Heat Pump

[jshillin]

Good Morning All!!

This one is going to be a little long...

My house has separate heat pumps for upstairs and downstairs. I replaced my downstairs unit about 6 years ago. A lot of info on that is in this thread: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/heat-pumps.383762/
Just to note, the Amana has been great, no issues, lower electric bills and it's so much more comfortable downstairs.

OK, so my upstairs heat pump hasn't worked well for years. I've had several HVAC companies out, but it's a cheap unit that was put in before I bought the house in '08. I don't use it for heat unless it's over 35 degrees or it doesn't heat and it couldn't keep up with A/C last summer. Unfortunately the owner retired from the company I used 6 years ago and sold it to another local company. I thought for sure that the son would take over the business, but that didn't happen.

I had the company that bought them come out and give me a quote. They measured everything and did all of the normal checks, so I thought they seemed pretty good. The salesman came out the next day. He had 7 Levels of quotes with no real information. "Prestige", "Premier", "Elite", "Economy", etc... Didn't give brand names, model's, SEER, HSPF or anything. It did list the warranty and talk about the MERV 16+ESA filters.

My upstairs is a good bit smaller than my downstairs, so the heatload calculated out to needing a 2 ton unit instead of 3 ton like downstairs. I don't need a new trunk for upstairs, don't need a humidifier added or anything else. The only thing that I asked for extra was to either enlarge the small return or add a 2nd return. I had a 2nd return added downstairs as well. After a lot of pressing, the middle of the line system they quoted was basically the same Amana unit as I have downstairs and that sounded great to me. Then the quote was north of $20k. I can see it if it were something crazy or hard to deal with, but it's about as straightforward as it gets. Air handler is right in the attic, it's a straight shot up stairs and then the opening goes right into a plywood covered attic to set the air handler. The outside unit is right behind my house and you can drive a truck right up to it. The salesman figured out quick that I've spent a lot of time around HVAC in the past and his game wasn't working. Nice guy, I talked to him for a while and he understood that I'm not paying $6k for the high end filter, replacing existing ductwork with the same size ductwork, etc that they planned to do.

I had a different company come yesterday to measure and check everything for a quote. I've saw this companies work before and all of the reviews I read are top notch. I spoke to him for a while and he's going to get me a few quotes later today. He's quoting a similar Amana Inverter, Lennox, Bosch, one I'm forgetting and he brought up GREE. He said they sell a lot of Gree Inverters and haven't had any trouble with them. I started reading about them last night and had no idea they were as large as they are and that they build parts for a lot of the big name companies. I'm not talking about putting in a mini split, I'm going with a ducted inverter setup. The Gree does use side outlet outdoor units that look like a large unit from a mini split, but the more I read the more I see companies going this route.

I'm not opposed to it, but was hoping to get some feedback from the masses here on Gree as well as anything else I should be looking at. Truthfully, I'm leaning toward Amana already because this one has treated me well, but not opposed to anything else.

 

[manwithtools]

This post probably belongs in the HVAC forum to get more answers. I'll comment that I just had a ducted mini split system installed (1.5 ton), it is made by Midea and marketed under the Tempstar brand. Media and Gree probably make more HVAC equipment than any other companies out there. The Gree unit you were shown is an inverter mini-split system. It uses a conventional looking air handler inside and a min split looking compressor outside. The advantage to these system is the will make heat down to -5 or so. They are very efficient as well. I'd recommend that type of system over the conventional heat pump for sure.

 

[jeepxj]

I dont think you'll find a huge difference between the two. its really about parts. what does the local company have access to quickly parts wise.

 

[jshillin]

The HVAC company came back right at $10k for a Gree Inverter setup installed.

FLEXX36HP230V1BH Indoor Air Handler

FLEXX36HP230V1AO Outdoor Condenser

He quoted a Bosch inverter too, but I told him I still want an Amana quote and should get that early next week.

 

[walta]

The HVAC company came back right at $10k for a Gree Inverter setup installed.

FLEXX36HP230V1BH Indoor Air Handler

FLEXX36HP230V1AO Outdoor Condenser

He quoted a Bosch inverter too, but I told him I still want an Amana quote and should get that early next week.

I look at the air handler and notice it was rated energy star NO seems like a red flag.

I did not see any back up strip heaters. When the HP goes down the strip heater make it an inconvenience and not a crisis.

