Grinding welds

[24X26]

I've been welding for over 30 years and can tell you that/those welds are not good.
I made better looking welds and they definitely had better penetration than that when I was 12.

I would trust my life on my welds but I wont do any welds that others lives rely on.

What is the purpose of grinding the welds you showed us? It certainly wont make them stronger.

 

[AZ Glen]

I would not own anything that looked like that but you asked a question, here is one answer:

You are going to make it worse trying to grind it.....if you are not worried about safety, just bury it in bondo and sand that down

 

[ZRX61]

Crazy, In my line of work anything that simply must be sound gets stick welded. I've seen Mig welds that looked like a million bucks that you could knock out with a chisel, a stick weld that looks half decent generally holds half decent too. Not saying Mig cant be just as strong, just its harder to tell with a simple visual inspection.

Roll cages are usually Chrome-Moly/Reynolds 531... at least the ones that ain't a pile of **** are..

 

[Brad54]

Agreed. I'm not a great weldor as I just don't do enough of it. My philosophy is if it breaks and someone could die, I don't do it. In saying that, most of my welds look better than what was posted above. Although I'm the first to admit I can make some nasty booger welds too!

This is the boat I'm in: My friends all think I'm a very good welder. The welds I've cut apart always have good penetration. I do occasionally screw up.
I won't trust any of my welding on something important like stressed front suspension components, roll cages, etc. Probably, my welding is good enough... but I'll spend the money to have someone who is unquestionably good enough.
While I'm not a great welder, I've been around more than enough shops in the last 15+ years to know the difference between good work, okay work, and ****** work.

I don't care if the OP's guy has 40 years of experience, attacking a scabbed-together roll cage with a stick welder is ****** work.


-Brad

 

[sberry]

Does anyone think the rollbar is NHRA in a fukkin 73 bronco. I agree with the op, get a 4 1/2 grinder from Walmart and scuff it up, you could run that over with a dozer and it would stay. While it looks a little messy without clean up I bet its about 98% and as good as the design allows it to be.

As a matter of fact in some cases grinding improves it probably not here but it can be called for by design.

I got to love all the comments,, Biggest reason they don't allow sticks is they would have everyone with an ac buzzer giving it a shot.

 

[Mike007]

Does anyone think the rollbar is NHRA in a fukkin 73 bronco. I agree with the op, get a 4 1/2 grinder from Walmart and scuff it up, you could run that over with a dozer and it would stay. While it looks a little messy without clean up I bet its about 98% and as good as the design allows it to be.

As a matter of fact in some cases grinding improves it probably not here but it can be called for by design.

I got to love all the comments,, Biggest reason they don't allow sticks is they would have everyone with an ac buzzer giving it a shot.

I respectfully disagree. Have you ever been in an off-road vehicle that has rolled over? I have, multiple times. To me, when a welder lays beads like that and then suggests grinding them, all his welds are suspect. And while the OP may not even take the vehicle off-road, whose to say the next owner won't? And he may do so believing he's protected by a poorly welded cage. It may seem like I'm trying to be Captain Safety or something, but after witnessing a vehicle roll multiple times in a row on the side of a mountain, you realize just how important the integrity of a cage is.

 

[sberry]

Do you really think all the worlds work is done correctly. Most professional services are 50% to get a brake installed right, you get on a Harley and don't seem to think you gonna die and this one spot in the mechanical world,,, steel of all things and probably welded rather well in the grand scheme of things compared to some things I got to wonder how they passed tech.

Millions of pounfs of steel hurtling down the road daily maintained by mechanics half better than average,,, in the grand scheme this looks rather good, I bet if I hit it a zing with a grinder you wouldn't give it a second thought as you wouldn't had it been cleaned and painted.

It does not compare to the second pic in that post below it and is probably 99% aqs strong as the tig above it. Most of the failures we see are good welds, had other issues besides the welding, anyone think the ultimate failure of this structure would be tied to a small localized pinhole in this much steel pipe?

I am a career welder, there is something to be said for quality welding but my view of it changed from 20 to 55, I am in the repair biz, have seen a lot of bird **** prove itself out. The magnification that is subjected to, lack of cleaning and a little spatter wont make a difference if you took a 8# hammer to that joint, bring a lunch and especially if its in a truck.

 

[sberry]

I saw one in a junkyard a while back, some kids took a scout or bronco no top and built a thing from used 3/4 water pipe, had mud all over it, they drove it. I called one of the Dads said,,, hey.

But this slightly modified joint in this case made with a stick and no holes in it,, I say its 10X better than it looks in a pic.

 

[sberry]

It may seem like I'm trying to be Captain Safety or something, but after witnessing a vehicle roll multiple times in a row on the side of a mountain, you realize just how important the integrity of a cage is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to be disrespectful but that's about like safety devices on a Harley and anyone figure Dale Earnhart car was built by a bunch of slackers but that a pinhole in that whole scheme would have meant a pinch of ****?

