Had a close call with my well pump today !

[Arky217]

Didn't see a plumbing section, but since some have their pump or pressure tank in the garage, I thought this warning might be appropiate.

You know how that when a pump stops, there is usually quite an arc
across the contacts of the pressure switch. After an extended time
of arcing, switch contacts have been known to weld shut, thus not
allowing the pump to stop when the cutoff pressure is reached.

Well, a couple of months ago I was researching about putting an R/C
snubber across the contacts to reduce the arcing because I noticed
that the contacts were starting to pit somewhat.
In my searching, I came across an ad about a product called NOsparc that
is supposed to completely eliminate the arcing.

Purchased one and installed it. I tested it in the dark to see if
I could see any arcing at all and it seemed to work as indicated;
I just barely could see a spark in the dark.

Well, fast forward 2 months later.
I had just went outside when I heard a whining noise; I thought it
was the hum of a distant piece of machinery.

A few minutes later, wife opens the door and says, "what is making
that noise". Soon as she opened the door, I realized that the noise
was coming from inside the house. I ran to the pump room where the
noise was and first thing I noticed was that the pressue gauge was
reading 95 psi and still climbing. I immediately killed power to
the pump. The pressure started to drop but the noise continued.
Then I realized that the noise was the overpressure valve
venting the water.

After the pressure dropped to the cut-on point I removed the switch cover
and turned power back on to the pump. When the cut-off point was
reached, the contacts opened but the pump still ran.

I thought,"that's impossible", then I realized that the only way
the pump could still get power was through that NOsparc suppressor.

Removed the NOsparc, then everything was fine.

I shudder to think what might have happened if the pump had continued
to run. I had no idea the pump would even build to 95 psi and it was still
climbing higher even with the overpressure valve open.

So, here's a product that caused exactly what it was supposed to prevent!

Thought a warning was in order in case anyone has installed this or a
similar product across the contacts of your pump's pressure switch.

Arky217

 

[G_P]

You should probably replace that pressure relief valve as well. It should have been blowing a solid stream of water at 95psi and if it was making funny noises it's probably not opening all the way or is full of debris.

How much water did you have to clean up after that?

 

[Arky217]

You should probably replace that pressure relief valve as well. It should have been blowing a solid stream of water at 95psi and if it was making funny noises it's probably not opening all the way or is full of debris.

How much water did you have to clean up after that?

The pressure relief valve is plumbed to the outside and it certainly was
blowing a solid large stream of water. It's only a year old and by the volume
of water coming from it, I would say that it did it's job.

I guess my pump is somewhat more powerful than I thought.

Thankfully, I didn't have any water to clean up, but I'm sure that if I hadn't
noticed it when I did, something would probably have burst.

 

[G_P]

Good thing it was plumbed outside!
Maybe a larger diameter relief valve would allow for more flow volume to keep the pressure lower in the event the pump gets stuck running again?
Do they make any kind of control that will kill power to the pressure switch/pump if the pressure gets too high?

 

[rlitman]

I thought,"that's impossible", then I realized that the only way
the pump could still get power was through that NOsparc suppressor.

Removed the NOsparc, then everything was fine....So, here's a product that caused exactly what it was supposed to prevent!

Interesting, I wonder how their product worked. If it used MOVs, I would expect it to fail like that. This is a job for a zener diode.

 

[monkeyspanners]

Use the pressure switch to operate a contactor to power the well pump, it should last years then with no trouble.

 

[Cyberbear]

My system uses an in line pressure switch that controls the coil of the motor starter for my jet pump. This way I have redundant protection from over pressure when the factory motor pressure switch contacts arc closed and tries to over pressure my system 60 # max.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Use the pressure switch to operate a contactor to power the well pump, it should last years then with no trouble.

Yep, this ^^^^^ as it takes the motor start load away from your PS and puts it on to a device designed to handle it better ( contactor or starter) As said, let the PS control the engaging coil on your contactor. Just be sure to check the max amp ratings on your new starter/contactor, to be sure it will handle the pump load. JMO .

