Heated Driveway

[HoosierBuddy]

Honest to God, I woke up this morning thinking about this and REALIZED that we are looking at this all wrong.

Rather than melt snow off your driveway, you need to prevent snow from being on your driveway. Further, it is easy to do this without ANY energy source (solar, gas, nuclear, wood, coal, power plant, etc.) AND the technology is proven and has been in widespread use for well over 100 years. All we have to do is steal the technology and apply it to a driveway.

And here is your solution my friends. Your HOA is going to LOVE this.

 

[csp]

I've had a north facing garage in Colorado since 1996. I shovel it before it turns to ice, problem solved. I should kick myself though, because my last home was my first with a north facing driveway and I hated it. Then I built the next home with the same stupid situation.

 

[rlitman]

I've had a north facing garage in Colorado since 1996. I shovel it before it turns to ice, problem solved. I should kick myself though, because my last home was my first with a north facing driveway and I hated it. Then I built the next home with the same stupid situation.

All you need to do is pick it up and ship it to the southern hemisphere.

 

[Coloshaver]

Thanks for the ideas and information. Here are some points I left out:
- I do try to snow blow/shovel as much and as soon as I can.
- I'm not looking for a 24/7 No Snow solution. Yes, the collectors may be covered during the storm, but will melt off quickly as soon as the sun comes out.
- I'm not interested in an active heating system. I'm not going to pay to heat the outdoors.
- My problem is I'm not always home when it snows so I don't always get it shoveled before the new snow goes through a couple melt/freeze cycles. By then, most of the snow in the sun is totally gone, but the stuff in the shade has turned to ice. If someone (e.g. parcel delivery) drives on it, the wheel tracks turn into long lasting ice.
- At that point, all I need is enough heat to let me get under the ice with a shovel or scraper and scrape it off without having to chop/chip down onto the concrete. If I toss the ice into the sun it disappears in hours.

If/when I redo the concrete, I like the idea of laying tubing. That will leave options open.

Thanks

 

[rancherbill]

Have any of you done anything like this? Any thoughts?

I have infloor heating in my garage. I considered doing what you are doing.

I asked the plumbing guys and this is what I remember. There's a controller, a temp sensor, a ?barometer and of course the valves. The controller anticipates the storms and heats the concrete as needed.

I did not do it here, because I didn't want to heat the outdoors. I use a Stihl BR600, boy am I impressed.

 

[Firebrick43]

Honest to God, I woke up this morning thinking about this and REALIZED that we are looking at this all wrong.

Rather than melt snow off your driveway, you need to prevent snow from being on your driveway. Further, it is easy to do this without ANY energy source (solar, gas, nuclear, wood, coal, power plant, etc.) AND the technology is proven and has been in widespread use for well over 100 years. All we have to do is steal the technology and apply it to a driveway.

And here is your solution my friends. Your HOA is going to LOVE this.

Not to far down the road from me

 

[reader2580]

Thanks for the ideas and information. Here are some points I left out:
- I do try to snow blow/shovel as much and as soon as I can.
- I'm not looking for a 24/7 No Snow solution. Yes, the collectors may be covered during the storm, but will melt off quickly as soon as the sun comes out.

I have solar panels facing due south at a 35 degree angle. They don't just clear themselves of snow as soon as the sun comes out even though they are very dark in color. If I don't go out there and clear the snow off they can sometimes take days to clear themselves.

 

[ScaldedDog]

I don't understand the "I don't want to pay to heat the outdoors" thing. There is a solution to the problem the OP has, and it costs X dollars to install, and Y dollars to run. It's either worth that to the one doing the paying, or it isn't. What does "heating the outdoors" have to do with it?

Whether it's expensive to run, or not, is relative. If the compare is the cost to heat a garage with a radiant slab, then yes, it is. If the compare is to a $12 snow shovel, then it's ludicrously expensive. On the other hand, if the compare is the cost of getting sued by a delivery driver who busts his head on an icy driveway, then it's cheap. If the compare is the loss of one's own health, or the health of a loved one, due to a similar fall, then it's really, really, cheap.

