Harbor Freight Billionaire

[zendriver]

I wouldn't want to be a company relying upon Chinese products at this point in time. Profits could evaporate in the blink of an eye leaving a smoking hole in the balance sheet.

\\

Well goodie, since American consumers will be the one's left holding the bag, for his idiocy.

As much as Americans like to make it "all about us", it really isn't any more. That's why product owner manuals, are written in 5 different languages. Chinese made products, with American band names, ARE SOLD ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Why would any company purposely raise production costs, by relocating to American factories, making it harder for them to compete in a global marketplace?

Answer: they won't.

 

[kctyphoon]

When I see HF customers, they don't strike me as particularity wealthy, but then I could be wrong.

Them being part of an American economy, that taxes for everything, usually giving to to someone else, who does not need or deserve it, then there are companies that charges $300 for an $10 epi-pen, employers offers part time, minimum wage jobs, with no insurance to pay for that pen. It's not to hard to believe they are not willing to dump more of their hard earned money, into that system

Maybe they are just wising up on how the game is played.

They could pay extra to an American tool company (Apex), so the creeps like Bain Capital, can **** off that additional revenue, profit out, then dump the carcass, right back in their laps, as taxpayers (ala Chrysler).

When people are struggling to make ends meets, spending more more just to supports someone else's higher paying job, is usually not a high priority.

I'm very curious how you differentiate between HF and Apex tools...

 

[zendriver]

I'm very curious how you differentiate between HF and Apex tools...

Apex sells a large number of American made product brands, Harbor freight nearly none, since they are an importer.

Likely, any product that both sell, Apex brands, will be higher priced.

I really make no distinction in the quality between the two, since that was not part of my point.

 

[Fcvapor05]

I have no problem with how he makes his money, my issue is how he's taking money out of the company. It's putting the company at risk and threatens the jobs he's created.

Unless you have access to the company's financial statements and balance sheets, you haven't a clue how risky his dividend recapitalization strategy is or isn't.

The linked article says something like $5 billion in debt recap over the last 11 years. That's less than $500 million a year in debt against a company with yearly revenues that this year will probably break $3 billion.

$500 million against $3 billion is not a lot. That's 1/6. I bet 95% of the people on this board who own homes are paying more than 1/6th of their monthly income toward their mortgage.

 

[oldtools]

The business model which relies upon global wage arbitrage is going to die, sooner rather than later. There are only so many countries in the world, and after you've exhausted all of the cheap labor, the chickens come home to roost.

Trump has vowed to impose tariffs. A lot of people say he won't do it. I am betting he will try as hard as he can. Look at what he's done in less than a month in office. He's instructed ICE to start rounding up illegals as fast as possible, he's talking about the border wall, he tried to put a stop to legal immigration until we figure out who these people from Syria, etc. actually are. He seems to be trying to keep his word.

I wouldn't want to be a company relying upon Chinese products at this point in time. Profits could evaporate in the blink of an eye leaving a smoking hole in the balance sheet.

When they run out of low cost countries, they will go to automation. There will certainly be retaliation for tariff. Tariff may provide job to a portion of the population, but it will also take away jobs from other portion of the population. Overall result will be not much gain in employment, but everybody will pay a higher price.

 

[kctyphoon]

Apex sells a large number of American made product brands, Harbor freight nearly none, since they are an importer.

Likely, any product that both sell, Apex brands, will be higher priced.

I really make no distinction in the quality between the two, since that was not part of my point.

When's the last time you walked into a HF store and actually looked at a package to see where some stuff comes from??????? You might surprise yourself..

 

[az45]

The issue with tariffs is that there are not necessarily cheap American made tools that being built that can be sold at the 30% or whatever increase caused by the tariffs. An American tool manufacturer would have to tool up a factory to build junk, which doesnt make sense.

Have you noticed the price of 15" trailer tires? Its the same deal, the Chinee 50 dollar tire is now been bumped to a 100. The thought was the American manufacturers would now be able to compete at the low end. What happened is the US manufacturers quit building the low priced tires by te time the tariffs were put into place. Now most the tarrifs have been lifted, but the tire prices are still high because there's no competition on the low end.

 

[Trey T]

Not sure why people are being so critical of the guys finance choices. They have a HUGELY successful chain, and the guy took money out of something HE HELPED CREATE, and invested it into real estate and some other things which he happens to live in and enjoy himself. WHO ELSE should benefit from what he built??? Stop hating - or has nobody in the forum taken a home equity loan?? That's basically what he's done.

It's funny how the biggest critics know better, yet never seem to be able to amass any wealth of their own.. haters gonna hate.. good for him..