 

[kbs2244]

How big of a pump do you have that is still building pressure at 95 PSI?
Most of the ones I have seen would have stalled before then.

 

[TDWendt]

kind of off topic but still relevant I think, I've had my house for almost a year now. and I've replaced the pressure switch 4 times already. checked the pressure on the tank with it empty and set it to 2 psi under my switch low level. I think I may have to do it again. because it's clicking like crazy again. and sometimes my water will randomly stop running, like yesterday when I was showering and tonight while my boys were getting a bath. didn't have to tap on the switch either time bit that is how it started the last time the switch when bad..

using square D switches.

could the Blatter in my wel-x-trol 20 gal tank be bad, meaning I need a new one.

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[FullRaceMerc]

The pressure relief valve is plumbed to the outside and it certainly was
blowing a solid large stream of water. It's only a year old and by the volume
of water coming from it, I would say that it did it's job.

I guess my pump is somewhat more powerful than I thought.

Thankfully, I didn't have any water to clean up, but I'm sure that if I hadn't
noticed it when I did, something would probably have burst.

Maybe add a second relief valve somewhere else in the system since the one wasn't able to keep up.

 

[RAYJAY]

kind of off topic but still relevant I think, I've had my house for almost a year now. and I've replaced the pressure switch 4 times already. checked the pressure on the tank with it empty and set it to 2 psi under my switch low level. I think I may have to do it again. because it's clicking like crazy again. and sometimes my water will randomly stop running, like yesterday when I was showering and tonight while my boys were getting a bath. didn't have to tap on the switch either time bit that is how it started the last time the switch when bad..

using square D switches.

could the Blatter in my wel-x-trol 20 gal tank be bad, meaning I need a new one.

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sounds like the bladder is bad here is how to check it

http://www.wellblog.pumpsandtanks.c...check-my-bladder-tank-to-see-if-its-gone-bad/

 

[sberry]

This is a poster case for not adding additional equipment and gizmos to pre engineered systems. This happens all the time with air comps as now everyone with their first comp has a ton of new ideas the mfg and the code people were stupid not to include, many end like this.

Removed the NOsparc, then everything was fine

All this due to some fear from some arc on contacts which is normal. If one didn't try to add another "safety device" it would likely worked like it should have.

 

[TDWendt]

sounds like the bladder is bad here is how to check it

http://www.wellblog.pumpsandtanks.c...check-my-bladder-tank-to-see-if-its-gone-bad/

ok, so I did the air valve check and yep I got water out :-(

do you know if I can replace just the bladder? or the entire tank

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[sberry]

New tank. This should be a good trouble shooting lesson. If one keeps replacing the same part maybe there is something else wrong?

 

[TDWendt]

New tank. This should be a good trouble shooting lesson. If one keeps replacing the same part maybe there is something else wrong?

very true, I know next to nothing about water systems, I came from the city. as long as the bill was paid we had water lol thank you though I'll get a new one

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[brianh]

ok, so I did the air valve check and yep I got water out :-(

do you know if I can replace just the bladder? or the entire tank

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If your tank is waterlogged that is really bad for your pump, for the time being until you get a new tank pump some air in the tank water does not compress so the pump will pulse cycle when a faucet is opened.

Was at a friends house they had the same issue put some air in the tank for them, they did not follow up on it and burned out the pump that was 400 feet down.

 

[sberry]

Every one of the redesign and re engineering solutions would have left it with the original problem.

 

[TDWendt]

If your tank is waterlogged that is really bad for your pump, for the time being until you get a new tank pump some air in the tank water does not compress so the pump will pulse cycle when a faucet is opened.

Was at a friends house they had the same issue put some air in the tank for them, they did not follow up on it and burned out the pump that was 400 feet down.

it wasn't a lot of water but there was some, I'm gonna cut power to it and drain it, and reset the pressure today I will be able to order another tank hopefully in the next couple weeks



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[sberry]

very true, I know next to nothing about water systems, I came from the city. as long as the bill was paid we had water lol thank you though I'll get a new one

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There are a couple pretty good sites about well info and like a lot of these systems its a lot to remember when you work on they so rarely. I bout got to relearn it all to make a simple adjustment and I often consult with a master works for me, between the 2 of us we put our finger on it and even solved some real problems from Utube which can explain it way better on occasion than many in person.
This is a super problem to learn on, several things and types of systems related and rely on each other.