I think you should only consider unit that have submitted to the NEEP index of Cold Climate Air Source Heat Pump (ccASHP) Product List. I see the Gree products. Look at the COP numbers

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/51567/7/25000/95/7500/0///0

ASHP

ashp.neep.org

Walta

 

[Yankeefarmer]

For the little bit that it may be worth to you, this is the end of the 3rd winter with my MR Cool Universal (which I understand to be a Gree Flexx with the MR Cool nameplate). I self installed it. It has met all my expectations, and has been completely reliable. It is in my shop building, not my dwelling, and I use it like conventional wisdom says you shouldn’t use a heat pump: It warms the shop to 61 deg F each morning, then sets back to 46 deg F at supper time for the overnight hours. I see no point in using expensive CT electricity (north of 30 cents/kw-hr) to maintain high temps in an unoccupied building. In our coldest months, it has added a little less than $100/month to our electric bill. I should note I’m using a larger unit than you need, since I’m using the 4-5 ton model. I have it turned down to the 4 ton setting now, and no heat strips Installed.

 

[danski0224]

I should note I’m using a larger unit than you need, since I’m using the 4-5 ton model.

This is the only reason why you are able to do the temperature setback that you are doing.

And the only reason that it works (or, seems to work) is because of the inverter technology.

I would suspect that you are not saving much at all. Everything in the shop cools off, then everything has to be warmed up again. Something that monitors power usage would need to be wired in to actually test the theory.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

This is the only reason why you are able to do the temperature setback that you are doing.

And the only reason that it works (or, seems to work) is because of the inverter technology.

I would suspect that you are not saving much at all. Everything in the shop cools off, then everything has to be warmed up again. Something that monitors power usage would need to be wired in to actually test the theory.

Let’s not derail this thread on the rabbit hole you just created. I described my use case so the OP could judge for (I presume) himself how relevant it was to his situation.

Suffice to say, I have 24/7/365 logs of shop temp data- and thus, heat pump run time- that satisfies me that the savings are real.

 

[fitter30]

All heat pumps in heat are rated at 47° and at 17° the factory has published outputs at different temps to-22° for hyper heating units. The contractor is just as important as the brand puts money into training and has a relationship with the distributor. I Don't forget federal and electric company rebates.

 

[firebirdparts]

….

 

[pcmeiners]

"Didn't give brand names, model's, SEER, HSPF or anything.

Brace yourself, your about to be screwed if you go for this. Translated this generally means the supplier will give you the brand and model with the highest profit margin. Your SEER, HSPF and quality concerns are way down his list.

Why is this thread not in heating and A/C sub forum?

 

[GirchyGirchy]

Heat pumps ****.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I look at the air handler and notice it was rated energy star NO seems like a red flag.

I did not see any back up strip heaters. When the HP goes down the strip heater make it an inconvenience and not a crisis.

I think you should only consider unit that have submitted to the NEEP index of Cold Climate Air Source Heat Pump (ccASHP) Product List. I see the Gree products. Look at the COP numbers

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/

https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/51567/7/25000/95/7500/0///0

ASHP

ashp.neep.org

Walta

for comparison, here's one I have installed:

ASHP

ashp.neep.org

it's actually an LG inverter unit according to the PCB art, "made by" Allied Air Enterprises LLC, a Lennox International Inc. Company.

pretty happy with it. definitely works down to -15F.

I really don't care what units do at 47F. I need almost no heat near 50F. I do care about performance in cold snaps!

I'm disappointed the list doesn't have the air-to-water co2 or propane heat pumps. that's where the real magic happens.

FWIW my home needs roughly 45kBTU at -15F. there's no single unit on the market that can do that. i could stack 3x sanden CO2 units, using two 5 ton R410a ASHPs is LMAO. my air handler doesn't have 10 tons of airflow (max of 3 ton), nevermind the ductwork.

the CO2 units are a viable way to get there, if they had a single unit with adequate capacity. I'm hoping the R290 units will be serious contenders.

 

[Yankeefarmer]

Heat pumps ****.

Only on the air inlet sides. The outlets blow.

 

[danski0224]

He had 7 Levels of quotes with no real information. "Prestige", "Premier", "Elite", "Economy", etc... Didn't give brand names, model's, SEER, HSPF or anything.

Brand and model series should be disclosed. Capacity? I never disclose that.

SEER will vary based upon equipment selection. Condenser, evaporator, fan.

The only way to *KNOW* is with an AHRI match certificate or manufacturer tested/rated combos (Bosch has this information on their website). If you are shooting for tax incentives, AHRI match is crucial.

You will NOT get the "rated" SEER if it is not installed properly and/or airflow is not right.

 

[walta]

Heat pumps ****.

Why do you think that?

