Handibot

[Ryan]

Technology is bringing us some crazy things... It won't be long before you can control a full on 6-axis CNC machine from your iPhone.


To read the rest of this blog entry from The Garage Journal, click here.

 

[TAMPAGT07]

That's pretty cool....(I was expecting a robot Handyguy tow truck driver, but it's still cool.)

 

[gahrajmahal]

It would be interesting to know what CAD CAM software interfaces with it. I've been out of that for a while, but tablet, mobile phone enabling?? God help me if I have to design a part on my phone. I can barely read the GJ postings on it.

 

[Garage Coffee Roaster]

It is a great idea. I could see using it on site for jobs that require time consuming cuts and joints.

 

[t4runner]

Thats a very cool tool.

 

[justanengineer]

Technology is bringing us some crazy things... It won't be long before you can control a full on 6-axis CNC machine from your iPhone.

It all depends on the definition of "control." Remote monitoring of production lines via smartphones has been done for a few years now and I personally know a guy that regularly fixes G-code issues on his phone so he doesnt have to walk back and forth between the inspection area, the machine lines, his desk, etc. We've done similar things with remote computers for years, the only thing new is the size of the box youre in front of. Design work OTOH is quite another story. I cannot have too big or too many screens in front of me for that work. Im up to four currently and wish I could get at least two more.

Kudos to the team that created this. Im not normally a fan of the homebrew cnc stuff, but this is a neat looking lil toy.

 

[helterskelter]

That thing is a toy. It has absolutely no real value. It isn't accurate, it isn't rigid enough to take a real cut, and it's slow. It's only purpose is for fiddling around.

 

[Thephranc]

This has been pimped in the trade mag for the sign industry. So much potential use.

 

[kythri]

That thing is a toy. It has absolutely no real value. It isn't accurate, it isn't rigid enough to take a real cut, and it's slow. It's only purpose is for fiddling around.

I disagree.

While it may not have an industrial or commercial services role to play, once the cost goes down and any kinks are worked out, I can see a LOT of advanced home users doing some awesome customization work to their homes and projects.

With an open community behind it publishing designs/patterns/etc? There's a LOT of value. I'm not likely to be an early adopter of something like this, but that next refined revision? There's a number of projects I'd love to tackle and incorporate something like this into it.

And honestly, it's at a prototype/early release stage. Future revisions would/could easily address structural and speed issues.

 

[Outlawmws]

That thing is a toy. It has absolutely no real value. It isn't accurate, it isn't rigid enough to take a real cut, and it's slow. It's only purpose is for fiddling around.

Let's see, how to say this clearly?

Ah! that would be:

Wrong,
Wrong,
Wrong,
Wrong,and
Wrong!

 

[oberst]

That thing is a toy. It has absolutely no real value. ..... It's only purpose is for fiddling around.

>

People used to say the same thing about the personal computer.

Personally, I can see this as a stepping stone, along the same lines as the current iteration of 3D printing.

(Jeez, it's a home CNC machine! I think that's amazing!)

 

[Danglerb]

That thing is a toy. It has absolutely no real value. It isn't accurate, it isn't rigid enough to take a real cut, and it's slow. It's only purpose is for fiddling around.

Its amazing the level of compensation you can make in software if you have full control of the mechanical and a standard, predictable design.

Two ways to make precise movement; use extreme tight tolerance in all parts, have an accurate way of knowing position and compensate for all the slop and load variation.

Devices like this one are going to come in different flavors of quality, but hopefully use a common part description so I could design a speaker baffle (part you mount drivers to.) and have a working part made on any machine.

Fairly complex 3D designs can be made by cutting sheets and stacking.

Two main questions, what will it cost to buy one, rent time on one?

 

[rslaback]

It would be interesting to know what CAD CAM software interfaces with it. I've been out of that for a while, but tablet, mobile phone enabling?? God help me if I have to design a part on my phone. I can barely read the GJ postings on it.

I have a full size shopbot in my school. When I first bought it 8 years ago or so it had a proprietary software based on ArtCam. Since then Shopbot has switched over to a toolpathing software based on Vcarve pro.

Either way, the code was always a proprietary conversational code. Not sure if Shopbot has designed their control software to read g code yet or not or if the Handibot would run their conversational or g code or both.

