double-z
Member
bill,
this is my first post and I want to use it to tell you to KEEP ON GOING.
and use the help from this forum.
this is my first post and I want to use it to tell you to KEEP ON GOING.
and use the help from this forum.
Grunge Garage
- Thread starter bczygan
- Start date
- Status
hotsam
Well-known member
Are you going to get a real 30-yd dumpster, and if not, why?
premierplayer
Well-known member
Keep it going Bill.
Is it getting easier?
Is it getting easier?
markviii
Well-known member
"Easier" is such a subjective word. I think Bill and Julie have some momentum going, a real feel for the purpose of their continuing journey, and an "end" to envision. Each small step along the way holds its own unanticipated decisions and challenges, I'm sure. Having verbalized to family, themselves, and us what the goal is makes it even more real. Bill began putting the pressure (and accountability) on himself by going "public" with his situation. Things took a twist that he didn't anticipate. I have to commend him for stepping up to the plate and continuing with the thread. He's made great strides since starting this thread. Because he and Julie want to do the work themselves (frustrating some of the GJ world), things have to progress at their pace to make it meaningful and lasting. Making himself accountable to us is a choice Bill has made to help with his motivation. Having Julie on board is a good thing, too! They're both invested in self-improvement and can support each other in the process. They're giving each other the best Christmas and life present ever. It's all good! Keep up the good work, Bill and Julie.
Chris
Chris
Rocketdaemon
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5
i've been on the steps of becoming an hoarder. i do have an collection gene that wants me to save stuff and collect things.
but it have never gone so far as the house being cluttered in an hoarder way
but i have had tons of stuff stacked away in boxes in the basement and in my garage...
my dad has an bigger issue we have an warehouse together quite big, we could probally fit 50-80 cars in there, but most space is clutterd with my dads stuff, its in boxes and on pallets, pretty easy to move around but still...
personally i've dealt with my issue, i started to sell of tons of stuff, thrown away this and that, i used to have 30 arcade games and a couple of pinball machines, i thought i would never sell them, i sold almost everyone, sold off my pretty huge video game collection, sold off a couple of cars alot of hotrod stuff i was "saving" for an build here and there, in my head i used to have 10 cars being built... but in real life
nothing really happend, no cars got built, all money went into parts for this and that
in the end family gets hurt as to much money from the income goes to pay new stuff or pay off old stuff bought on an loan.... even when i a house i spent far to much money on stuff, i sold off most of it now but...
in the end it is only stuff, to much stuff will make no room for doing anything,
is this really what we want out of life, move around stuff that we do not really need, do we really need all tools we have... my dad got 5-6 car lifts, none is yet installed...
even if a tool or car is extra ordinary hard to find.. if we do nothing with it and it only sits and rots beneath tons of stuff, why did we even bother moving it around getting it, sure there is a tomorrow for alot of stuff, but when all stuff needed to be done is consuming all your life, and if you add together all stuff that need to be done in what time in what eon will that be accomplished...?
if you have time and room and really use alot of stuff then sure , but if space and time and money is limited do not hesitate to take your life back, be in control of your own life, do not let things controll your life...
you can fix your teeth, sell things and buy dentalcare..
but it have never gone so far as the house being cluttered in an hoarder way
but i have had tons of stuff stacked away in boxes in the basement and in my garage...
my dad has an bigger issue we have an warehouse together quite big, we could probally fit 50-80 cars in there, but most space is clutterd with my dads stuff, its in boxes and on pallets, pretty easy to move around but still...
personally i've dealt with my issue, i started to sell of tons of stuff, thrown away this and that, i used to have 30 arcade games and a couple of pinball machines, i thought i would never sell them, i sold almost everyone, sold off my pretty huge video game collection, sold off a couple of cars alot of hotrod stuff i was "saving" for an build here and there, in my head i used to have 10 cars being built... but in real life
nothing really happend, no cars got built, all money went into parts for this and that
in the end family gets hurt as to much money from the income goes to pay new stuff or pay off old stuff bought on an loan.... even when i a house i spent far to much money on stuff, i sold off most of it now but...
in the end it is only stuff, to much stuff will make no room for doing anything,
is this really what we want out of life, move around stuff that we do not really need, do we really need all tools we have... my dad got 5-6 car lifts, none is yet installed...
even if a tool or car is extra ordinary hard to find.. if we do nothing with it and it only sits and rots beneath tons of stuff, why did we even bother moving it around getting it, sure there is a tomorrow for alot of stuff, but when all stuff needed to be done is consuming all your life, and if you add together all stuff that need to be done in what time in what eon will that be accomplished...?
if you have time and room and really use alot of stuff then sure , but if space and time and money is limited do not hesitate to take your life back, be in control of your own life, do not let things controll your life...
you can fix your teeth, sell things and buy dentalcare..
A couple of answers.
No 30 yard dumpster. At the pace we are going, and even at the best pace we can manage, we can only hope to fill the 8 trash containers we have each week. The holdup is that each box of stuff must be sorted. It takes time. To throw things away without regret we must make conscious decisions on each item.
Is it getting easier......NO!....In some ways it is harder. It is easier to let things get in the way of progress. It is easier to sit and play on the computer as I am doing right now. In addition, as boxes of things make their way downstairs and out of the house, the ones to be saved are cluttering up the stair until they go out. I am not happy with that. The solution is to go out in the cold and clean out a shed. I will have to do that. I'm also really pissed at myself for jumping from room to room. I'm on the master bedroom right now. Big progress here, but I want one to be totally cleaned out! Part of the reason I haven't posted photos is that I want to show a room completely cleaned out.