My heat pump provided 100% of the heat my home requires when it is above +6°F and the electric strips supplement what little is needed below that.

Maybe you had a bad experience with low quality equipment that was poorly installed long ago. Perhaps it is time to reconsider as 55% of heating systems sold last year were HPs and the graph is going straight up.

The US Saw Record Percentages Of Heat Pump & Electric Water Heater Sales In 2023 - CleanTechnica

Heat pumps for space heating and electric water heaters have set new records, and gas equipment continued to decline as a percentage of new sales.

cleantechnica.com

Walta

 

[jshillin]

The owner of the company called me on Saturday, he said they would get me a quote on the Amana inverter early this week. He answered all of my questions and didn't push anything or give BS answers. I'm definitely going with this company and definitely going with another inverter, just not sure if it will be Gree or Amana at this point.

 

[walta]

Will your new system have electric strip as back up?

Walta

 

[jshillin]

Will your new system have electric strip as back up?

Walta

Yes, it will have one installed, but both heat pumps work so low into cold temperatures that it should only be needed in an emergency.

 

[azmodela]

The HVAC company came back right at $10k for a Gree Inverter setup installed.

FLEXX36HP230V1BH Indoor Air Handler

FLEXX36HP230V1AO Outdoor Condenser

He quoted a Bosch inverter too, but I told him I still want an Amana quote and should get that early next week.

What was the Bosch quote, out of curiosity?

 

[walta]

Yes, it will have one installed, but both heat pumps work so low into cold temperatures that it should only be needed in an emergency.

My guess is in PA you are likely to see temps below zero F for a day or 3 most years. Unless you HP is hugely oversized (not recommended) your strips will get some use. My strips are locked out when it is above 6°F

There is a new technology call vapor injection compressor that allows the HP to operate at lower temps. Every company has trademarked a different name for it. IE Hyper Heat. Not every unit labeled as cold climate has vapor injection

Note most systems will energize the strips during defrost cycles for my system about 3 minutes every 3 hours of so.

Mitsubishi Hyper Heat vs. Mitsubishi Standard Heat Pump: Which One Sho

Are you struggling to decide whether or not Mitsubishi Hyper Heat is worth it worth you? In this article we'll explain the differences between the two types of outdoor units and hopefully give you a reason to choose one or the other. Need further guidance? Reach out to us via chat, email, or call.

gotductless.com

Walt

 

[jshillin]

What was the Bosch quote, out of curiosity?

Bosch 18 SEER Standard Inverter HP 3 tons 10 Year Part Warranty
Bosch 2 Stage ECM20 AHU3 900 - 1300 CFM's 10 Year Part Warranty

Total $11,476.00

 

[jshillin]

My guess is in PA you are likely to see temps below zero F for a day or 3 most years. Unless you HP is hugely oversized (not recommended) your strips will get some use. My strips are locked out when it is above 6°F

There is a new technology call vapor injection compressor that allows the HP to operate at lower temps. Every company has trademarked a different name for it. IE Hyper Heat. Not every unit labeled as cold climate has vapor injection

Note most systems will energize the strips during defrost cycles for my system about 3 minutes every 3 hours of so.

Mitsubishi Hyper Heat vs. Mitsubishi Standard Heat Pump: Which One Sho

Are you struggling to decide whether or not Mitsubishi Hyper Heat is worth it worth you? In this article we'll explain the differences between the two types of outdoor units and hopefully give you a reason to choose one or the other. Need further guidance? Reach out to us via chat, email, or call.

gotductless.com

Walt

Thanks for that info!

I'm just a few miles from the Maryland line, so not too far North in the state. This heat pump on heats/cools my upstairs, so this one will be worked more in the summer than the winter. I'll have to look into that vapor injection compressor, that's a new one to me.

 

[jshillin]

They hit me back at $24k on the Amana I was looking at... There is no way I'm going to pay more than double and will likely be going with the Gree setup.

The guy said the AHRI qualifies for the $2k tax credit.

Do you think for a 3 Ton Gree Inverter, a fair price installed would be $10,730 ? This is more than I paid for my Amana communicating inverter, but that was 6 years ago. Quotes are all over the place. They said it would be $350 extra if they need to add a return or increase size of existing return. This is the what is on the install list:

FLEXX36HP230V1BH Indoor Air Handler
FLEXX36HP230V1AO Outdoor Condenser (3 Ton)
A5-10 KW Kit
Non- Fused Disconnect
1/2" UV Rated Whip Heat Pump Surge Protector
Gree Plastic Pad
Gree Risers
Work Station
OverFlow Pan Safety
Supply Transitions Ez-Trap with Float Safety with min PVC
Misc Materials Level I

 

[theoldwizard1]

Heat pumps ****.