In terms of usability, all cnc is "slow", particularly 3D. In terms of size, most of the things I do with our 4'x8' could be done with that particularly if it indexes.

 

[helterskelter]

Let's see, how to say this clearly?

Ah! that would be:

Wrong,
Wrong,
Wrong,
Wrong,and
Wrong!

I knew my post would get a rise out of some people. Can you please give one good example of how this tool could be used in industry where there isn't already something better in place? Why would anyone use a crappy CNC router when they already make really nice ones? How many of these handibots do you think are going to end up in the hands of professionals? Would you want to count on this to make a living or would you buy a real machine?

It's a widget who's only purpose is fiddling around in a garage. It's not for actual work. So that would make it a toy. It falls under the same category as HF mini-mills and 3 in 1 lathe drill presses.

 

[helterskelter]

I have a full size shopbot in my school. When I first bought it 8 years ago or so it had a proprietary software based on ArtCam. Since then Shopbot has switched over to a toolpathing software based on Vcarve pro.

Either way, the code was always a proprietary conversational code. Not sure if Shopbot has designed their control software to read g code yet or not or if the Handibot would run their conversational or g code or both.

In terms of usability, all cnc is "slow", particularly 3D. In terms of size, most of the things I do with our 4'x8' could be done with that particularly if it indexes.

All CNC is not slow.

 

[kythri]

I knew my post would get a rise out of some people. Can you please give one good example of how this tool could be used in industry where there isn't already something better in place?

Well, duh. Why would this be used where something is already better in place? It likely wouldn't.

That's just a horrible attempt at validating your opinion.

Fortunately, it's a great big world, and there's plenty of places that DON'T have ANYTHING in place, let alone something better.

Why would anyone use a crappy CNC router when they already make really nice ones?

Because "really nice ones" are more expensive and require significantly more training.

How many of these handibots do you think are going to end up in the hands of professionals?

It depends on what you class as "professionals" - I can see a number of applications for something like this - a small, portable unit capable of doing some cool work with a minimum of training, given the apps that they intend to have available for it. While it's likely a bit more complicated than "point-and-click", it's not appearing to be something that's going to require a large investment of training time or CNC experience to operate.

Would you want to count on this to make a living or would you buy a real machine?

Again, it depends on the level of business one is doing. Certainly, one can't deny that there's better machines out there, or machines better suited to certain tasks, but something like this also allows a lot of folks to start playing with the technology and prototyping or utilizing for lower production tasks.

Once the initial kinks have been worked out (and it looks like they've already adjusted some - they've built stiffer mountings for the router, and changed the make/model of router to one better suited for the task), once it's gone into regular production, I'd be seriously interesting in going in on one with a friend, to start making some custom brackets and mounts for a few different vehicle projects. I think the relatively low cost (based on what some of the KS reward levels were) would end up paying for itself in a short period of time, plus having the on-demand ability to build something, tweak as needed, then re-build.

It's a widget who's only purpose is fiddling around in a garage. It's not for actual work. So that would make it a toy. It falls under the same category as HF mini-mills and 3 in 1 lathe drill presses.

Says you, with absolutely zero experience with the actual device. Why does the existence and production of this device threaten you so?

 

[Outlawmws]

I knew my post would get a rise out of some people. Can you please give one good example of how this tool could be used in industry where there isn't already something better in place? Why would anyone use a crappy CNC router when they already make really nice ones? How many of these handibots do you think are going to end up in the hands of professionals? Would you want to count on this to make a living or would you buy a real machine?

It's a widget who's only purpose is fiddling around in a garage. It's not for actual work. So that would make it a toy. It falls under the same category as HF mini-mills and 3 in 1 lathe drill presses.

So you are admitting you are just trolling to get a rise out of people? Not exactly a smart thing to do in a thread originated by the Forum owner!

And no, you were the one than made un-substantiated statements... You substantiate your comments; all of them. As of now it just supposition on your part, unless you have actually used and evaluated the device in question. I strongly doubt you have, so you made your evaluation based on what? reviewing a Utube vid?

 

[helterskelter]

So you are admitting you are just trolling to get a rise out of people? Not exactly a smart thing to do in a thread originated by the Forum owner!

And no, you were the one than made un-substantiated statements... You substantiate your comments; all of them. As of now it just supposition on your part, unless you have actually used and evaluated the device in question. I strongly doubt you have, so you made your evaluation based on what? reviewing a Utube vid?