Happily, I have access to all the rooms in the house with little difficulty (Gotta move a box to get into the dining room). And bare walls are appearing in the master bedroom. My dresser is full of my clothes and the floor in front of it is clear. I can walk around the bed. Bigger TV is down in the living room where it belongs. Stereo and DVD are hooked up and speakers working. Julies shoes are in the dressing room. Instead of lounging around with Julie this weekend I am going to finish the master bedroom!!! I'm about 15 boxes and 2 tables and 2 bins away from that goal. Then we will have a clean and pleasant sanctuary to retreat to after a days work, rather than living in a storage cubicle with all the stuff. I WILL post before and after photos Monday.
Even though it is not easier, I already feel pleasure here in this room. The bed is made. I can see out the windows. I can get to my clothes to dress and have storage for them. I don't disturb Julie when I get up during the night as I can walk around the bed. Soon I will have an empty chair in the corner to sit in while dressing and a place to sit and read a book. I'm looking at every item and thinking "Can I get that out of this room to make it better"? Then the question is "Is there a place for it elsewhere, or does it go out and away"? I am envisioning this room repainted with curtains and a rug and bed covers and pillows done just so. Geez....That sounds too interior decorator! Perhaps that is part of the OCD hoarding problem. If it can't be perfect you just don't do anything. Well, with every item that disappears from this room, it just keeps getting better.
Back to it!!!
PS
Rocketdaemon,
Thank you for your first post and good advice. I just made an appointment for dental work for the 5th of Jan.!
No 30 yard dumpster. At the pace we are going, and even at the best pace we can manage, we can only hope to fill the 8 trash containers we have each week. The holdup is that each box of stuff must be sorted. It takes time. To throw things away without regret we must make conscious decisions on each item.
Is it getting easier......NO!....In some ways it is harder. It is easier to let things get in the way of progress. It is easier to sit and play on the computer as I am doing right now. In addition, as boxes of things make their way downstairs and out of the house, the ones to be saved are cluttering up the stair until they go out. I am not happy with that. The solution is to go out in the cold and clean out a shed. I will have to do that. I'm also really pissed at myself for jumping from room to room. I'm on the master bedroom right now. Big progress here, but I want one to be totally cleaned out! Part of the reason I haven't posted photos is that I want to show a room completely cleaned out.
Happily, I have access to all the rooms in the house with little difficulty (Gotta move a box to get into the dining room). And bare walls are appearing in the master bedroom. My dresser is full of my clothes and the floor in front of it is clear. I can walk around the bed. Bigger TV is down in the living room where it belongs. Stereo and DVD are hooked up and speakers working. Julies shoes are in the dressing room. Instead of lounging around with Julie this weekend I am going to finish the master bedroom!!! I'm about 15 boxes and 2 tables and 2 bins away from that goal. Then we will have a clean and pleasant sanctuary to retreat to after a days work, rather than living in a storage cubicle with all the stuff. I WILL post before and after photos Monday.
Even though it is not easier, I already feel pleasure here in this room. The bed is made. I can see out the windows. I can get to my clothes to dress and have storage for them. I don't disturb Julie when I get up during the night as I can walk around the bed. Soon I will have an empty chair in the corner to sit in while dressing and a place to sit and read a book. I'm looking at every item and thinking "Can I get that out of this room to make it better"? Then the question is "Is there a place for it elsewhere, or does it go out and away"? I am envisioning this room repainted with curtains and a rug and bed covers and pillows done just so. Geez....That sounds too interior decorator! Perhaps that is part of the OCD hoarding problem. If it can't be perfect you just don't do anything. Well, with every item that disappears from this room, it just keeps getting better.
Back to it!!!
PS
Rocketdaemon,
Thank you for your first post and good advice. I just made an appointment for dental work for the 5th of Jan.!
Last edited:
hotsam
Well-known member
That's your problem. You think too much. If you haven't touched something in 2 years, it's garbage or something you can sell (for money to pay bills, not to buy more garbage). Stuff is just stuff, and if it hasn't been used it needs to go before it kills you.
Of course, this has been said in this thread eleventybillion times already.
Haven't got to the point where I can just clear a room and throw everything out wholesale. But the number of things I am willing to just throw away is growing daily. Part of it is the fact that they are ruined now anyway. Part of it is I have nowhere else to put them (Or time to deal with them).
I just cleaned the top of my dresser off after eleventybillion years of being full of ****. Covered with mouse droppings too. Then I cleaned off the top of the bookcase which had boxes of books and baskets up to the ceiling. Now I have books stacked everywhere. Time to sort and donate and discard.
Doing it!....Bye!
hotsam
Well-known member
Too much thought. Don't even look at the stuff. Just toss it away.
Ruined = dumpster
Nowhere to put = dumpster
Mouse **** = dumpster
Books you don't read = dumpster
Do not donate. It takes too long to clean and sort. Only trash or sell.
Open a window and throw stuff out. Go outside, throw the stuff in a wheelbarrow, and take to the dumpster. Repeat. Sorting and thinking does not help you. Assuming your rooms are stacked floor to ceiling and the fact that you are ~60 and not 20, it should take you no more than 5 days to clear out a room taking your time but working steadily all day. It has taken this long because you have a mental block that keeps you from doing, or you are just lazy. I haven't figured that out yet.