It makes them feel better!?!?/

 

[PugetDude]

Saying that you have to be a man of means in order to be objectively critical of a system which is unfair to the masses is ludicrous. That's like saying a slave has no right to question his master.

We've been returning to a "Grapes of Wrath" situation where companies have complete and total control over employees, where wages don't pay for the cost of living, the old "company store" model. It doesn't end well for anybody.

Shouldn't you be painting vitriolic slogans on sheets for a protest somewhere?

 

[nh_yota]

That buys a lot of hookers and coke.

 

[Madrona]

Shouldn't you be painting vitriolic slogans on sheets for a protest somewhere?

I didn't vote for Clinton, can't stand George Soros, so no. Nice try, though. Rather than jump to conclusions about people, maybe you should learn about them, first.

 

[6PTsocket]

When they run out of low cost countries, they will go to automation. There will certainly be retaliation for tariff. Tariff may provide job to a portion of the population, but it will also take away jobs from other portion of the population. Overall result will be not much gain in employment, but everybody will pay a higher price.

What everybody forgets is that we are already up against import restrictions in many countries and we have not responded. There are plenty of foreign protctionists, too. Japan has found all kinds of ways to limit US imports. I favor free trade and Trump's position first concerned me. I see what he was advocating was reciprocal free trade and making sure it goes both ways.

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[PFSard]

What everybody forgets is that we are already up against import restrictions in many countries and we have not responded. There are plenty of foreign protctionists, too. Japan has found all kinds of ways to limit US imports. I favor free trade and Trump's position first concerned me. I see what he was advocating was reciprocal free trade and making sure it goes both ways.

This discussion has gotten a bit afield from HF, but ... I'm sure the U.S. has been no angel regarding import restrictions. Has anybody seen any studies regarding what roadblocks the U.S. has placed in the way of free trade?

 

[66354dream]

You can tell the multi-million-dollar estate must be fancy... it has more than one outhouse.

I noticed that too, maybe the rich and famous are making a fashion statement by bringing them back

 

[mudflap]

\\

Well goodie, since American consumers will be the one's left holding the bag, for his idiocy.

As much as Americans like to make it "all about us", it really isn't any more. That's why product owner manuals, are written in 5 different languages. Chinese made products, with American band names, ARE SOLD ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Why would any company purposely raise production costs, by relocating to American factories, making it harder for them to compete in a global marketplace?

Answer: they won't.

How will American consumers be left "holding the bag"...?

 

[Fcvapor05]

How will American consumers be left "holding the bag"...?

Because imposing trade tariffs does not guarantee reshoring of manufacturing operations to the US.

If the government imposes tariffs and little or no reshoring occurs, the only result is increased prices for American consumers.

 

[KEH]

Tariffs have always been a prickly issue in the US. By about 1820 industry was developing in the Northern states, among other things Northern states like MA was developing industry, chiefly metal working and textiles. South produced cotton and was slow to develop industry. South wanted to sell cotton to England which had a more developed industry that other countries. South wanted to buy tools and other metal items from England which was their best customer. Northern textile factories also wanted to buy cotton, which was no problem, except the English market was bigger. England could produce manufactured goods cheaper because they had a head start on the rest of the world and had a supply of cheaper labor than the US had. North wanted tariffs to protect industry. South wanted cheaper manufactured goods. This conflict was one of the causes of the US Civil War.

After the Civil War (1860-1865) Northern industry grew rapidly and there was a demand for labor. By 1900 Northern factories were moving South, particularly textile factories because the South was poor and had a good supply of cheap labor. The factories said they were moving south to be near the source of cotton, but cheap labor was the main reason. After World War I, (1924-1918) industry still wanted high tariffs and those tariffs possibly helped cause the Depression of the 1930s. Since the end of world War II in 1945 The movement has been toward low or no tariffs in the US, but not in all other countries, resulting in the present situation discussed above concerning low wage competition for the US.

"Those who don't study the past are condemned to repeat it."

KEH

 

[zendriver]

How will American consumers be left "holding the bag"...?

In order to continue to compete globally, Corporations will leave foreign manufacturing right like it is and any added tarrif costs, on all imported goods, will be passed, along to American consumers, who are already burdened with high living costs, high taxes and low wages.

That's how it works.

 

[zendriver]

This discussion has gotten a bit afield from HF, but ... I'm sure the U.S. has been no angel regarding import restrictions. Has anybody seen any studies regarding what roadblocks the U.S. has placed in the way of free trade?

