Hazet 90 Tooth Ratchet

[Wamsutta]

Does their new 90 tooth version come apart? Somebody on YouTube said the new Hazet ratchet is a F.O.D. ratchet that doesn't come apart.

Previous 30 tooth version: Hazet 8816P

New 90 tooth version: Hazet 8816HP

 

[Dave455]

It can be thought of as a ”FOD” ratchet in that there are no screws to fall out, but they do come apart.

There is a circlip on the square drive side that needs to be removed.

Repair kits are available. You can see the circlip.

 

[threewood]

As stated above, circlip retention

 

[tamaraw]

FOD just means "foreign object damage". Most aviation tools have to adhere to a standard where there can't be loose parts (ex: exposed screws) that can potentially back out and get lost in the work. The Hazet HP series is FOD compliant but also certainly rebuildable.

Here is the rebuild kit for the 3/8" HP models, you can find it if you just click the "parts" button on the link that you first posted:

Ersatzteil-Satz Knarr-Rad - HAZET Ersatzteil-Shop

HAZET PRODUKT 8816HP/11

web.hazet.de

Comparison between the legacy 30T model and the new 90T:

And a video of someone rebuilding a well-used 8816HP:

 

[Dave455]

FOD just means "foreign object damage". Most aviation tools have to adhere to a standard where there can't be loose parts (ex: exposed screws) that can potentially back out and get lost in the work. The Hazet HP series is FOD compliant but also certainly rebuildable.

Here is the rebuild kit for the 3/8" HP models, you can find it if you just click the "parts" button on the link that you first posted:

Ersatzteil-Satz Knarr-Rad - HAZET Ersatzteil-Shop

HAZET PRODUKT 8816HP/11

web.hazet.de

Comparison between the legacy 30T model and the new 90T:

And a video of someone rebuilding a well-used 8816HP:

It makes sense, but I’ve never seen that requirement in any of the aviation tool spec’s.

There’s a lot of stuff about sockets and wrenches - how close fitting, how big, how much torque etc, and there are things about handles being resistant to hydraulic fluid, not allowing retention of contaminants etc (i.e, hard handle), but I’ve never seen anything about ratchets not having screws.

The most popular ratchet among aircraft engineers (certainly in the U.K.) is undoubtedly the standard Snap On, not the riveted “fod” version.

There are some applications (e.g. working on engines) where engineers will tend to favour a regular screwdriver, rather than a bit driver, for exactly this reason, but I think that’s just a result of being sensible.

I don’t own a Hazet HiPer ratchet, but I’m pretty sure they don’t meet the specs anyway, on account of the soft handle.

Having said that I’ve seen folks using, and even selling to the industry, tools that obviously don’t meet the specs.

 

[AEAdam]

It makes sense, but I’ve never seen that requirement in any of the aviation tool spec’s.

There’s a lot of stuff about sockets and wrenches - how close fitting, how big, how much torque etc, and there are things about handles being resistant to hydraulic fluid, not allowing retention of contaminants etc (i.e, hard handle), but I’ve never seen anything about ratchets not having screws.

The most popular ratchet among aircraft engineers (certainly in the U.K.) is undoubtedly the standard Snap On, not the riveted “fod” version.

There are some applications (e.g. working on engines) where engineers will tend to favour a regular screwdriver, rather than a bit driver, for exactly this reason, but I think that’s just a result of being sensible.

I don’t own a Hazet HiPer ratchet, but I’m pretty sure they don’t meet the specs anyway, on account of the soft handle.

Having said that I’ve seen folks using, and even selling to the industry, tools that obviously don’t meet the specs.

We use std chrome finished snap on for aircraft and spacecraft. The toolbox on the ISS is std snap on IIRC. The tools they use on spacewalks are different.

I have no jet or rocket engine experience. Maybe they use something special..

 

[1cargarage]

We use std chrome finished snap on for aircraft and spacecraft. The toolbox on the ISS is std snap on IIRC. The tools they use on spacewalks are different.

I have no jet or rocket engine experience. Maybe they use something special..

Having the ISS on your Snap-On Truck route probably seemed cool at first, but I bet the lustre wore off after a couple weeks - that's a hell of a commute for one stop on the route.