RangerSVT
Well-known member
Wow, interesting thread! Keep up the progress. I just found this thread today and obviously have not read through all 57 pages, but skimmed through a little here and there. Congrats for making the decision and effort to do some much needed cleaning out. Looking forward to checking back on this and seeing cleaned out pics with bare walls and floors.
I’ve been registered on this board since its very beginning. However, I’ve never posted here before. Seeing that ”Rocketdaemon” now have posted I guess its time for me as well…
There are some threads here at GJ that can serve as mind openers, and this one is one of them. The last weeks I’ve had PM-contact with Bill. I can say that I understand his problem. The reason for understanding that is that I’ve from very short distance seen the results in what hoarding can cause. And I’ve also seen the background. I wont give the details in public but it's a sad story and I’ve made up my mind not to fall into that situation myself.
However, Bill’s post gives me inspiration, to keep on cleaning out by removing things I don’t have use for, if an item no longer add value to my life it should not be a part of my life. Sorting out by giving away and throwing away. I do not want my things to own me…
For me the fundamentals of the 5S philosophy works, they are intended for manufacturing but most of it applies to a garage or home as well. These pages are worth to read and think about for anyone that wants to get things organized:
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Seiri.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Seiton.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/seiso.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Seiketsu.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Shitsuke.html
I fully understand that its real tough for Bill and Julie, hoarding is a real problem and something else than just a cluttered home. But with a good support from GJ I hope they can do it.
There are some threads here at GJ that can serve as mind openers, and this one is one of them. The last weeks I’ve had PM-contact with Bill. I can say that I understand his problem. The reason for understanding that is that I’ve from very short distance seen the results in what hoarding can cause. And I’ve also seen the background. I wont give the details in public but it's a sad story and I’ve made up my mind not to fall into that situation myself.
However, Bill’s post gives me inspiration, to keep on cleaning out by removing things I don’t have use for, if an item no longer add value to my life it should not be a part of my life. Sorting out by giving away and throwing away. I do not want my things to own me…
For me the fundamentals of the 5S philosophy works, they are intended for manufacturing but most of it applies to a garage or home as well. These pages are worth to read and think about for anyone that wants to get things organized:
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Seiri.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Seiton.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/seiso.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Seiketsu.html
http://world-class-manufacturing.com/5S/Shitsuke.html
I fully understand that its real tough for Bill and Julie, hoarding is a real problem and something else than just a cluttered home. But with a good support from GJ I hope they can do it.
That's the wonder of a public forum. There is always someone to help you cut through the ****. hotsam, you are one of those people. Thank you, I think.....!!!
Yes, I have been throwing things out the window...works great!
You are right, donate takes too long. In fact, sell takes too much time and effort right now as well. So I'm throwing away more than I want to, but still not as much as I should.
And yes, I have a mental block AND I am also LAZY! I only work in fits and starts before letting myself get distracted or take a break. Lazy is a big one, but so is the block about tossing things. I'm looking at a pile of Readers Digest condensed books and a stack of National Geographics. I'll never read them, but they are perfectly good. Can't bear to throw them in the trash. Maybe I need to make a FREE sign and stack them by the curb (I'm on a corner). For now I'll box them and get them outside.
hotsam
Well-known member
I'm not trying to be a total ****, but I've read 57 pages of this and there hasn't been much progress...
Rocketdaemon
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2006
- Messages
- 5
i haven't read every post in this thread, do not know if someone mentioned anything like this before. but.. admitting you have a problem is a big step. and you seem to do a lot of progress, it might be easy for people sitting and watching and have no experience of hoarding saying go faster go faster. in a sense i agree time is a value aspect if things take to long the risk is losing focus and not get things done at all in the end..
but just keep making progress and deciding will be easier and easier.. just look on all the space you will get to move around in.. and in the end from personal experience i haven't really regretted in selling or throwing anything away (with one exception... i had to sell my dream car.. my dream car was/is an 1941 buick convertible, i had finally got one 2 years ago, really loved that car..... but i had to sell it, a lot to do with me having some sort of hoarding issue aswell in the sense that if i had kept my wallet closed not buying stuff i didn't really truly needed i could have kept the car i had to sell it to get clear of an big tax debt and some other debt. selling my car cleared that debt right away, hate to have needed to do so but it is the thing i had to accept because i had put my self in that situation. if you want to get back on track you sometimes have to sacrifice a lot to get there. things can get worse if you don't ... and keeping things that will be ripped out of your hands because you didn't take action before hand... in your example adult protection agency could come and deem your house inhabitable. and in that case you could loose it all, so until you get things in an good order have that in the back of your head that in a sense wondering about an screwdriver is worth having or not even though its a little broken in the long run the butterfly effect so to say could make you loose everything...
i truly understand seeing value in things, and have a hard time to figure out what to do with things, but for instance you wouldn't need 4 blenders, 4 tv's get rid of the worst ones.
things have no direct value if you can't use them due to no space to use them on..
an empty garage with one project bike or car and just the right amount of tools and space to actually work on one project is better then a garage filled with tools and boxes and no space and the celing dropping in... when ever a tool is bought it should only be bought if it actually is going to be used otherwise its just "landfill" so to speak... and landfill only do one good thing, fill up space...