 

[CodyY]

No bueno. Start over.

Good welders can make bad fitment work. But good fitment almost guarantees good welds.

I run a fab shop as my day job. I build hotrods on the weekends. Cut it out and start over

 

[JJThrasher]

Ok a couple things here.

1. Your completely right, the welds may never matter. The OP may never roll off the side of a mountain. So lets use that logic a bit more. He may never need a spare tire on the trail, so lets get rid of those. How about a winch? Well he may never get stuck. While we're at it, lets get rid of the police and fire fighters, after all we may never need them, so what do they really matter? That isn't even logic. You shouldn't just ignore something because it may not matter, because when them time comes it may matter, and them you're screwed.

2. Just because other people have done stupid ****, doesn't mean the OP should. Hell look at Germany in the early 40s. There was a lot of people doing something, the majority of the world doesn't think its considered right just because others were doing it. Remember the old saying, if everyone else was jumping off a bridge would you do it too?

3. Motorcycles have the same spot in this conversation as as boats. A completely different topic. If you somehow want to use them to make a point you better draw a good connection.

4. As for the NHRA, you are welcome to check the Formula D rule book, or many others, you will find as a general rule your aren't allowed to grind welds on roll cages and roll bars. They want to be able to see if your welds are **** or not.

5. Some of us that are familiar with racing and roll cages would actually notice that you had taken a grinder to it.

6. Roll bars aren't a time for bird **** to prove itself.

If the OPs buddy would like to weld another piece like that, put it in a break tester, and prove us wrong we'll shut up. However, its going to fail so he might as well not waste his time.

 

[HMCFab9]

I think this has gotten wayyy too far off track.
The OP just asked what kind of grinder to use, not for everyone to criticize the weld.
Yes... the weld looks crappy...yes, it should maybe be re-done... BUT.. none of us know what exactly he plans on doing with the vehicle.
If he's going to run it 300 MPH on a drag strip, yes it should all be cut out.
If all he's doing is playing a little off-road, he's probably ok with it the way it is.
If he plans on doing any competition with it or hi-speed 'wheeling or climbing... it should be better.
Most "average guy" 4 wheeling is usually slow speed crawling & if it rolls, it's usually pretty gentle & the actual cage doesn't come into play anyway.

 

[1Garageman]

I gotta ask, is there a story that goes with that picture???? First graders learning to weld?

That is what I was wondering.
I do not see how someone with 20yrs of welding experience could do that!

 

[HAY YOU]

Use a 4” grinder to clean up the welds smooth, don't cut them out yet. You'll be able to see the condition right off the bat, if there's cracks, porosity, slag holes etc. At least you'll be able to determine your friends ability for your own sake. It'll be easier to cut the joints apart after being cleaned anyways. Since it's for your Bronco...rest assured I don't think the nhra will be kicking in your door & dragging you off to a nhra approved jail cell. Every time I did a weld job that counted whether it was multiple pass column splices on high rises, bridge girders, etc, etc. They were either x-rayed, magna-fluxed, dyed or what ever else they had to do to check them. A “bend or break text” is a low cost test of a coupon that was welded in a controlled setting, not to impressive.
Another side note if you've been a welder, occasionally or even daily for 10-20-30 years & you wouldn't trust another persons life on your weld, then your not a welder.

 

[PCO6]

... Have you ever been in an off-road vehicle that has rolled over?

I did several times back in the 70's. As far as I know every chassis/roll cage was put together using an arc welder. Our rules then sure weren't as strict as the NHRA, etc. rules are now of course. We weren't allowed to grind our welds and we had to have a 1/2" hole drilled through a non-structural pipe to "prove" what thickness we made our cages out of. That was a dumb rule. I don't recall seeing any welds like the ones on the Bronco in this thread ... we would have noticed.

... Since it's for your Bronco...rest assured I don't think the nhra will be kicking in your door & dragging you off to a nhra approved jail cell.

Now I'm curious ... are there specs for welding up an NHRA jail cell.

 

[CodyY]

Current SCCA rulebook calls for an 1/8" hole in the main hoop so you can plunge a caliper in it to prove wall thickness.

And why didnt the "buddy" have a grinder on him? Just mighta made that atrocious fitment a little better...


-World Challenge, Grand AM, IHRA, NHRA, SCORE, IMSA, NASA; Lead Mechanic/Car Chief.

 

[er3456df]

On the internet, those are literally the worst welds ever.

In real life, I bet not one person commenting in this thread could SMAW that well on a joint shaped like that. Not the process I would have chosen, but really, how good is a stick weld going to look?

