff from online vendors, and I have ordered a few parts and supplies from supplyhouse.com and was very happy. Looks like a generic online shopping site, which is generally a gamble, but everything came very fast and well packaged. Might as well be amazon for plumbing/hvac. I think it used to be pexsupply.com

 

[bzinsky]

Its one of those things you really need to do your homework on and see what will work the best and most cost effective. We really only have maybe 2 months a year that need ac and that's not even a constant so our return will take longer than someone down south.

I was not a big fan on mini splits before but the more I research them the harder it is to look the other way, sure you'll be giving up some things but the benefits they bring are hard to overlook, if they can get the prices closer to ducted units it would be a no-brainer.

Well, the caveat with mini split heat pumps, and I think why everybody is raving about them, is that until recently they were never able to be the sole form of heat for half the population of the US. Being that by design they extract heat from the outside air, it's understandable. You can't have your sole form a heat not function when it gets cold out, even if it's only a few days a year.

The newest generation of them should be able to be the sole form of heat for the lower 48, save a few of the once in a blue moon record setting lows for you northern most residents.

Here in the philadelphia region, we never dip below 0, just get very close to it. The problem was that the slightly older units (even invertor units) started to severely lose efficiency and output at those cold temps, and that's the precise time you need the highest output. So in order to maintain room temp at single digit temps, I had to either choose a larger unit that put out enough heat at 60% capacity to keep the building warm, or a smaller high end unit that was able to put out 95+% capacity at those temps, I went with the high end unit.

 

[bzinsky]

My leasing customers typically have a heck of a time getting the tenenats to change/clean the filters. I'd say that you write into the leasing agreement that your "service people" will come in and do the filters once a month, and leave notice on the counter when they leave. And just pick a day when you're slow, grab a bucket and some cleaner, and just go do the 20 some odd filters yourself. Then you'll know they get done. Filtration is so important on AC, and so often ignored or overlooked.

ehh, tenants won't like that. I'll probably do it once every 6 months, and coincide it with an apartment inspection.

 

[bzinsky]

Yeah, some one is going to have to explain that to me !


One of the reasons that min-splits are so inexpensive to operate is there is no loss in ducting. Of course moving the conditioned air around a large space or to multiple rooms IS an issue ! Multiple air handlers solves the problem, but the cost to install jumps up a lot.

just to explain what you underlined, I'm not sure what the precise reasoning is, but if you are able to track down the heat pump performance data of the units that have AC seer ratings in the high 20's, they all seem to much lower cold temperature limits.

I guess when you're really good cooling, you're just pretty much automatically really good at extracting heat from cold.

I've found that the multi head systems are a bit more complex to work on. It will be more challenging to find someone to repair and install. You'd really have to understand how the system works to be able to repair it. If I was doing a fresh install on my own house, i think I would go with multiple single head systems. Not much more expensive anyway.

 

[dsimatt]

Well, the caveat with mini split heat pumps, and I think why everybody is raving about them, is that until recently they were never able to be the sole form of heat for half the population of the US. Being that by design they extract heat from the outside air, it's understandable. You can't have your sole form a heat not function when it gets cold out, even if it's only a few days a year.

The newest generation of them should be able to be the sole form of heat for the lower 48, save a few of the once in a blue moon record setting lows for you northern most residents.

Here in the philadelphia region, we never dip below 0, just get very close to it. The problem was that the slightly older units (even invertor units) started to severely lose efficiency and output at those cold temps, and that's the precise time you need the highest output. So in order to maintain room temp at single digit temps, I had to either choose a larger unit that put out enough heat at 60% capacity to keep the building warm, or a smaller high end unit that was able to put out 95+% capacity at those temps, I went with the high end unit.

Its funny you mention that, I talked with a sales guy from one local Mitsubishi dealer and he spent more time selling the units on their heating capabilities than their cooling. I guess last fall they had a long time customer that is very stingy install a few units in his house and he used them as his main heat source and his savings was over 40%.

My house it gets a little cooler in the living room as its farthest away from the t-stat so would be nice to keep the house set cooler and run just the unit in the living room to make it more comfortable.

 

[pseudorealityx]

ehh, tenants won't like that. I'll probably do it once every 6 months, and coincide it with an apartment inspection.

Cleaning the filters on a mini-split once every 6 months that's used in an apartment setting is asking for problems... IMO.

 

[bonneyman]

Cleaning the filters on a mini-split once every 6 months that's used in an apartment setting is asking for problems... IMO.

Especially in the heat mode during winter. The high side pressure will skyrocket and cause trips of the safety switch. Then you'll be out resetting the switch and cleaning the filter and/or coil.

 

[walrus]

Especially in the heat mode during winter. The high side pressure will skyrocket and cause trips of the safety switch. Then you'll be out resetting the switch and cleaning the filter and/or coil.

Have you seen a mini split filter, they ain't much. I don't run mine 24/7/365 but I have the hairiest dog in the world and my filter doesn't get very dirty. My indoor unit is 8ft off the ground so that might make a difference.

 

[bzinsky]

Cleaning the filters on a mini-split once every 6 months that's used in an apartment setting is asking for problems... IMO.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet at 10/1 odds that the cost of implementing a monthly filter cleaning outweighs the extra cost of repairs/replacement. Could I have a middle ground, sure, but it's more difficult than it seems.

Also, apartments aren't any dirtier than a house, most renters are just normal clean people.