but just keep making progress and deciding will be easier and easier.. just look on all the space you will get to move around in.. and in the end from personal experience i haven't really regretted in selling or throwing anything away (with one exception... i had to sell my dream car.. my dream car was/is an 1941 buick convertible, i had finally got one 2 years ago, really loved that car..... but i had to sell it, a lot to do with me having some sort of hoarding issue aswell in the sense that if i had kept my wallet closed not buying stuff i didn't really truly needed i could have kept the car i had to sell it to get clear of an big tax debt and some other debt. selling my car cleared that debt right away, hate to have needed to do so but it is the thing i had to accept because i had put my self in that situation. if you want to get back on track you sometimes have to sacrifice a lot to get there. things can get worse if you don't ... and keeping things that will be ripped out of your hands because you didn't take action before hand... in your example adult protection agency could come and deem your house inhabitable. and in that case you could loose it all, so until you get things in an good order have that in the back of your head that in a sense wondering about an screwdriver is worth having or not even though its a little broken in the long run the butterfly effect so to say could make you loose everything...
i truly understand seeing value in things, and have a hard time to figure out what to do with things, but for instance you wouldn't need 4 blenders, 4 tv's get rid of the worst ones.
things have no direct value if you can't use them due to no space to use them on..
an empty garage with one project bike or car and just the right amount of tools and space to actually work on one project is better then a garage filled with tools and boxes and no space and the celing dropping in... when ever a tool is bought it should only be bought if it actually is going to be used otherwise its just "landfill" so to speak... and landfill only do one good thing, fill up space...
billblack
New member
I am merely an intermittent lurker here on GJ, but I have to throw in on this one.
You've got a tough hill to climb, but the good news is that the incline will get less severe as you get closer to the top, just keep driving for the goal.
This thread has caused me to re-assess some of my own issues. My father has developed Alzheimer's and I just went through weeks of cleaning out the family farm shop and buildings, selling or discarding things I had been saving for projects for literally decades and several tons of metal that I could have used here in Florida had there been some magical door to move it from Kansas. The cost of fuel reared it's ugly head and I found that $260 a ton isn not so bad a price.
My stuff seems sort of benign compared to what you are going through.
I'll keep reading often to draw inspiration from your progress.
YOU are on a great path to a better life. Keep on rockin'! Continued success to you and your wife!
You've got a tough hill to climb, but the good news is that the incline will get less severe as you get closer to the top, just keep driving for the goal.
This thread has caused me to re-assess some of my own issues. My father has developed Alzheimer's and I just went through weeks of cleaning out the family farm shop and buildings, selling or discarding things I had been saving for projects for literally decades and several tons of metal that I could have used here in Florida had there been some magical door to move it from Kansas. The cost of fuel reared it's ugly head and I found that $260 a ton isn not so bad a price.
My stuff seems sort of benign compared to what you are going through.
I'll keep reading often to draw inspiration from your progress.
YOU are on a great path to a better life. Keep on rockin'! Continued success to you and your wife!
Before anyone hammers me for this, yes, I read all 57 pages. If you do read this, please read the whole thing.
We all know what opinions are like but here is mine. I, like some others, am going to be brutally honest with my feelings on it.
This thread has turned into nothing but a crutch for Bill and a source of frustration to everyone else. If you read the whole thing you can see that Bill has been upfront (mostly) about his problem. He has been offered an extraordinary amount of help that he has declined for his own reasons, whatever they are. People who don't even know him have offered both their moral and physical support, and some of them have reached a boiling point of frustration that has caused them to be sick to their stomachs. Others may have been inspired to make changes in their own lives, and with that in mind it may have helped some people. What I think it has done for Bill is given him an out, and a way to avoid helping himself. It has become a security blanket for him to reach for in this process. Yes, it is hard to interpret it that way because there have been some posts which were harsh, and some which have been downright mean.
BUT...as long as members continue to come back to it with words of encouragement or with words of shame, he has an out. When Bill has a day in which he doesn't get anything done, or goes and buys something, or says he filled 8 dumpsters which were really garbage cans, he knows he can come here. He knows that he will get abuse from some, and encouragement from some. There are excuses. There are claims of attitude changes. There are claims of self-help. There are Bill's words of thanks both to those who cheer him on and also to those who berate him. In other words, he likes the abuse for reasons of his own. Most of all, what has been created with this thread is a comfort zone. Bill knows that he can stay on the current heading, and nothing will change with respect to people's reaction to his situation. If nothing changes then nothing gets worse.
Bill, it's evident by reading your posts that you are not an idiot. You are well-spoken, articulate, and you seem to grasp the problems in front of you. It's also evident (at least in my opinion) that you have very serious mental problems. I mean that with absolutely no disrespect. I, for one, would not have the gumption to come here and do what you did. In light of that, though, I think it's time to cut the cord from this thing and swim or drown. Enough with what gets brought across as progress, Bill. Please hear me out to the end.
Here is what I think you already know:
1. You have a problem that you cannot control.
2. You are completely unwilling to let anyone help you out. I don't know if this is because you get comfort from the attention, or because you know that if your problems were fixed you wouldn't get a reaction from people anymore.
3. You are still, after all of this thread, in denial that anything is wrong and that disaster is on the way. You might tell me that you know you have a problem and want to fix it, but after reading about sewage in your basement, health problems caused by mold, etc. etc. etc., I don't believe it. I'm sorry, Bill. When you tell us that you moved some paint cans and threw away some clothes and made positive steps, all the while continuing to live in a house full of raw sewage, mold, and rats, that tells me that you want someone to come to Garagejournal and say "Go Bill!!!" and also someone to tell you "Get your **** together, Bill!!!" You like the intangible thing that this thread gives you to hang on to. That way you know things can continue because tomorrow you can wake up, show all of us the shelf of stuff you moved from one corner to another, and get attention from people.