God forbid you guys ever look at a 2nd gen Camaro subframe.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Roll cages are usually Chrome-Moly/Reynolds 531... at least the ones that ain't a pile of **** are..

Maybe in YOUR class of racing, but most "late model" and "factory stock" oval track class use mild steel DOM 0.080-0.090 wall.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What is the purpose of grinding the welds you showed us? It certainly wont make them stronger.

The only real reason you should grind a weld is to see if there are any pockets of oxidation inside the weld. Then you can re-weld.

 

[Zeke]

He's has been welding for 20 plus years. I trust them, I only opened the thread to find out the best thing to grind welds with were. Not for everyone to bash another mans work. By the way it was done on a stick weld miller unit if that makes a difference.

It was obvious that the welds were SMAW. Grind them out and cap them with something better like a MIG weld. Stick welding really has no place on a roll bar. That might have been how the racers did it in the 60's, but no more.

And it's true that welds should be seen in their raw form when it comes to structural welding.

 

[babzog]

The more i weld, the fewer welds i grind. Still a newbie with a mig and occasionally, my bead wanders off the line or i blow a hole or i just f something up. Grinding (mine, anyway) just ends up removing too much surrounding material. Like sanding two pieces of balsa wood glued with ca adhesive, i always seem to scallop the piece in a couple places. So, i work to weld better so i don't have to grind. Makes the job go a lot faster too! Lol

Angelfire has a great comment.

To the op: listen to the good folks here, they are a wealth of knowledge and really are thinking of your well-being. The weld is ****; cut or grind it out and do it again. Takes maybe an hour to do both? Spent more time arguing about it than it would take to fix.

Edit: I take some of that (about the weld being ****) back. I was looking at it on my phone earlier and now, all blown up on my PC, it doesn't look all THAT bad, maybe a bit funky near the top of the weld in the pic. If it were non-structural, I'd say just clean it up (wire wheel), paint it and forget it, unless you have a good reason to grind. Being that it's a cage, I dunno, I have no experience with those (take the advice of someone who knows what they're talking about). What raises my eyebrow, is, what is going on BELOW that weld.. looks like the pipes aren't aligned, or were over-ground.. or what? I can just imagine a downward force bending that to hell.. or is it just me?

 

[24X26]

Use a 4” grinder to clean up the welds smooth, don't cut them out yet. You'll be able to see the condition right off the bat, if there's cracks, porosity, slag holes etc. At least you'll be able to determine your friends ability for your own sake. It'll be easier to cut the joints apart after being cleaned anyways. Since it's for your Bronco...rest assured I don't think the nhra will be kicking in your door & dragging you off to a nhra approved jail cell. Every time I did a weld job that counted whether it was multiple pass column splices on high rises, bridge girders, etc, etc. They were either x-rayed, magna-fluxed, dyed or what ever else they had to do to check them. A “bend or break text” is a low cost test of a coupon that was welded in a controlled setting, not to impressive.
Another side note if you've been a welder, occasionally or even daily for 10-20-30 years & you wouldn't trust another persons life on your weld, then your not a welder.

I can see porosity and slag inclusions in that pic without having to do any grinding.
I don't know if your comment was aimed at me or not but I have been welding for over 30 years and the reason I will not "trust another persons life on my weld" is due to liability issues.
I don't consider myself a "welder". That's the tool I use. I consider myself a"weldor"

I would be willing to bet that you work for or own a company that has insurance and as you said, tests to check your work.

Some guy welding out of his garage does not.

If you think the pics of the OP's friends "welds" were good enough for you...

 

[Zeke]

The weldor comment is interesting. Not the most common use even if correct. Do you place or pour concrete? Is it cement or concrete? Header or lentel? Spigot or bib?

It goes on and on.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Speechless.

What he said

 

[Zeke]

What he said

Or didn't say.

 

[ZRX61]

I would be willing to bet that you work for or own a company that has insurance and as you said, tests to check your work.

Some guy welding out of his garage does not.

Don't bet on that

 

[ChevyEFI]

On the internet, those are literally the worst welds ever.

God forbid you guys ever look at a 2nd gen Camaro subframe.

Let's not get too far off topic. There are idiosyncracies in tech re: stub-frame cars which we know aren't as safe as full frame.

If we're going to use "weldor" as appropriate, we also need to go retro and use stub-frame, as Fisher Body manuals did in the 60s instead of this sub-frame ****.

Non-qualified weldor checking in, but I know it. So if it needs to steer or be safe, I take it to someone else.

 

[sberry]

I see all the pics in this thread by someone else, lets see all yours? How again is thr mig "better" than the stick? Lets get a real structural engineer in here to splain how grinding this down would weaken this.