I'll be looking forward to seeing all these 'handibots' showing up in CNC shops everywhere .

And yes I can substantiate my claims. I said it was slow (this is clear in the video), not rigid enough to make a serious cut (The dinky router's spindle will stall and it's too light weight), and I said it isn't accurate (again this is obvious, do you think it has ball screws, highly accurate servos and expensive glass scales for positioning?). My final claim was that it is a toy. If all you can use it for is making widgets in your garage then it is classified as a toy. You might make nice furniture or whatever in your garage but if you're not making your living with it then it's a hobby. This is a hobbyist machine.

So the point of my post is that while it's a cool machine and I'd like to play with one in my garage, lets not get carried away with it's capabilities. This isn't some revolutionary step forward in CNC machining.

 

[rslaback]

Can you please give one good example of how this tool could be used in industry where there isn't already something better in place?

Sign shop for putting a keyhole slot or slots in a sign which has already been engraved or carved and profile cut on one side. This would allow you to not have to reindex the already cut sign which can be a complete pain in the ***. Using a hand plunge router it is more difficult than you would guess to get a perfect keyhole.

 

[kythri]

I'll be looking forward to seeing all these 'handibots' showing up in CNC shops everywhere .

Again, I say, DUH. You claim you watched the video. Can you point me to the part where these folks have specifically targeted CNC shops as a buyer of this tool?

Or are you going to continue to try to legitimize your claims by using ridiculous suppositions like this?

lets not get carried away with it's capabilities. This isn't some revolutionary step forward in CNC machining.

Let's not get carried away with hyperbole or misrepresenting what this tool and it's maker's are trying to do here, OK?

And, yeah, this actually IS kind of a revolutionary step forward - it's bringing CNC machining to the masses, to the garage, it's turning it into "a toy" to use your own disparaging remarks.

Giving the home user or the small business the ability to do this kind of work themselves is nothing short of amazing.

 

[helterskelter]

Sign shop for putting a keyhole slot or slots in a sign which has already been engraved or carved and profile cut on one side. This would allow you to not have to reindex the already cut sign which can be a complete pain in the ***. Using a hand plunge router it is more difficult than you would guess to get a perfect keyhole.

Seems overkill to have 3-axis simultaneous positioning if all you're going to use it for is to cut keyhole slots. Wouldn't a clever jig (or a couple clever jigs) + plunge router be cheaper and more efficient?

 

[helterskelter]

Again, I say, DUH. You claim you watched the video. Can you point me to the part where these folks have specifically targeted CNC shops as a buyer of this tool?

Or are you going to continue to try to legitimize your claims by using ridiculous suppositions like this?



Let's not get carried away with hyperbole or misrepresenting what this tool and it's maker's are trying to do here, OK?

And, yeah, this actually IS kind of a revolutionary step forward - it's bringing CNC machining to the masses, to the garage, it's turning it into "a toy" to use your own disparaging remarks.

Giving the home user or the small business the ability to do this kind of work themselves is nothing short of amazing.

They already make nice CNC routers with much heavier duty spindles and more rigid construction that are well within the price range of the hobbyist user. You can even buy used ones to bring the price down further. One of the engineers I use to work with had a CNC router in his garage and made some nice stuff on it.

Look at the size of that little router and please explain to me how you would not be better off investing in a real CNC router? It's a gimmick tool.

 

[kythri]

I don't know how to program a CNC. I don't have any of the software required to plot/spec something out. My understanding is that these are licensed software programs costing a fair amount of money, CAD/CAM stuff, yeah?

I don't wish to dedicate space to a "real" CNC router. I don't have 3-phase power, which many of these seem to require.

Having a tool like this would allow me to distribute the acquisition cost with a friend or my father, and we could have shared-custody of the unit.

These are all reasons why I personally would be better off NOT investing in a "real" CNC router, and that's only the beginning.

 

[helterskelter]

I don't know how to program a CNC. I don't have any of the software required to plot/spec something out. My understanding is that these are licensed software programs costing a fair amount of money, CAD/CAM stuff, yeah?

I don't wish to dedicate space to a "real" CNC router. I don't have 3-phase power, which many of these seem to require.