It's not HF, but HD (Harley Davidson)

https://www.fool.com/investing/gene...-ago-today-tariffs-saved-harley-davidson.aspx

 

[tdellenburg]

Because imposing trade tariffs does not guarantee reshoring of manufacturing operations to the US.

If the government imposes tariffs and little or no reshoring occurs, the only result is increased prices for American consumers.

Reshoring has already begun; Ford, Fiat/ Chrysler, GM , Carrier. Just keep watching...

 

[Tatsuya]

Gotta love all the armchair CFOs on a tool forum...stick to tools you grease monkeys

Lol, right?

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[PFSard]

Reshoring has already begun; Ford, Fiat/ Chrysler, GM , Carrier. Just keep watching...

Reshoring has been occurring in the U.S. for years. Here's one article :

Record number of manufacturing jobs returning to America
Published: May 1, 2015 1:45 p.m. ET

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us...inally-outpaced-offshoring-in-2014-2015-05-01

Additionally, off-shoring has not been the major cause of reduced manufacturing employment in the U.S. :

Why robots, not trade, are behind so many factory job losses
11/02/16

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/265c...o-taking-us-factory-jobs-blame-robots-instead

 

[VoodooCLD]

I work in a bearing manufacturing plant in the U.S. The irony is that i'm not sure we'd be able to stay open if we didn't buy half of our supplies and tools from harbor freight.

 

[tdellenburg]

When I started in manufacturing 20 some odd years ago, as a tech, plants were heavy on low paid operators and light on moderately paid techs. The last tech job I had a few years ago had 1200 very high paid techs, and few low paid operators. Automation has not taken jobs, it has forced a retraining of the work force and increased their salary. Don't believe the ap, they have an agenda to push.

 

[sberry]

I was the welding contractor in a setup to a sub for Delco about 20+ yrs ago, absolutely pitiful. Management didn't know a single fuggin thing about it 300 people, 3 poor maintenance people didn't know a volt from a v belt.
I have been in quite a few plants, the Hobart/Miller of the world are rare and most are sorry with pathetic management usually headed by a BIL with some kind of business degree where the secretary pretty much runs the place.

 

[oldtools]

Reshoring has been occurring in the U.S. for years. Here's one article :

Record number of manufacturing jobs returning to America
Published: May 1, 2015 1:45 p.m. ET

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us...inally-outpaced-offshoring-in-2014-2015-05-01

Additionally, off-shoring has not been the major cause of reduced manufacturing employment in the U.S. :

Why robots, not trade, are behind so many factory job losses
11/02/16

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/265c...o-taking-us-factory-jobs-blame-robots-instead

Blaming robots for job loss won't get you into office (as well as speaking the truth).

 

[Parrothead]

I was the welding contractor in a setup to a sub for Delco about 20+ yrs ago, absolutely pitiful. Management didn't know a single fuggin thing about it 300 people, 3 poor maintenance people didn't know a volt from a v belt.
I have been in quite a few plants, the Hobart/Miller of the world are rare and most are sorry with pathetic management usually headed by a BIL with some kind of business degree where the secretary pretty much runs the place.

My favorite maintenance quote of all time "I fixed it, now how do you turn it on?"

I seriously thought he was joking. It had a safety on it where you had a key that needed turned(to open or close the control panel), a button that needed pushed and the start button. How he didn't know this was befuddling to me after fixing THE CONTROL PANEL!

 

[greg9719]

Pretty sure his business will remain successful for decades.. there's no reason it wouldn't. If items don't sell, they get removed from shelves.. they "create" their own line of tools from what's available. It's not like they are carrying someone else "collection" and taking a chance on many items at once.

To be quite honest, I'm very surprised someone else hasnt copied this business model. There's obviously room for another big retail chain similar to this.

Northern tool has a similar business model.

Yet they don't appear to be quite as successful.

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[Joe Mamma]

Likewise, it doesn't do your argument any good to willfully misrepresent the price of truck tools.

How about a 6" ruler on sale for . . . $27.69

or a 12" ruler on sale for . . . $42.85

You should check out this video for a few laughs:

I guess I'm in the minority here. But the article in the original post makes me feel better about spending money at Harbor Freight.

Joe Mamma

 

[Fcvapor05]

How about a 6" ruler on sale for . . . $27.69

or a 12" ruler on sale for . . . $42.85

You should check out this video for a few laughs:

I guess I'm in the minority here. But the article in the original post makes me feel better about spending money at Harbor Freight.

Joe Mamma

Have you ever bought a quality stainless steel scale? They don't cost $1.

 

[shortykorte]

I wonder if China complains about the imported steel and recycled metal....from the U.S.?