Mark

 

[Tracs]

I don't understand the "I don't want to pay to heat the outdoors" thing. There is a solution to the problem the OP has, and it costs X dollars to install, and Y dollars to run. It's either worth that to the one doing the paying, or it isn't. What does "heating the outdoors" have to do with it?

Whether it's expensive to run, or not, is relative. If the compare is the cost to heat a garage with a radiant slab, then yes, it is. If the compare is to a $12 snow shovel, then it's ludicrously expensive. On the other hand, if the compare is the cost of getting sued by a delivery driver who busts his head on an icy driveway, then it's cheap. If the compare is the loss of one's own health, or the health of a loved one, due to a similar fall, then it's really, really, cheap.

Mark

I completely agree.

Also setting aside initial cost of install, to actually run it to melt snow/ice isn't all that expensive.

How many people would look out at a icy/snowy driveway and think, "damn, I would gladly pay $40/50/60...etc to have this ice/snow gone without work"?

I Live in Manitoba, Canada. When I build a house it will have a heated driveway and sidewalks.

 

[Skooterj]

I think this is a cheaper option. Just drop a plow on the Porsche.

 

[andyvh1959]

A heated garage floor I can justify. But a heated driveway, no way. At least in an insulated garage the heat given off by the slab does warm up the structure slightly. But a driveway, all the heat is given off to the atmosphere. Spend the ridiculous money to have someone clear your driveway for you if that is the issue, and you'll be dollars ahead for, years if not longer. The cost per convenience has near instant payback, but the initial cost per square foot is stupid high. Same for the operating cost.

 

[kelpaso1]

A heated garage floor I can justify. But a heated driveway, no way. At least in an insulated garage the heat given off by the slab does warm up the structure slightly. But a driveway, all the heat is given off to the atmosphere. Spend the ridiculous money to have someone clear your driveway for you if that is the issue, and you'll be dollars ahead for, years if not longer. The cost per convenience has near instant payback, but the initial cost per square foot is stupid high. Same for the operating cost.

I agree. If you can't clear your own driveway with a shovel, snowblower, or plow then you should move to where it doesn't snow. I can't imagine what my elec bill would look like if I heated my driveway

 

[kelpaso1]

I completely agree.

Also setting aside initial cost of install, to actually run it to melt snow/ice isn't all that expensive.

How many people would look out at a icy/snowy driveway and think, "damn, I would gladly pay $40/50/60...etc to have this ice/snow gone without work"?

I Live in Manitoba, Canada. When I build a house it will have a heated driveway and sidewalks.

LOL, will cost way more than that.

 

[Rc_Guy]

I agree. If you can't clear your own driveway with a shovel, snowblower, or plow then you should move to where it doesn't snow. I can't imagine what my elec bill would look like if I heated my driveway

Use gas, it would be cheaper.

There is a gas station south of me that has it by there pumps to the store so you don't have to walk on ice.

 

[ScaldedDog]

Use gas, it would be cheaper.

Yep, LNG is the way to go for this.

Mark

 

[Sumboodie]

This is why my #1 first priority when buying a home has always been, "It has to face south!" Period. Also, I see many east and west facing homes that shade the walkway with the garage. Drives me a little nuts. Don't they know, all you had to do is flip the house plan to have the garage wall reflect the sun onto the sidewalk and keep it melted. I know this doesn't address the OP's original concern, but like the mirror idea, in some circumstances maybe a wall could be built on the north side of driveway or walkway to reflect and melt the snow.

Few places have warm enough sun in winter to melt snow.

 

[Sumboodie]

I live in a resort area and there are lots of snow melt systems in driveways and walks. According to the plumbers I work with most systems get used the first winter and never get turned on again. It is cheaper to pay someone to shovel or plow than to run the melt system.
I have a driveway that is shaded most of winter and if I get 1/2" I'm shoveling it off or it is ice the next morning.
Another issue is the water has to go somewhere. I have seen elaborate drywells and other drain systems with mixed results.

It evaporates. At least it does here.