 

[AEAdam]

The guys on ISS do nothing but ***** that the truck hasn’t come around since they paid off their tools.

 

[Dave455]

We use std chrome finished snap on for aircraft and spacecraft. The toolbox on the ISS is std snap on IIRC. The tools they use on spacewalks are different.

I have no jet or rocket engine experience. Maybe they use something special..

The ISS “toolbox” looked to be custom made storage drawers.

The tools are standard aerospace grade stuff - lots of Snap On, bit of Proto. Looks like 1/4“ and 3/8” drive, with a choice of 6 point metric sockets and 12 point SAE.

Amazing isn’t it - there must have been huge sums spent on the ISS, everything custom built, and they still can’t get all the fasteners either SAE or Metric.

 

[MarcSeattle]

Boeing still uses inch fasteners. How about Airbus?

 

[Dave455]

Boeing still uses inch fasteners. How about Airbus?

SAE fasteners with metric designations.

The A330 (probably some others) incorporates a couple of Whitworth too, also with metric designations…!

I don’t think it’s a question of “still” using SAE fasteners. It’s what the aerospace industry uses. The only reason the U.S. automobile industry switched was to save money on bought in fasteners, but aerospace fasteners are in a different league spec wise, so there aren’t the savings.

 

[tamaraw]

Amazing isn’t it - there must have been huge sums spent on the ISS, everything custom built, and they still can’t get all the fasteners either SAE or Metric.

"International Space Station"

Western aerospace is fairly standardized on imperial sizes but I believe soviet stuff is metric and I assume a fair bit of scientific equipment up there is as well.

 

[merkyworks]

There is only ONE fastener standard that has gone to the moon and back, the one the only SAE

 

[threewood]

These were off of the shuttle Atlantis since we are talking aerospace.

 

[MarcSeattle]

The Society of Automotive Engineers converted to metric something like 30 years ago as I recall. I looked this up: the SAE's current metric policy is, "Operating Boards shall not use any weights and measures system other than metric (SI), except when conversion is not practical..." Link

Maybe we should just call it "inch." Or "the measurement system to use if you want to export and make tons of money selling to 95% of the world's population rather than merely 5%."

 

[merkyworks]

my vote is changing to "Freedom units" lol

 

[Dave455]

The Society of Automotive Engineers converted to metric something like 30 years ago as I recall. I looked this up: the SAE's current metric policy is, "Operating Boards shall not use any weights and measures system other than metric (SI), except when conversion is not practical..." Link

Maybe we should just call it "inch." Or "the measurement system to use if you want to export and make tons of money selling to 95% of the world's population rather than merely 5%."

You can’t really call them “inch” because you would need to differentiate from Whitworth.

Prior to the late 50’s the threads used were called “National” (National Fine, National Coarse etc) in the U.S. and “American National” elsewhere. Since the late 50’s, when the slightly different “Unified” threads were jointly adopted by the U.S. the U.K. and Canada, the threads have technically been “Unified Coarse” “Unified Fine” etc.

In the U.K. we call the fasteners for these threads ”A/F” short for “Across Flats” to differentiate from Whitworth designations, which relate to the bolt size.

My Grandfather, who was working on U.S. vehicles from the 1940’s, never referred to them as anything other than ”SAE”, that’s how the majority of Americans refer to them, and that’s a term I’m comfortable using!

The quote from the SAE refers to SI (Systeme International) in any case. While being a standard for units in the scientific community, and while any thread designated in SI units (metric) is sometimes called an SI thread, that isn’t strictly true.

SI threads were older metric threadforms. They were used in many european countries, and the U.K. adopted (but never used) an SI metric threadform as far back as the 40’s. This is where some of the, now unusual, metric wrench sizes (23mm comes to mind) originate from. These SI threads are now obsolete, having been replaced by ISO Metric.

 

[F-22]

There is only ONE fastener standard that has gone to the moon and back, the one the only SAE

(but all SAE sizes are ultimately defined by the metric system)

 

[M635_Guy]

Having the ISS on your Snap-On Truck route probably seemed cool at first, but I bet the lustre wore off after a couple weeks - that's a hell of a commute for one stop on the route.