Having a tool like this would allow me to distribute the acquisition cost with a friend or my father, and we could have shared-custody of the unit.

These are all reasons why I personally would be better off NOT investing in a "real" CNC router, and that's only the beginning.

High-end CAM software is *very* expensive. But you can get into the lower end stuff for a reasonable price. Whether you buy a real CNC router or this handibot, you're still going to have to learn the CAM software. There's no such thing as 'just press go' in CNC. You're going to have to define the surfaces and pick the tool paths no matter which option you go with.

So it is my opinion you would be better off investing in a 'real' CNC router. This handi-widget does not look cheap. You can buy a used 'real' CNC router that will have established software with an established user base (IE forums where you can ask questions) for a reasonable price. It will run on 220V single phase and will have a much higher duty cycle and heavier duty spindle than this machine.

I stand by my claim that I think this tool is neat and cool, but it is a gimmick and the vast majority of people would be better served with something different.

 

[rslaback]

They already make nice CNC routers with much heavier duty spindles and more rigid construction that are well within the price range of the hobbyist user. You can even buy used ones to bring the price down further. One of the engineers I use to work with had a CNC router in his garage and made some nice stuff on it.

Look at the size of that little router and please explain to me how you would not be better off investing in a real CNC router? It's a gimmick tool.

Portability comes to mind. If you watch the video you'll see that one of the jobs they cut is a stair stringer. An absolutely perfect application that I can think of for this would be cutting a recessed stair stringer. They are often called housed stringers.

Because the distance from level to level in a stairway is never the same there is no such thing as universal stringer. They are all custom cut. Routing one by hand is tedious and time consuming to say the least. Especially since you cannot screw temporary fences to the stringer. The Handibot would let you program in a tread hole and riser hole and let it go to work. After it completed one set you index it over, rinse, lather, repeat. While it is doing that job you can be cutting all your treads and risers.

Hauling a stringer like this from a shop environment (where your regular cnc is too small anyway and would have to be indexed anyway) is fairly impractical as the stringer needs to be held vertically so as to not break so most are cut on site.

 

[rslaback]

You can buy a used 'real' CNC router that will have established software with an established user base (IE forums where you can ask questions) for a reasonable price.

I really need to quit feeding the troll but I couldn't let this statement go as it is laughable. Shopbot has the most active machine specific user forum out there.

 

[kythri]

How about parts/repair and software support?

If a "real" CNC router breaks, am I going to have to deal with the manufacturer for proprietary parts?

What about driver support? I'm assuming that these "real" CNC routers have some kind of interface/control PC, yeah? How does this operate? If my controller PC dies, and I don't have the option of utilizing the same OS, will the drivers/control software operate on a newer OS?

 

[helterskelter]

I really need to quit feeding the troll but I couldn't let this statement go as it is laughable. Shopbot has the most active machine specific user forum out there.

Didn't realize it was a shopbot, so I'll take back that statement. I'll also agree with you that a stringer seems a reasonable application (still thing a clever jig would do it faster / cheaper).

I still think most applications are better served with a standard CNC router.

 

[helterskelter]

How about parts/repair and software support?

If a "real" CNC router breaks, am I going to have to deal with the manufacturer for proprietary parts?

What about driver support? I'm assuming that these "real" CNC routers have some kind of interface/control PC, yeah? How does this operate? If my controller PC dies, and I don't have the option of utilizing the same OS, will the drivers/control software operate on a newer OS?

I didn't realize this was a shopbot, so my mistake. They make real CNC routers so you'll be fine with parts and support. Still think a standard CNC router is a better fit for the vast majority of applications.

 

[kythri]

But, I thought you said you watched the video?

You know, the one where they identified that they were ShopBot in the first 10 seconds of it?

 

[Outlawmws]

I'll be looking forward to seeing all these 'handibots' showing up in CNC shops everywhere .

And yes I can substantiate my claims. I said it was slow (this is clear in the video), not rigid enough to make a serious cut (The dinky router's spindle will stall and it's too light weight), and I said it isn't accurate (again this is obvious, do you think it has ball screws, highly accurate servos and expensive glass scales for positioning?). My final claim was that it is a toy. If all you can use it for is making widgets in your garage then it is classified as a toy. You might make nice furniture or whatever in your garage but if you're not making your living with it then it's a hobby. This is a hobbyist machine.