 

[andyvh1959]

Around here in Green Bay, its $20 to $25 to clear the driveway. My driveway is about 100' long, starts at 10' wide for about 50' then widens out to four car wide. Green Bay on average gets near 50" of snow. This winter has been real mild snow wise, only a few 4" deep snowfalls so far. I think I have shoveled once, and run the snowblower four times. So if I hired that out I'd be at $125 for the season so far.

Let's say a heated driveway is at least $10,000 for the complete system, that means 400 times of having someone clear my driveway for me at $25 per clearing. If I estimate 20 times a season to have it cleared (which is a LOT), that's 20 YEARS of snow clearing service just to match the cost of the system, not even including the cost to run the system. Hiring it out means NO driveway heating system maintenance, no snowblower storage and maintenance, no back-breaking work to shovel it. If I didn't buy my Ariens 8hp snowblower so cheap, and if I truly hated going out to run the snowblower to clear the driveway, I'd be way ahead to just hire out the snow clearing.

 

[PoorUB]

I completely agree.

Also setting aside initial cost of install, to actually run it to melt snow/ice isn't all that expensive.

How many people would look out at a icy/snowy driveway and think, "damn, I would gladly pay $40/50/60...etc to have this ice/snow gone without work"?

I Live in Manitoba, Canada. When I build a house it will have a heated driveway and sidewalks.

It would cost $50 every time it snows, or more! If I had a heated driveway with the snow we have been getting it would be running days many days in the last month. I would not be surprised if it would have cost well over $500 in the last 30 days.

I posted earlier is would cost me about $2 per hour to run snow melt so roughly $50 every 24 hours. I would have had it on continuously for the last week and it has been below zero. That would be a bunch a cash! Granted while up running the on time would drop a bit, but it is still some serous money. Not many people around here can drop $500 or more just to clear the snow off the drive.

 

[ripperd]

You guys are comparing apples to oranges a little bit.

The OP was looking at potentially just ocassionally melting the buildup of packed snow and ice. He wasn't talking about firing it up for every snowfall. It sounded like he was talking about after a few snowstorms and snowblowings/shovelings, then using the system to clear it. That is much different operationally.

Although in this case, either salt, or a flamethrower system might work better.

 

[csp]

Few places have warm enough sun in winter to melt snow.

Lots of places have warm enough sun in winter to melt snow. Mine would be gone in a day for the majority of winter if my concrete pad faced south.

 

[andyvh1959]

True, its more of a pay per snow/ice event, not near as much a daily event. Yes we do get occasional day after day snow events but not that much per season. Here in east central WI I try to get the snow cleared off right after it stops snowing or within the day of the snow event. My driveway is mostly north to south so during a sunny winter day it gets enough warming to eventually melt much of the snow clearing residual on the driveway. Trying to melt off snow buildup more than two inches with a heated driveway would likely take a lot of energy over many hours to clear if not a day.

 

[jagboy69]

Buddy of mine did the reverse of this for his swimming pool. He installed about a mile of 1" pex in his pool deck. Even in the blazing texas heat, he got 1 whole degree of heat rise from the dark colored slab. For his application, it was a complete waste of money.

With that said, if you could heat your antifreeze in your driveway loop with something like a free waste oil burner, then you can say you really accomplished something! I used to melt bronze with used waste motor oil. You would think that would be completely nasty, but it wasn't at all. I had zero smoke. Today I run straight sump jet fuel that's free and it's cleaner to store large amounts.

Here is proof I am not kidding!

 

[Rc_Guy]

True, its more of a pay per snow/ice event, not near as much a daily event. Yes we do get occasional day after day snow events but not that much per season. Here in east central WI I try to get the snow cleared off right after it stops snowing or within the day of the snow event. My driveway is mostly north to south so during a sunny winter day it gets enough warming to eventually melt much of the snow clearing residual on the driveway. Trying to melt off snow buildup more than two inches with a heated driveway would likely take a lot of energy over many hours to clear if not a day.

I have mention this YouTuber before, he drives by a neighbor with a heated driveway, they got about 10 inches of snow in the latest snow storm.

Here is a screen shot of video because I'm not sure if I'll link the video, he drives by the place at about 1:38 into video.