Bill, you have a problem that none of us here can help you with. Your wife can't help you with it. You can't help yourself. Here is what is going to happen to you Bill, if you don't get outside help to deal with this:
You are not going to die of hypothermia, you will not starve, you will not suffocate. Eventually things are going to get to the point where state officials step in and take you out of there. Your house will get condemned, and you will either end up in an institution, or worse yet, in another house or apartment starting this whole thing over again. As much as you want to think something dramatic will happen, it will not. It will only be sad, not dramatic. I don't want to see that happen but it will. All it would take would be for you to go to a church or someone in your community, and from there get the ball rolling back to a healthy existence. But you won't or can't do it on your own. And please don't think that I am totally removed from this and have never experience the pain of someone not being able to control themselves. My mother was the greatest person I ever met and I loved her more than anything on Earth. She had asthma, COPD, and a host of other things caused by smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 40 years. I watched her shrivel away to nothing at 57 years old because she couldn't quit. She was on oxygen and smoked. She couldn't pay for groceries but she still bought cigarettes. When she was to weak to live on her own she smoked in hospital bathrooms. She had burns on her arms and clothes from passing out while she was smoking. Never quit and finally it killed her. That was the same kind of "no control."
I know this has been long winded but here is my suggestion first in general and secondly to Bill: This thread should get locked. It is just a public spectacle and a place for people to come gawk about how crazy this is. Bill feeds off of that and has an audience that he doesn't need. Since I know that won't get locked, then Bill, I challenge you to do this: Leave the board (this thread) for 365 days, and come back to us in a year if you have fixed things. You have heard a thousand times that you need outside help and you know you do. You are beyond baby steps doing any good. If you want to get better then prove it to the people who have gone out of their way to help you. You owe it to them. They don't need to hear anymore of your stuff, and you aren't getting any good out of it. You can't honestly expect any of us to believe that eventually you are going to have your house repaired. It has to be bulldozed and you know it. You need intensive counseling and a new place to live where your environment can be more controlled. My challenge is for you to step away, fix yourself (not your house, Bill, we're way past that) and come back here later to show us that you and your wife have gotten help and made your lives manageable. Don't make another post saying how you know I'm right, how you are going to change your attitude, or you're going to make a new checklist with a due date. Turn the damn computer off, drive to the nearest clinic, and tell them what you're telling us. The only thing you're doing with this thread is giving a few sick people pleasure out of watching you nose dive your life into the ground. We can't help you, Bill. We are sitting at computers across the country with our own lives and can't even come close to giving you the help you need. There are people there who will. They will get you to a safe place to live, work something out with your house (whatever that may be), and help you fix yourself. If you want to keep living this way, that's your choice too. I honestly hope not.
Sorry for the post.
We all know what opinions are like but here is mine. I, like some others, am going to be brutally honest with my feelings on it.
This thread has turned into nothing but a crutch for Bill and a source of frustration to everyone else. If you read the whole thing you can see that Bill has been upfront (mostly) about his problem. He has been offered an extraordinary amount of help that he has declined for his own reasons, whatever they are. People who don't even know him have offered both their moral and physical support, and some of them have reached a boiling point of frustration that has caused them to be sick to their stomachs. Others may have been inspired to make changes in their own lives, and with that in mind it may have helped some people. What I think it has done for Bill is given him an out, and a way to avoid helping himself. It has become a security blanket for him to reach for in this process. Yes, it is hard to interpret it that way because there have been some posts which were harsh, and some which have been downright mean.
BUT...as long as members continue to come back to it with words of encouragement or with words of shame, he has an out. When Bill has a day in which he doesn't get anything done, or goes and buys something, or says he filled 8 dumpsters which were really garbage cans, he knows he can come here. He knows that he will get abuse from some, and encouragement from some. There are excuses. There are claims of attitude changes. There are claims of self-help. There are Bill's words of thanks both to those who cheer him on and also to those who berate him. In other words, he likes the abuse for reasons of his own. Most of all, what has been created with this thread is a comfort zone. Bill knows that he can stay on the current heading, and nothing will change with respect to people's reaction to his situation. If nothing changes then nothing gets worse.
Bill, it's evident by reading your posts that you are not an idiot. You are well-spoken, articulate, and you seem to grasp the problems in front of you. It's also evident (at least in my opinion) that you have very serious mental problems. I mean that with absolutely no disrespect. I, for one, would not have the gumption to come here and do what you did. In light of that, though, I think it's time to cut the cord from this thing and swim or drown. Enough with what gets brought across as progress, Bill. Please hear me out to the end.
Here is what I think you already know:
1. You have a problem that you cannot control.
2. You are completely unwilling to let anyone help you out. I don't know if this is because you get comfort from the attention, or because you know that if your problems were fixed you wouldn't get a reaction from people anymore.
3. You are still, after all of this thread, in denial that anything is wrong and that disaster is on the way. You might tell me that you know you have a problem and want to fix it, but after reading about sewage in your basement, health problems caused by mold, etc. etc. etc., I don't believe it. I'm sorry, Bill. When you tell us that you moved some paint cans and threw away some clothes and made positive steps, all the while continuing to live in a house full of raw sewage, mold, and rats, that tells me that you want someone to come to Garagejournal and say "Go Bill!!!" and also someone to tell you "Get your **** together, Bill!!!" You like the intangible thing that this thread gives you to hang on to. That way you know things can continue because tomorrow you can wake up, show all of us the shelf of stuff you moved from one corner to another, and get attention from people.