So the point of my post is that while it's a cool machine and I'd like to play with one in my garage, lets not get carried away with it's capabilities. This isn't some revolutionary step forward in CNC machining.

More unsubstantiated drivel. you haven't used it so your comments are nothing but supposition.

Accuracy is relative, they were cutting wood, for pete's sake, not making or claiming to make aerospace components to half thou tolerances. How accurate do you think most carpenters and even cabinetry work is done to? using what tools? "methinks he doth protest too much."

I can see that tool used for repeat work in many shop and pro situations. Because it's CNC you can set it up and go do something else while it finishes, so time is hardly a concern. Light repeat passes gets you past any supposed "flex" and no, I didn't see anything close to flex or stalling in the vid. You haven't handled it so any weakness are pure conjecture.

You can go troll somewhere else; or if you must insist on your OPINIONS... state them is a way that isn't a damn ****** trolls behavior.

 

[Jim C.]

It seems like a pretty innovative tool, but if I understood correctly after watching the video, it costs about $2,500. I'm a serious woodworker hobbyist, but that machine is probably not for me. I'd never come close to getting my money's worth out of it. Also, it seems to take the "woodworking" out of woodworking. Simply progaramming a machine, standing back, and letting it do the "woodworking" for me sort of makes me more a "machine programmer" versus a woodworker. How would my skills as a woodworker ever improve? I'll stick with hand made hardboard templates and bearing guided router bits, a mallet and chisels, and hand held carving/cutting tools.

Like I said, it seems like an innovative machine with some very practical uses. For a home hobbyist, who isn't pressed for time, and who enjoys using some traditional machinery and hand tools, as well as the process of woodworking much more than machine programming, it's probably not going to end up in my shop any time soon.

Jim C.

 

[Shoottx]

It seems like a pretty innovative tool, but if I understood correctly after watching the video, it costs about $2,500. I'm a serious woodworker hobbyist, but that machine is probably not for me. I'd never come close to getting my money's worth out of it. Also, it seems to take the "woodworking" out of woodworking. Simply progaramming a machine, standing back, and letting it do the "woodworking" for me sort of makes me more a "machine programmer" versus a woodworker. How would my skills as a woodworker ever improve? I'll stick with hand made hardboard templates and bearing guided router bits, a mallet and chisels, and hand held carving/cutting tools.

Like I said, it seems like an innovative machine with some very practical uses. For a home hobbyist, who isn't pressed for time, and who enjoys using some traditional machinery and hand tools, as well as the process of woodworking much more than machine programming, it's probably not going to end up in my shop any time soon.

Jim C.

Jim

As a fellow woodworker I understand your response, kinda! In woodworking there is a huge range of opportunity for the use of innovative tools, techniques and machinery to improve the output of our efforts. We have gone from saws and router planes to routers, hand saw to table saws, and I could go on and on about examples. In fact what struck me as funny in your comments was the thought of using "hardboard templates and bearing guided router bits" in wood working production. While you consider this not being a "machine programer" it is really just a step bellow CNC production,

Depending on the type of woodworking, and level of production in a given shop I can see these "bots" being a great asset. I do not think they are for everyone, nor are they appropriate for all shops, but for a lot of shops at the entry level pricing, I can see lots of uses!

Not trying to stir the pot just adding a different perspective.

 

[lilscorpion]

I've personally owned a few CNC production plasma tables, a few cnc mills, and a cnc lathe. Lathes and mills get their rigidity from extremely stiff ways and zero backlash screws which keeps things in place when the cutter engages. There wasn't a very clear view of the drive setup on the unit...I'm curious.

Another thing that's interesting to me is the scene in the video where it appeared to be using the board itself as the guide for the roller bearings. In theory that would work but anyone having used a mill or lathe with sloppy ways knows that even just a little slop here or there makes for a sometimes unpredictable cut or part finish.

I think it's a really neat idea...I get it. The notion of the portable CNC is a good one but what I'm not so sure of is if the contractors that are hired to do certain things could actually justify one. In all contracts/jobs I've been a part of over the years the parts need to complete a job were either delivered to the site pre-fab'd and ready to go or are easy enough to fabricate at the job site with the typical tools. Figuring out how to pay for something like that would be tough unless the cost of having it made it so reasonable to use that contractors no longer pre-built parts off of prints...dunno.