I was talking to a team from NASA that supported the ISS, and they made the joke that they had the most-expensive shipping costs of anyone I'd ever meet: $10K a pound. That was many years ago, and guess it's way worse these days...

Amazing isn’t it - there must have been huge sums spent on the ISS, everything custom built, and they still can’t get all the fasteners either SAE or Metric.

As someone else said, blame Europe and Russia for their use of a coherent and science-based system of measure...

There is only ONE fastener standard that has gone to the moon and back, the one the only SAE

We should really put a stick of bacon in its mouth to complete the picture...

 

[cmandp]

Trying doing any calculations or design work with Standard units for mass or energy, lbm/slug and BTU etc... You'll gladly go back to metric 'Merica or not, it's much less confusing.

 

[MarcSeattle]

You can’t really call them “inch” because you would need to differentiate from Whitworth.

Yes we can. So few people care about Whitworth. Is there any significant engineering project done with it? It's only used on a small island in the north sea by people who drive on the left and measure weight in stones, and even British mechanics don't like it.

 

[Ilikeike]

We should really put a stick of bacon in its mouth to complete the picture...

That would be cool,
Also Americas rifle on the flag, like Mozambique and the AK.

 

[Dave455]

Yes we can. So few people care about Whitworth. Is there any significant engineering project done with it? It's only used on a small island in the north sea by people who drive on the left and measure weight in stones, and even British mechanics don't like it.

People may not care about Whitworth, but you still need to call them something, and SAE something different!

And you will find it’s used worldwide even today - BSP is probably the most common single pipe thread!

 

[MarcSeattle]

It's hard to call them SAE when the Society of Automotive Engineers doesn't like that, and the Society went away from inch units decades ago.

How about calling them GUs? Grandpappy Units. That would make my grandfather laugh. He totally got the need for metric although everything he worked on was inch back then and I suspect he was happy that he didn't have to personally use metric. GU. I think I'll start using it. We need a little symbol.

 

[Dave455]

Yes we can. So few people care about Whitworth. Is there any significant engineering project done with it? It's only used on a small island in the north sea by people who drive on the left and measure weight in stones, and even British mechanics don't like it.

Now, significant engineering project in Whitworth. Hmm, I can’t think of any.. oh yes, maybe one or two…

 

[Pinemarten]

Metric is handy for scientific use. I do just fine using Metric and SAE tools. And yes, even if the SAE folks are now using the metric system to measure now, billions of fasteners are in use utilizing the inch based SAE standards.

I am in no way exceptional, and I can measure, or think in metric, and inches (either fractional or decimal). When things get small, I prefer thousandths of an inch to millimeters or units like sheet metal gauge. I'm used to AWG for wires, and never think of the millimeter size of wires.

Oh, by the way, no manufacturer of aircraft will ever change an existing design from SAE fasteners to metric. The engineering costs would be nearly as much as designing a new aircraft for no benefit.

 

[MarcSeattle]

Oh, by the way, no manufacturer of aircraft will ever change an existing design from SAE fasteners to metric. The engineering costs would be nearly as much as designing a new aircraft for no benefit.

Deere has been converting and is nearly complete. Others have done it. It's pretty much necessary for international trade outside of a few very narrow fields. It's funny though how in some areas inch measurements are the world standard. I understand that sheet steel is most often measured in inches because after WW2 the U.S. engineers helped set up the steel mills in Europe and Japan.

Boeing can do whatever they want with their money. Use inch, use metric, use whitworth, use cubits. Their money, their choice. That doesn't dictate what any of us call the measurement system, that's SAE's role and SAE says inch is not "SAE". For me, I'm sticking with GU.

 

[tamaraw]

Oh, by the way, no manufacturer of aircraft will ever change an existing design from SAE fasteners to metric. The engineering costs would be nearly as much as designing a new aircraft for no benefit.

So, anyway...

 

[F-22]

I understand that sheet steel is most often measured in inches because after WW2 the U.S. engineers helped set up the steel mills in Europe and Japan.

Over here in Europe you definitely get most sheet metal in milimeter thicknesses.