Bill, you have a problem that none of us here can help you with. Your wife can't help you with it. You can't help yourself. Here is what is going to happen to you Bill, if you don't get outside help to deal with this:
You are not going to die of hypothermia, you will not starve, you will not suffocate. Eventually things are going to get to the point where state officials step in and take you out of there. Your house will get condemned, and you will either end up in an institution, or worse yet, in another house or apartment starting this whole thing over again. As much as you want to think something dramatic will happen, it will not. It will only be sad, not dramatic. I don't want to see that happen but it will. All it would take would be for you to go to a church or someone in your community, and from there get the ball rolling back to a healthy existence. But you won't or can't do it on your own. And please don't think that I am totally removed from this and have never experience the pain of someone not being able to control themselves. My mother was the greatest person I ever met and I loved her more than anything on Earth. She had asthma, COPD, and a host of other things caused by smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 40 years. I watched her shrivel away to nothing at 57 years old because she couldn't quit. She was on oxygen and smoked. She couldn't pay for groceries but she still bought cigarettes. When she was to weak to live on her own she smoked in hospital bathrooms. She had burns on her arms and clothes from passing out while she was smoking. Never quit and finally it killed her. That was the same kind of "no control."
I know this has been long winded but here is my suggestion first in general and secondly to Bill: This thread should get locked. It is just a public spectacle and a place for people to come gawk about how crazy this is. Bill feeds off of that and has an audience that he doesn't need. Since I know that won't get locked, then Bill, I challenge you to do this: Leave the board (this thread) for 365 days, and come back to us in a year if you have fixed things. You have heard a thousand times that you need outside help and you know you do. You are beyond baby steps doing any good. If you want to get better then prove it to the people who have gone out of their way to help you. You owe it to them. They don't need to hear anymore of your stuff, and you aren't getting any good out of it. You can't honestly expect any of us to believe that eventually you are going to have your house repaired. It has to be bulldozed and you know it. You need intensive counseling and a new place to live where your environment can be more controlled. My challenge is for you to step away, fix yourself (not your house, Bill, we're way past that) and come back here later to show us that you and your wife have gotten help and made your lives manageable. Don't make another post saying how you know I'm right, how you are going to change your attitude, or you're going to make a new checklist with a due date. Turn the damn computer off, drive to the nearest clinic, and tell them what you're telling us. The only thing you're doing with this thread is giving a few sick people pleasure out of watching you nose dive your life into the ground. We can't help you, Bill. We are sitting at computers across the country with our own lives and can't even come close to giving you the help you need. There are people there who will. They will get you to a safe place to live, work something out with your house (whatever that may be), and help you fix yourself. If you want to keep living this way, that's your choice too. I honestly hope not.
Sorry for the post.
billblack
New member
Kv...I read your post and then went back and re-read most of the entire 57 pages. I believe you are right about what it will take for Bill to make a substantial change. I also believe that a number of people have been motivated by reading these 1139 posts to look at their own situations in a different light and perhaps make positive changes. That's a good thing.
My house is very neat and clean, thanks to a wonderful women, but yes I was motivated to make some changes in my shop
P.S
Bill dont let the stairs get cluttered again, it's a slippery slope.
jeffmoss26
Well-known member
Kv, exceptionally well said.
BlueSuedeShoe
Member
That's exactly what I think!
Professionals can't miraculously cure people like Bill either. They help their patients take small steps. That's what Bill and Julie do for themselves.
At times the doctors prescribe pills that often bring along other problems...
But I know: I'm nothing if not redundant! I also repeat myself...
I can appreciate your sentiment, but judging by the pictures and first hand accounts of people who have been there, small steps will literally take years.
He has dried up human ***** matter and urine 2 feet up the walls in the basement. Rat feces and urine all over the house and its contents. Mold has permeated the house to the point that it made a previous poster ill when he visited (as well as the OP). If you live in an industrialized country and choose to continue doing what the OP is doing, you are not mentally stable, I'm sorry. I never made mention to a doctor, either. I mentioned counseling and being removed from a house that would be condemned if human services saw it. The OP also stated in a previous post that a licensed waste clean up professional came to his home, and stated that the only way it would be safe to enter the home would be with full hazardous waste suits taped at the seams, and respirators.
This is not a guy who has a cluttered house. It is a man who, while very intelligent and aware, has some hellacious psychological problems. Like other posters, I am going to back out of this and watch from the sidelines. I stand by my earlier post from yesterday, and I hope someone in his community can make it apparent to him that this isn't something that can continue.
All that stuff aside, one thing I can say is this is by FAR the strangest goddamn thing I have ever had the chance to come across on an internet forum.
Need4racin
Banned
Isn't it odd Bill has internet, yet he doesn't have heat, water, or sewerage? Hell I bet hes posting from his smart phone while watching tv.
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mdbeck1
Well-known member
In the past he has noted that he uses the cell phone as a modem (I think they call it "tethering") for his computer.
Actually at the expense of getting "flamed" I've noticed a shift in his writing since he started this thread. At first he was just "straightening" and throwing out "trash". He then started "donating". His latest transition has been to just "throwing things away". True that he only "throws things away" that are ruined but he is telling us that he is making progress.