That is true for the old ones. New ones are quite good !

 

[theoldwizard1]

My heat pump provided 100% of the heat my home requires when it is above +6°F and the electric strips supplement what little is needed below that.

Depending on how bad your winter electric bill is, you might want to replace what you have with a heat pump that supplies heat well below ZERO without a heat strip.

It might pay for itself in a few years.

 

[pcmeiners]

"It did list the warranty and talk about the MERV 16+ESA filters."
"They hit me back at $24k on the Amana"

As to the above "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with ********"
Sales personnel carry really big shovels .

I guess they are fishing for a sucker.

If your going to have a heating coil addition, why not get a hyper heat unity either Fujitsu or Mitsubishi

Why not do the install yourself ? Buy some tools, save big time.

​

 

[jshillin]

"If your going to have a heating coil addition, why not get a hyper heat unity either Fujitsu or Mitsubishi

Why not do the install yourself ? Buy some tools, save big time.

​

The added coil really doesn't cost much and wanted it just in case. Out of the HVAC companies I've spoke to so far, none of them deal with Fujitsu or Mitsubishi outside of mini splits.

I thought about trying to install myself, but HVAC is the one thing I haven't tried besides basic ductwork and thermostats. I pretty much work on anything and everything, except HVAC. I just never had an interest in it.

 

[jshillin]

Had a guy out today, he's going to quote me on a Daiken Fit and Trane inverter. I like that the Daiken Fit is communicating like my Amanda.
One more local company is coming out tomorrow of Friday, but he uses American Standard. I believe American Standard and Trane are basically the same. A lot less info on American Standard when doing searches.

 

[justinjoyal]

I sell and install Gree (both mini-splits and split systems.)

The one you're looking at is a solid performer and overall a great unit/system.

Here's some issues we ran into (they've apparently been fixed by the factory since) :

- Bad condenser fan motor : They had switched manufacturer for a while and the motors were troublesome.
- Defrost problem : A batch of units would not defrost long enough and would turn into a huge block of ice.

As for the inside unit, (actually the electric heat kits), there was a batch of bad sequencers that would **** out after a few months.

 

[jshillin]

I sell and install Gree (both mini-splits and split systems.)

The one you're looking at is a solid performer and overall a great unit/system.

Here's some issues we ran into (they've apparently been fixed by the factory since) :

- Bad condenser fan motor : They had switched manufacturer for a while and the motors were troublesome.
- Defrost problem : A batch of units would not defrost long enough and would turn into a huge block of ice.

As for the inside unit, (actually the electric heat kits), there was a batch of bad sequencers that would **** out after a few months.

Thanks for that info!

Right now I'm between the Daiken Fit/Goodman Side Discharge and Gree Flex. The quote on the Fit came back about $400 higher. I need to figure out if they qualify for the Tax Rebates though. I believe the Gree does, but can't tell if the Goodman qualifies.

Trying to way out Pro/Cons (One of the big ones is the Tax Rebate though)

Gree Flex - FLEXX36HP230V1AO / FLEXX36HP230V1BH
10 Year parts warranty
Inverter
Outside unit varies output, no change inside.
Uses old thermostat


Goodman Side Discharge/Daiken Fit - GSZS602410 / AHVE24BP1400
10 Year Parts and 10 Year Labor warranty
Inverter
Fully Communicating between HP, Air Handler and thermostat(similar to my Amana)
Variable speed air handler

 

[jshillin]

OK, sorry for beating a dead horse, but I think I might have it figured out. I can't tell for sure if this qualifies or if it doesn't for the $2000 tax credit.

Heat Pump: GSZS602410 (https://www.goodmanmfg.com/products/heat-pumps/gszs6)
Air Handler: AHVE24BP1400

I think it qualifies for the $2,000 Tax Credit for 2024. It's just a lot to look at to figure it out.

What it takes to qualify:

Energy Efficient Home Improvement Credit | Internal Revenue Service

If you make home improvements for energy efficiency, you may qualify for an annual tax credit up to $3,200.

www.irs.gov

Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers​

Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor for installation.

Qualified improvements include new:

• Electric or natural gas heat pumps
• Electric or natural gas heat pump water heaters
• Biomass stoves and boilers

https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal-tax-credits/air-source-heat-pumps



I attached the AHRI Certificate also.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[danski0224]

Any help is greatly appreciated.

The tax credit requirements are spelled out on the Energy Star page.