I saw a Nascar at a show, 2 of them actually. One looked ok but the other one was nothing to write home about. Very cold weld job. I agree, have the friend weld a coupon. I like the assumption that every weld they have ever seen is ok and this is a faulty one. I am also a 30 + year welder, with a couple schools, an apprenticeship and as well as hundreds and hundreds of highly inspected critical welds in structural and pressure piping I have seen most of it, lots of backyard stuff and lots of demolition I can pretty much say for sure that aint coming apart.

I am not a race nut but been to a few tracks, got one 10 miles from me, most of it isn't anything special, a lot of it I would be hesitant about passing if I had to sign for it but they run it every week. But,,, to the op, seems every weld but yours is ok. Every one the rest of these guys do is flawless too.

 

[sberry]

As a matter of fact I am insured.

Non-qualified weldor checking in, but I know it. So if it needs to steer or be safe, I take it to someone else.

Who would this be and how would you be sure and since you are non qualified ho0w would you know?

 

[sberry]

The reality and the impression are 2 different things. This is similar to the truck tool argument,,, you will bust a knuckle with a Sears wrench so pay 20X as much for a truck brand. Or what if it breaks,, the warranty, on and on its endless.

But as for stick this one in the pic has its flaws but the point was to demonstrate that the crack could be filled with a buzz box and I put these in the position they were welded in. I have a pic of the backside somewhere too. This is a joint with no special fit.

 

[sberry]

People don't seem to give a second thought to all the factory ****, welded or otherwise they depend on every day, they race it, fly it ride it, amusement park, trucks but see one pin hole on a simple cage in an old truck on the internet and they are all experts on mechanical failure.

 

[Zebedeewesty]

I gotta ask, is there a story that goes with that picture???? First graders learning to weld?

It was a roll cage from a 10 second racecar i think.

 

[Thruxton]

The weldor comment is interesting. Not the most common use even if correct. Do you place or pour concrete? Is it cement or concrete? Header or lentel? Spigot or bib?

It goes on and on.

Actually a number of welding sites make the distinction. I have been getting educated this year.

 

[sberry]

I never did get involved in the discussion but have seen it explained. Lincoln calls them machine operators.

Ok, added a pic. Highly magnified but clamped at bench height, leaned under and overhead, 3/16 or 1/4 no bevel 6011

The second pic is a backside from one of these single pass welds. I do that so rare that the appearance is a bit ragged but if I was welding fence posts for a couple days I could get tidy and fast.

 

[sberry]

Its interesting to see or do but demolish a facility like oil patch, see some piping ripped up by a dozer or crushed, ripped up with a dozer. I have seen a quite a bit of **** hit by equipment, seen cars in a wrecking yard. I have fixed some tech issues on a couple race cars along the way but its not in my area.

I welded a **** load of dirt bike frames with 6011.

The point is that even though it may appear sensitive the pipe attatched by a bead at these wall thickness is pretty fukkin strong. Even with some room for error, that's not perfect but its not cold and like a couple of these pics,, the first of an aged one witbh 10 ga fitting stick welded in a single pass, narrow bead has not been compromised even in underground with water pressure piping in the hundred pound range.

The 6 inch in the pic were not fit perfect but seen them just crushed with equipment, the bead hang right in there.

As crude is this seems, torch cut and stick weld this tubing its dependable, never inspect it and try to be diligent about not missing and bury it. I never get a leak.

 

[sberry]

Could weld around a roll cage tube the same way and with a pinch of practice like a guy might get on a handrail job. The 6 inch above is awkward and usually gets welded in 2 positions but I will roll it if its easy and its actually a time I get a chance to run a few rods in a row.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

People don't seem to give a second thought to all the factory ****, welded or otherwise they depend on every day, they race it, fly it ride it, amusement park, trucks but see one pin hole on a simple cage in an old truck on the internet and they are all experts on mechanical failure.

I see lots of factory built that I wouldn't want my name associated with that seems to get the job done somehow in low stress situations.
I don't have access to my other computer with my fab pictures right now,but Ill see if I can find some some place for comparison.

 

[Orange65]

Anyone notice that it has been 2 pages since the OP posted? He asked a simple question and got a lesson on everything but (the first reply pretty much answered his question). That is what I love about the internet....

 

[ZRX61]

People don't seem to give a second thought to all the factory ****, welded or otherwise they depend on every day, they race it, fly it ride it, amusement park, trucks but see one pin hole on a simple cage in an old truck on the internet and they are all experts on mechanical failure.

As for factory ****, tale a look at a Corvette frame sometime. It looks like someone literally squeezed a pigeon...

Amusement rides: The ones for Magic Mtn are made right here in town & the welding is done by $7/hr Spanish speaking people. I don't go to Magic Mtn...

 

[HAY YOU]

It's a shame they only get paid $7/hr, what language do you think they weld in?