I don't know if that makes me an "enabler" or just someone that is watching. However I've been watching for a while and there is an interesting shift. I can only hope the best for him.
Exactly
Yes, it is odd. Also that during the last 3 years, instead of spending money on fixing the furnace and water heater, trailers and tools were bought, vacations taken, etc. Priorities are upside down. It has always bothered me, but not enough to do something about it. Now I can't stand it anymore.
Monday photos of the master bedroom.
Let me fix that.......
Monday photos of the master bedroom and the stairs.
They were clean and still should be! Right?
Just holding you to your word Bill. Not trying to be an ***.
On a side note... Three people that joined in 06 and their first post is here in the last week. This thread has a way of drawing people out.
And kv, darn good post there. #1138
Taking a little break.
Adding the stairway to the equation means very late on Monday for photos!!!
Here are photos as the Master Bedroom was. In fact, it was much worse in the beginning. One small area on one side of the bed to stand up in. All the rest stacked high. No access to dressers. No way around the bed. Climb over stuff. No way to find clothes.
Now it is much better. Photos show stage one with access to dressers improved.
Adding the stairway to the equation means very late on Monday for photos!!!
Here are photos as the Master Bedroom was. In fact, it was much worse in the beginning. One small area on one side of the bed to stand up in. All the rest stacked high. No access to dressers. No way around the bed. Climb over stuff. No way to find clothes.
Now it is much better. Photos show stage one with access to dressers improved.
Attachments
welder4956
Well-known member
Bill,
You can feel comfortable tossing out those National Geographics, or any other magazines. Magazines are intended to be tossed out when finished. If there is any chance they are contaminated, you would be better off to toss them rather than risk someone getting sick.
Just toss them in the recycled paper.
You can feel comfortable tossing out those National Geographics, or any other magazines. Magazines are intended to be tossed out when finished. If there is any chance they are contaminated, you would be better off to toss them rather than risk someone getting sick.
Just toss them in the recycled paper.
markviii
Well-known member
Discarding magazines (esp. Nat'l Geog. and Smithsonian) is especially difficult because of all those pretty pictures. Keep in mind that even libraries, school art departments, jails and doctors' offices won't take them anymore where I live. Please recycle them. You can always see them on the internet if you really want to go to the trouble. It'll free up lots of space. Also, if you have loads of newspaper piled up, get rid of it. Many churches around me have "newspaper only" recycling bins (using it for a fundraiser?). Every time I clean out an elderly person's home or apartment, much of the clutter is piled up newspaper, magazines and junk mail. Many of those same people have rented storage unit(s) for any overflow - the contents include more magazines and newspapers saved with one article circled (usually an obituary). Also there is assorted "furniture": one or three chairs in varying states of disrepair from some old dining table (never 2 or 4), small appliances or lamps with a broken cord or switch, all sorts of nicknacks with or without chips, uncleaned oriental area rugs, etc. We end up throwing it all away. There is no market for any of this stuff - if any is usable, the people who "dumpster dive" will find it. This saves us HUGE amounts of time sorting and trying to make decisions about discarding/distributing. It's easy to fall into that trap, as you've so aptly demonstrated.
Can't wait to see the progress pictures.
Chris
Can't wait to see the progress pictures.
Chris
Need4racin
Banned
eat the rest of the pringles and throw them away. You're hoarding junk.
motivation=success
motivation=success
Red Leader
Well-known member
Bill,
Thanks for the before/after pictures.
I think to a lot of folks, your 'after' pictures aren't representative of the work you've done. To probably a lot of people, they just look like pictures of a messy, cluttered living space. Some 'before' pictures showing what it was really like would probably help put it into perspective.
It is not a reflection of your hard work, but I think when people think 'before' and 'after', there is an expected transition from 'messy' to 'clean'. In your case, reality is probably more 'uninhabitable' to 'messy' - it is not a criticism, but I encourage you to finish off the deal. Many of us are waiting for that one picture of an actual clean room.
Also this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by custom1 View Post
Let me fix that.......
Monday photos of the master bedroom and the stairs.
They were clean and still should be! Right?
Bill: Awwwww Mannnnnn.........!!!
Just holding you to your word Bill. Not trying to be an ***.
On a side note... Three people that joined in 06 and their first post is here in the last week. This thread has a way of drawing people out.
And kv, darn good post there. #1138
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I misunderstanding? I sincerely hope that was a joke. I hope that you were not just relocating stuff from the bedroom back onto the stairs.
If that is what you really were doing...........
Please tell us you were not doing that.
Thanks for the before/after pictures.
I think to a lot of folks, your 'after' pictures aren't representative of the work you've done. To probably a lot of people, they just look like pictures of a messy, cluttered living space. Some 'before' pictures showing what it was really like would probably help put it into perspective.
It is not a reflection of your hard work, but I think when people think 'before' and 'after', there is an expected transition from 'messy' to 'clean'. In your case, reality is probably more 'uninhabitable' to 'messy' - it is not a criticism, but I encourage you to finish off the deal. Many of us are waiting for that one picture of an actual clean room.
Also this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by custom1 View Post
Let me fix that.......
Monday photos of the master bedroom and the stairs.
They were clean and still should be! Right?
Bill: Awwwww Mannnnnn.........!!!
Just holding you to your word Bill. Not trying to be an ***.
On a side note... Three people that joined in 06 and their first post is here in the last week. This thread has a way of drawing people out.