There is a minimum SEER or SEER2 rating and EER rating.

You may also have local utility incentives.

The attached AHRI certificate states that it "may qualify" for the tax credit.

 

[jshillin]

The tax credit requirements are spelled out on the Energy Star page.

There is a minimum SEER or SEER2 rating and EER rating.

You may also have local utility incentives.

The attached AHRI certificate states that it "may qualify" for the tax credit.

Thanks. The "may qualify" is the part that I don't get...

 

[danski0224]

Thanks. The "may qualify" is the part that I don't get...

The explanation is given in the fine print at the bottom of the certificate.

Sounds like too many variables between federal and local utility programs, so it's up to the person buying the equipment to verify that the requirements are met.

It's a pain.

You need to know the stuff I mentioned above, listed on the AHRI certificate and know the requirements that need to be met to qualify.

 

[pcmeiners]

"The "may qualify" is the part that I don't get.."

If it is not Energy Star qualified why would you even consider buying it? If not you can not get the $2000 federal credit or you PA utility rebate and lastly the unit may or may not be efficient
This year I gotthe $2000 federal credit and $2400 in PPL electric utility rebates (5 minisplits, 1 HP water heater).

 

[jshillin]

"The "may qualify" is the part that I don't get.."

If it is not Energy Star qualified why would you even consider buying it? If not you can not get the $2000 federal credit or you PA utility rebate and lastly the unit may or may not be efficient
This year I got the $2000 federal credit and $2400 in PPL electric utility rebates (5 minisplits, 1 hot water heater).

By the numbers, it doesn't make much sense. The Gree Flexx has lower SEER2, EER2 and HSPF2. It has the energy star seal, but the Goodman does not. I really like the communicating units like the Daiken/Goodman, but may end up with the Gree just because of the $2k rebate. I live in a town where the Borough supplies electric, so none of those other rebates pertain to us.

 

[jshillin]

I had a quote since my last post and a final quote coming by the end of the week. The last one was for just over $13k
Heat pump model: DZ6VSA2410
Air handler model: DFVE24BP1400
This one also includes replacing the line set, adding slim duct to cover it, larger return vent and return duct as well as running new wiring to the thermostat since it's communicating.

I've pretty much talked myself out of the Gree since they do not communicate and the air handler is just on or off. I really like how my downstairs unit will fluctuate fan speed and keeps everything much more comfortable.

 

[jshillin]

OK, I pulled the trigger on one and it's scheduled to be installed on Friday.

Heat Pump​	Daikin Fit DZ6VS Whole House Inverter Heat Pump DZ6VSA2410​
Air Handler​	Daikin DFVE Multi-Position Air Handler DFVE24BP1400​
AHRI # :	210435082
SEER2	17.3
EER2	10.1
Capacity	2 Ton

New Line Set, slim duct, communicating thermostat, larger return, larger return ducts, new outside pad, surge protector and cleaning the ductwork.

12 Year Part Warranty
12 Year Labor Warranty
12 Year heat pump replacement if compressor fails
Next Year service also included.

$12,600 total

 

[OldCarGuy]

Heat pumps ****.

I'm not a big fan of heat pumps either. Not being a professional HVAC technician. Simply my 60 years working on HVAC equipment. I went against my beliefs of purchasing a home without natural gas. Twenty-five years ago, I purchased my present home and acreage with the property having no natural gas,, and a four year old Trane 5 ton Heat Pump unit. Plus a stand alone 30' by 50' garage having an overhead propane fired heater with an unsightly big tank. Before signing the paper's I made sure that the local gas company would extend the 4” main gas line several miles to my house. Then committed thousands of dollars to have access to natural gas the next day after signing. That now provide dependable natural gas to the house and all my garages.

After living through a single winter of holy Hell from my wife's constant complaining that it was cold. I ripped off the huge 100 Amp electric resistance backup heating elements. And replaced with an internal fossil fuel makeup component to the Trane furnace. I increased the fan motor. And increased & extended the main heat duct to heat and cool a 500 square foot “three-season room” that the previous owner had built without heat or A/C. No complaints of cold in winter nor hot in summer since. While the combined electric and gas bills to heat and air condition 3,500' living space and a total of 8,000' of garages is no more than the cost of electric and propane of the past.

Seven years ago the Trane outside condenser unit died. I replaced it with a new $450.00 Guardian unit that was charged with nitrogen. Vacuumed and charged with my stash of R22 and has run great since.. For the past two years I've been looking for a new replacement condenser unit to have on hand as a spare. With no luck; but I do have a new R22 compressor on hand...