Would I want to play with one and see what it could do? Hell yes. I'm sure there are suitable applications for one and, if nothing else, it's aways fun watching the making of chips.

 

[mike13u]

If all you can use it for is making widgets in your garage then it is classified as a toy. You might make nice furniture or whatever in your garage but if you're not making your living with it then it's a hobby. This is a hobbyist machine.

So the point of my post is that while it's a cool machine and I'd like to play with one in my garage, lets not get carried away with it's capabilities.

Is this suddenly a forum for the CNC industry??
I kinda though it was a place for people that like to make things in their garages.

 

[Bradley Miller]

Speaking of which . . . . let the snipes about "real" 3D printers begin . . .

http://now.msn.com/paul-mccarthy-ma...d-printer-to-make-prosthetic-hand-for-his-son

*Sigh*

 

[Jim C.]

Jim

As a fellow woodworker I understand your response, kinda! In woodworking there is a huge range of opportunity for the use of innovative tools, techniques and machinery to improve the output of our efforts. We have gone from saws and router planes to routers, hand saw to table saws, and I could go on and on about examples. In fact what struck me as funny in your comments was the thought of using "hardboard templates and bearing guided router bits" in wood working production. While you consider this not being a "machine programer" it is really just a step bellow CNC production,

Depending on the type of woodworking, and level of production in a given shop I can see these "bots" being a great asset. I do not think they are for everyone, nor are they appropriate for all shops, but for a lot of shops at the entry level pricing, I can see lots of uses!

Not trying to stir the pot just adding a different perspective.

Hey Mike,

Like I said, I think the handibot is an innovative and probably useful tool in the right setting. I should probably clarify my situation. I'm a home hobbyist woodworker. My shop is actually the third stall of my garage (about 500 square feet). I make one of a kind furniture for myself, family and friends. I don't sell any of this stuff. I just make it for the pure enjoyment of making it. I rarely if ever make the same thing twice. The 1/4" hardboard templates are basically jigs that I make, by hand, for specific projects, usually involving some need for hogging out a mortise, that I'll fine tune with a mallet and chisel. There's no production work involved. I use a lot of hand tools (hand planes, egg beater drills, chisels, hand files, hand saws, etc.) and some basic vintage machinery from the 1940s and 1950s (table saw, drill press, shaper, lathe). There's no programming and no electronics, just a simple, relatively low tech environment. In a production operation, where time is money, and people are making a living based on their output, I see the handibot as a potentially good investment. For me personally, I don't think it fits my style of woodworking, my budget, or my interests. It's cool, but it's not for me.

Jim C.

 

[Shoottx]

Jim

I too am an old tool guy mostly 50 -60s but a couple older walker turner tools, and lots of hand tools. In a lot of ways I think we are kindred spirits. I am working out of a one car garage and some of my wife's 2 car when I can get away with it. I have basically been a tool and wood collector for years. With a little more time on my hands lately, I have gotten more active in actually building things. And over the last several months I have taken on some small commercial projects requiring multiple versions of the same pieces.

I have looked at small CNC as a curiosity for some of theses projects. While interesting, the capacity did not seam to work well for my projects. And machines with the capacity for the projects would not fit my shop. So this kind of hybrid solution looks interesting.

As i said I think this "bot" is an interesting solution, perfect for some applications, not for every application, but a neat deal for some things.

 

[Jim C.]

Jim

I too am an old tool guy mostly 50 -60s but a couple older walker turner tools, and lots of hand tools. In a lot of ways I think we are kindred spirits. I am working out of a one car garage and some of my wife's 2 car when I can get away with it. I have basically been a tool and wood collector for years. With a little more time on my hands lately, I have gotten more active in actually building things. And over the last several months I have taken on some small commercial projects requiring multiple versions of the same pieces.

I have looked at small CNC as a curiosity for some of theses projects. While interesting, the capacity did not seam to work well for my projects. And machines with the capacity for the projects would not fit my shop. So this kind of hybrid solution looks interesting.

As i said I think this "bot" is an interesting solution, perfect for some applications, not for every application, but a neat deal for some things.

Hey Mike,

If you happen to get one, or get your hands on one for a test run, let me know how you like it.

Jim

 

[timtim2008]

i want one, how much are they?