And kv, darn good post there. #1138
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I misunderstanding? I sincerely hope that was a joke. I hope that you were not just relocating stuff from the bedroom back onto the stairs.
If that is what you really were doing...........
Please tell us you were not doing that.
Bill,
Keep in mind that almost _everything_ in print that you have can be reclaimed simply by using a search engine online. If you feel you need a "copy" then save your findings on a pc or mobile device.
Thus, no need to fear losing the pictures or articles of mags/books/newspapers/etc...
Maybe perspective can help be the catalyst to overcoming the block of mass recycling 'paper products'.
Best Regards,
-C
Keep in mind that almost _everything_ in print that you have can be reclaimed simply by using a search engine online. If you feel you need a "copy" then save your findings on a pc or mobile device.
Thus, no need to fear losing the pictures or articles of mags/books/newspapers/etc...
Maybe perspective can help be the catalyst to overcoming the block of mass recycling 'paper products'.
Best Regards,
-C
Just a moment to say where I'm at. Working on piles of drek on the floor of the M bedroom. Uncovered the wing chair. Taking boxes of books out. Getting access to all the floor and carpets so I can vacuum. Still need to move a couple tables out for disposal as well as buckets of bird food, old printers and electronic components, bags of power cords and cables, old pillows, extra bedding etc.
Bill: The stairs are the conduit to outside and the trash. They are also a psychological conduit for me. Things on the stairs have less value and are literally and figuratively being kicked down the stairs and outside. Some bags of clothes will go to the laundry, but most other stuff will go in the trash. It also gives me room to operate and a quick jump start on cleaning out the room I am working on. It gives Julie a chance to see the room WITHOUT those items and come to terms with the fact they are leaving. So it will take another few hours to clear the stairs after the room is finished. Nothing is coming back up the stairs and they will soon be clean again waiting for another load to disgorge into space.
And you are right, the photos above are midpoint photos of the master bedroom. My "clean" is most peoples habitable. There will still be several more sessions of improvements for each room to undergo including painting, floor refinishing, new curtains or drapes, bedding etc. And even after all the furniture I have discarded, some additional items will have to be rehomed. I am walking around the M bedroom right now, enjoying the feeling of not having to watch where my feet go to avoid stepping on things. The room is starting to feel expansive! I was actually able to walk over to a window, and upon seeing someone looking into the window of my van, I was able to rap on the window and then make my way rapidly outside to confront them!
It IS hard to throw away National Geographics and the like. But you are right, I am finding all the content I desire online. And I have a set of most all the NG's printed on CD's.
Bill,
Thanks for the before/after pictures.
I think to a lot of folks, your 'after' pictures aren't representative of the work you've done. To probably a lot of people, they just look like pictures of a messy, cluttered living space. Some 'before' pictures showing what it was really like would probably help put it into perspective.
It is not a reflection of your hard work, but I think when people think 'before' and 'after', there is an expected transition from 'messy' to 'clean'. In your case, reality is probably more 'uninhabitable' to 'messy' - it is not a criticism, but I encourage you to finish off the deal. Many of us are waiting for that one picture of an actual clean room.
Also this:
Monday photos of the master bedroom and the stairs.
They were clean and still should be! Right?
Bill: Awwwww Mannnnnn.........!!!
Am I misunderstanding? I sincerely hope that was a joke. I hope that you were not just relocating stuff from the bedroom back onto the stairs.
If that is what you really were doing...........
Please tell us you were not doing that.
Bill: The stairs are the conduit to outside and the trash. They are also a psychological conduit for me. Things on the stairs have less value and are literally and figuratively being kicked down the stairs and outside. Some bags of clothes will go to the laundry, but most other stuff will go in the trash. It also gives me room to operate and a quick jump start on cleaning out the room I am working on. It gives Julie a chance to see the room WITHOUT those items and come to terms with the fact they are leaving. So it will take another few hours to clear the stairs after the room is finished. Nothing is coming back up the stairs and they will soon be clean again waiting for another load to disgorge into space.
And you are right, the photos above are midpoint photos of the master bedroom. My "clean" is most peoples habitable. There will still be several more sessions of improvements for each room to undergo including painting, floor refinishing, new curtains or drapes, bedding etc. And even after all the furniture I have discarded, some additional items will have to be rehomed. I am walking around the M bedroom right now, enjoying the feeling of not having to watch where my feet go to avoid stepping on things. The room is starting to feel expansive! I was actually able to walk over to a window, and upon seeing someone looking into the window of my van, I was able to rap on the window and then make my way rapidly outside to confront them!
It IS hard to throw away National Geographics and the like. But you are right, I am finding all the content I desire online. And I have a set of most all the NG's printed on CD's.
Rich H.
Well-known member
Wait a second.
There is no heat....but is there a working fireplace?
All the unused/contaminated clothing, the old magazines, newspapers, cardboard boxes and so on could provide you with a little heat and could put on a good smoke show for the neighbors.
That and a few chunks of saved lumber for the project that will never happen could give you one heck of a fire.
Maybe just burn stuff instead of throwing it away?
There is no heat....but is there a working fireplace?
All the unused/contaminated clothing, the old magazines, newspapers, cardboard boxes and so on could provide you with a little heat and could put on a good smoke show for the neighbors.
That and a few chunks of saved lumber for the project that will never happen could give you one heck of a fire.
Maybe just burn stuff instead of throwing it away?
- Status