 

[TDWendt]

should I look into a different brand of tank? or stick with the same one I have. a new well x trol is about 200 bucks which should isn't bad imo.

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[TDWendt]

I'm also curious on why the op pump continued to make pressure, surprised the tank held up to 95psi

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[sberry]

I am kind of direct about it but usually isn't aimed at the OP but people responding that should know better. You should send 50$ to the first guy to suggest maybe something else was wrong, this obviously must have worked for some time till we come along and decided it needed improvement?
Back to wells, I have a gage where I can see it. I found a couple problems I may not have even been aware of till failure by being able to see it and also allows for tailoring the load to run steady in hi demand vs cycling. Usually for tank fill or irrigation.
I watch mine and even do a draw down test with a measuring barrel. a couple times a year.

 

[sberry]

should I look into a different brand of tank? or stick with the same one I have. a new well x trol is about 200 bucks which should isn't bad imo.

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What size are all the parts in this, what size drop pipe, system piping and hp of the well? If a guy has a lot of use can upsize the tank, doesn't hurt a thing.

 

[sberry]

I'm also curious on why the op pump continued to make pressure, surprised the tank held up to 95psi

It was trying to shut off but couldn't, slamming on and off in a hydraulic condition. The tank will hold 95 easy, its probably a 300# vessel.

 

[RAYJAY]

ok, so I did the air valve check and yep I got water out :-(

do you know if I can replace just the bladder? or the entire tank

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sorry but the whole tank you can try here for a price on a tank i buy 90% of my plumbing supply's from them, prices are good service is the best

as for brand i like x-trol and get it replaced asap, it will kill your well pump if you do not

http://www.supplyhouse.com/

 

[sberry]

I have seen a couple installs lately with reducing bushings in tank where the service or installer must keep only a couple sizes. I repaired one for a neighbor, the tank we dug up, I was rather impressed as this was a pretty good well of maybe 1 hp or so and really kicked out the water.
If the system plumbing is 3/4 and there is room would consider going up to a tank has 1 inch port, its usually one bigger than the minimum sized for the well.

 

[TDWendt]

What size are all the parts in this, what size drop pipe, system piping and hp of the well? If a guy has a lot of use can upsize the tank, doesn't hurt a thing.

no idea, on any of this. I can take a pic of the area if you would like.

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[TDWendt]

sorry but the whole tank you can try here for a price on a tank i buy 90% of my plumbing supply's from them, prices are good service is the best

as for brand i like x-trol and get it replaced asap, it will kill your well pump if you do not

http://www.supplyhouse.com/

this is actually where I priced em

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[TDWendt]

I have seen a couple installs lately with reducing bushings in tank where the service or installer must keep only a couple sizes. I repaired one for a neighbor, the tank we dug up, I was rather impressed as this was a pretty good well of maybe 1 hp or so and really kicked out the water.
If the system plumbing is 3/4 and there is room would consider going up to a tank has 1 inch port, its usually one bigger than the minimum sized for the well.

we have radiant heat also so the furnace is a boiler I believe

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[sberry]

That looks pretty good already and may be a problem to fit bigger tank. I might shoot for an exact replacement here.
I believe you may be able to shut off well and use air to purge the water out, then turn well back on, this should relive the short cycle for a bit but may need to adjust the air pressure to allow the cut in off to work, most likely have to add some after it pumps a bit.???
I am sure there are minds here greater than my own who have routine experience.

 

[TDWendt]

That looks pretty good already and may be a problem to fit bigger tank. I might shoot for an exact replacement here.

ok, thanks. hopefully install is straightforward-ish

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[RAYJAY]

a little off topic but the green tank on your heating system is a pressure tank also had them go bad too. need to be checked before every heat season

 

[TDWendt]

a little off topic but the green tank on your heating system is a pressure tank also had them go bad too. need to be checked before every heat season

the one up top? that's an expansion tank

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[RAYJAY]

the one up top? that's an expansion tank

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yep it work the same as your well tank in principle.....