 

[tdellenburg]

I wonder if China complains about the imported steel and recycled metal....from the U.S.?

If they don't they should!!! Every country should look inward first and only source from others what they cannot provide for themselves.

 

[dnschmidt]

Everybody looks backwards to "the good old days." Well fellas they're over. An idiot making $40 an hour in a steel mill is an artifact of history and not indicative of the way the future will be. Education and training is what's required. When I look at coal miners put out of work I say to myself, do you really like going underground? When I lived in Pittsburgh during grade school we took a field trip to the US Bureau of Mines experimental mine in PA. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there. These people consider themselves coal miners when in fact they should consider themselves members of the power generation industry as that's what all the coal is used to produce. If you can dig coal can you not be retrained to install solar panels or make solar cells? If you can crawl underground can you not scale a wind turbine to install or repair it? Trump, makes impossible to fulfill promises, I will admit that I do hate him but, in this case all politicians do so this is no cardinal sin on his part, and the desperate eat it up. In their hearts they must realize it's all ********. Factory jobs as they were previously known aren't coming back. A robot is going to be bolting the fender to a car not a factory worker.

Training, and I don't mean engineering university as that's useful to only at most 20% of the population at best is what is so badly needed. The robot fixers will do very well. In Germany they have this figured out. In the U. S. we're clueless.

 

[OutsideMachinist]

Have you ever bought a quality stainless steel scale? They don't cost $1.

Yep. Those snapon ones look just like they are starret made. Starret ones are $20+. I have some other usa ones as well that are nice for 10-15 dollars, but the starrett ones are better and worth it in my opinion. If you use it every day its worth 20 some bucks for a 6'' scale.

People can always get the cheap empire or hf ones for $1.99 and get by fine with it. Thats ok too. I have some of those also. Mostly use them for the decimal equivalents on the back.

 

[jeeper46]

Everybody looks backwards to "the good old days." Well fellas they're over. An idiot making $40 an hour in a steel mill is an artifact of history and not indicative of the way the future will be. Education and training is what's required. When I look at coal miners put out of work I say to myself, do you really like going underground? When I lived in Pittsburgh during grade school we took a field trip to the US Bureau of Mines experimental mine in PA. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of there. These people consider themselves coal miners when in fact they should consider themselves members of the power generation industry as that's what all the coal is used to produce. If you can dig coal can you not be retrained to install solar panels or make solar cells? If you can crawl underground can you not scale a wind turbine to install or repair it? Trump, makes impossible to fulfill promises, I will admit that I do hate him but, in this case all politicians do so this is no cardinal sin on his part, and the desperate eat it up. In their hearts they must realize it's all ********. Factory jobs as they were previously known aren't coming back. A robot is going to be bolting the fender to a car not a factory worker.

Training, and I don't mean engineering university as that's useful to only at most 20% of the population at best is what is so badly needed. The robot fixers will do very well. In Germany they have this figured out. In the U. S. we're clueless.

Have you actually been inside of an American Production or Assembly plant in the last 10 years or so?

 

[dnschmidt]

I was in a 4,000 wafer per week semiconductor manufacturing plant for 30 years and we used robots as much as possible. We even had robots move the wafers (our product) from bay to bay. So yes I have been in an American Production plant within the last 10 years.

 

[jeeper46]

I was in a 4,000 wafer per week semiconductor manufacturing plant for 30 years and we used robots as much as possible. We even had robots move the wafers (our product) from bay to bay. So yes I have been in an American Production plant within the last 10 years.

I guess I should have clarified that. I meant an American Auto assembly or powertrain plant. Robots everywhere, robotic hi-los moving stock, etc, etc.. Plenty of "robot fixers",too-they are called "Skilled Trades". The plants are nowhere as backwards as you seem to envision.

 

[MWEric]

Northern tool has a similar business model.

Yet they don't appear to be quite as successful.

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Because they charge 3 times the price for the same ****.

 

[L.Cheapo]

How about a 6" ruler on sale for . . . $27.69

or a 12" ruler on sale for . . . $42.85

You should check out this video for a few laughs:

I guess I'm in the minority here. But the article in the original post makes me feel better about spending money at Harbor Freight.

Joe Mamma

Priced a Starrett rule lately?

.

 

[zendriver]

How about a 6" ruler on sale for . . . $27.69



or a 12" ruler on sale for . . . $42.85



You should check out this video for a few laughs:

I guess I'm in the minority here. But the article in the original post makes me feel better about spending money at Harbor Freight.



Joe Mamma

I had to punch out on the video after a bit because the guy appeared drunk, but he makes the point.

SA makes quality products but one always pays a lot more "for the name"


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