Inch is used for spark plug sizes and plumbing stuff. Like plumbing hoses. That said, I think it is still all based on some british standard plumbing sizes, not on a US standard which is a bit different. The threads are definitely different (different angle makes them seal better).

 

[AEAdam]

Just realize, it’s not so easy. My, not that funny joke, is that metric is for countries that were bombed flat and rebuilt after WW2.

We still have pre war machines operating in industry in the US. Not so easy cutting metric threads on lathes with inch lead screws. Ditto, before the advent of CNC, mills pretty much had all inch screws. Not so easy to take a 2mm cut. For modernized industries in the US, where all the tools are new or all CNC, metric is easier.

For aerospace, the fasteners we use have been tested and qualified to English units. The holes we drill, the torques we use, all the engineering units, material and fastener allowables, test results are all pounds and inches. We’re not stubborn. There is a significant cost associated with switching units and no obvious benefit for our customers. They actually would also be negatively impacted.

The US uniquely industrialized before WW2 and have in many ways continued to grow. Most other countries rebuilt from the ashes after WW2.

 

[bpwoodworking]

Exactly, There is no benefit for anyone who already owns two sets of tools or has a set of engineering standards for SAE or has otherwise setup for SAE.

Outside of that, neither system seems better or easier.

 

[F-22]

We still have pre war machines operating in industry in the US. Not so easy cutting metric threads on lathes with inch lead screws. Ditto, before the advent of CNC, mills pretty much had all inch screws. Not so easy to take a 2mm cut. For modernized industries in the US, where all the tools are new or all CNC, metric is easier.

Pretty much all 60's metric industrial lathes I've seen (mostly German and French and Italian designs) all cut SAE threads. On smaller ones you just switch a couple gears to have the SAE feeds (or a couple other setups too like whitworth). Since the late 60's most of the more serious larger lathes also had an extra gearbox for convenience, so you could just switch between them without swapping gears.

Genuinely curious, were US lathes not designed with that in mind? The lead screw pitch does not really matter, it only depends on how fast it is turning, but I guess the gearbox may have never been designed to alter it so it would be very expensive to switch over. But that seems just very odd to me, surely even back then the manufacturers had to consider versatility?

But CNCs are around for half a century now too. I can hardly believe any notable US manufacturing is done on pre war machines today. Here in my small country, 80's and 90's CNCs are being discarded a lot already. Considering how rich the USA is, surely proper manufacturing is all done on modern machines. I know Haas is extremely popular and affordable and is an American company, for example.

neither system seems better or easier.

I fully agree that switching completely and instantly for the US would have loads of downsides and not many advantages.

But saying the metric system is not easier to use is just being ignorant. That was already determined in the 18th century. It's systematic and based on our knowledge, while the old standards are based on arbitrary sizes which complicates any kind of more complex usage.

 

[Pinemarten]

So, anyway...

Yeah.................I'd be shocked if anything on that is not a stand alone design, to accommodate Soviet manufacturing. The key point is the Russians weren't building a B-29 clone in SAE and then switched over to metric. And, warplanes do not have to undergo the same certification process of civilian designs.

The whole Metric is superior to SAE or vice versa argument is silly. It is just two systems, each with strong points and weaker ones. You may want to ask some Canadian farmers how converting the existing land surveys to Metric worked out.

 

[cherrybomb]

Way back in the day,when things were much simpler,I believe when Gerald Ford was President,there was discussion of U.S.A switching over.That was a time when if you had a car that had metric and SAE you were a bit puzzled and started expanding your tools,hoping one way or the other.Some how the USA thought the World would see their view.And the discussion of the better system continues.

 

[MarcSeattle]

Yeah, I lost my metric virginity with a Honda motocross bike.

 

[AEAdam]

England never completely switched.

I’m admitting this is nuts: but I think converting from inches to mm isn’t my idea of metric. So metric plywood for example should be 1000x2000mm and available in thicknesses divisible by 5. But it’s not. Sometimes stuff is metric metric. Sometimes it’s imperial converted to metric units. To me that’s just not really….

I guess the thing I like about metric is you get away from fractions. But if you wind up with std 137mm sizes, that’s doesn’t seem neater to me.