 

[Rj555]

Had this happen about three years ago at the old place. The contacts on the pressure switch fused. There were two houses a barn, shop and several hydrants on the well. Noticed the toilet valve wouldn't shut off and the hydrant was running lots of water knocking rust and other stuff out.

Went down to the well house. The pressure gauge was showing 190 PSI. I pulled the shutoff. Dad called the guy. The valve to air up the tank was popping out, I am sure the tank would have failed if the well pump wasn't shut off.

New electric switch, a new pressure tank and cleaned up fittings, the problem was solved.

 

[Arky217]

This is a poster case for not adding additional equipment and gizmos to pre engineered systems. This happens all the time with air comps as now everyone with their first comp has a ton of new ideas the mfg and the code people were stupid not to include, many end like this. All this due to some fear from some arc on contacts which is normal. If one didn't try to add another "safety device" it would likely worked like it should have.

Right, all pre engineered systems work just like they should, NOT !

Read the post at the bottom of this page.

The NOsparc product is pre engineered; look how it worked !

At 70 years, I have worn a lot of hats in the past; electrical engineer, electronics technician, industrial electrician, control systems designer, industrial systems programmer, etc., etc., etc.

I mention this to give some validity to the following:
I have seen literally scores, if not hundreds, of 'pre engineered' products/designs that did anything but work like they were designed to do.

As a recent example, try telling someone whose relative was killed by one of the auto makers who took the vehicle's throttle out of direct control and put it put the vehicle's computer as a link between the operator and the throttle, that the design worked like it was supposed to.

In all my work experience, probably my most important task was designing
fail safe modes for operator errors.
Though most products/systems work like they should, I have personally had to deal with many that just left me scratching my head, wondering "what were they thinking".

Back to the subject at hand, I have seen a number of well pump switch contacts that have arced to the point of welding shut. The typical well pump control is far from foolproof or fail safe, as the post below reveals.

Had this happen about three years ago at the old place. The contacts on the pressure switch fused. There were two houses a barn, shop and several hydrants on the well. Noticed the toilet valve wouldn't shut off and the hydrant was running lots of water knocking rust and other stuff out.

Went down to the well house. The pressure gauge was showing 190 PSI. I pulled the shutoff. Dad called the guy. The valve to air up the tank was popping out, I am sure the tank would have failed if the well pump wasn't shut off.

New electric switch, a new pressure tank and cleaned up fittings, the problem was solved.

 

[sberry]

The NOsparc product is pre engineered; look how it worked !

Did the no spark come on this unit? Does the mfg recommend installing this and do they offer it? I agree not all things work as should or should be serviced at some point as a problem is developing but the amateur is not going to greatly improve a well system or an air comp by installing some more after market gizmos.

In all my work experience, probably my most important task was designing
fail safe modes for operator errors.

Yes its your job, totally different than thumbing thru the internet looking for add ons that may defeat many of the engineered features you as a designer put in. This is living proof, something the guy added failed.

 

[sberry]

The typical well pump control is far from foolproof or fail safe, as the post below reveals.

There was a problem long before the welding of the contacts occurred.

In my searching, I came across an ad about a product

This says it all.
In the case of the no sparc they guy fukked with a working system before there was a problem.

 

[Arky217]

Did the no spark come on this unit? Does the mfg recommend installing this and do they offer it? I agree not all things work as should or should be serviced at some point as a problem is developing but the amateur is not going to greatly improve a well system or an air comp by installing some more after market gizmos.

Yes its your job, totally different than thumbing thru the internet looking for add ons that may defeat many of the engineered features you as a designer put in. This is living proof, something the guy added failed.

There was a problem long before the welding of the contacts occurred.
This says it all.
In the case of the no sparc they guy fukked with a working system before there was a problem.

Your comments above in no way invalidate what I said in post #37.

May all the systems or products that you have anything to do with always
work as they should.