Edit. Looks like I learned how to link a video.

 

[andyvh1959]

THAT looks like snow plowing fun really.

 

[Rc_Guy]

THAT looks like snow plowing fun really.

Same thing I think, I live in Minnesota and enjoy plowing snow, I just wish we would get more

 

[andyvh1959]

Wanna bet that confuses the **** out of our wives? "Yeah mom, no he's now home now. Yeah, he is out again on that orange tractor toy thingy plowing driveways all over the subdivision. I swear he'd spend the entire day in that thing. He gets home and stares out the kitchen window at that thing and watches the local weather reports hoping for MORE snow!"

I'm weird that way, when we get a bigger snow dump I actually enjoy being out there with my Ariens snowblower moving it off the driveway. I'd probably also enjoy operating a bulldozer or excavator, moving large amounts of dirt with power is satisfying too.

 

[FMB4]

One or more dedicated 4x4 and/or AWD vehicles with studded snow tires is how many people deal with this.

 

[Rc_Guy]

One or more dedicated 4x4 and/or AWD vehicles with studded snow tires is how many people deal with this.

I guess I didn’t realize you could use studded tires anywhere but racing on the frozen lake

 

[HoosierBuddy]

You guys are comparing apples to oranges a little bit.

The OP was looking at potentially just ocassionally melting the buildup of packed snow and ice. He wasn't talking about firing it up for every snowfall. It sounded like he was talking about after a few snowstorms and snowblowings/shovelings, then using the system to clear it. That is much different operationally.

Although in this case, either salt, or a flamethrower system might work better.

The OP is proposing to do this with a solar collector. Having run the numbers, I'm confident his proposed solution won't melt any appreciable amount of snow. Snow will sublimate faster than you can melt it with a solar collector heating water/glycol being pumped through PEX, above the frost line, under a driveway subject to below freezing temperatures....during winter when days are shortest...

No way this works even a little bit.

 

[rlitman]

...No way this works even a little bit.

Agreed. He'd be better off using the solar to charge a portable battery pack and use that to run a USB fan on the roof of his car to save on gas.

 

[andyvh1959]

Plus if he calculates the BTU required to heat the driveway into kilowatts needed, and size a solar array to power all that he'll drop another $30,000 on the solar in addition to the $$K he spends on the driveway itself.

 

[Tracs]

LOL, will cost way more than that.

I'm talking about only running it for half a day to melt the ice off. Not run it all the time to keep it clear. Math says it would cost that much.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I guess I didn’t realize you could use studded tires anywhere but racing on the frozen lake

that depends on the studded tire

these are road legal




these are not so much road legal (or functional)

 

[NORTON'S SHOP]

that depends on the studded tire

these are road legal

^^^Not legal on roads in Minnesota. Haven't been legal for years.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

^^^Not legal on roads in Minnesota. Haven't been legal for years.

if they're legal in another state (and you live there), you can drive in MN on them. pretty sure the highway patrol would have a problem with you rolling on the latter.

 

[rancherbill]

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea. I had been in the mindset of having to turn on a boiler and pay for fuel. You have free fuel.

Using your free solar energy you can keep the slab at 40 all the time in the winter. You can put and store a huge amount of energy into the concrete. When it snows it will melt immediately. When the collectors melt the re-heating process begins.

 

[kj_mustang]

I would gladly pay someone $50 to clear my driveway. But, since it is over 400 feet long and I have another 1,000+ sq feet of concrete close to the house, I don't think anyone will do it for that. Last decent amount of snow, 7-8", it took me about an hour and a half on my tractor with a 6 foot bucket.

 

[kelpaso1]

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea. I had been in the mindset of having to turn on a boiler and pay for fuel. You have free fuel.

Using your free solar energy you can keep the slab at 40 all the time in the winter. You can put and store a huge amount of energy into the concrete. When it snows it will melt immediately. When the collectors melt the re-heating process begins.

LOL how is it free when you have to pay big bucks for the solar panels, batteries, inverter etc?

 

[rancherbill]

LOL how is it free when you have to pay big bucks for the solar panels, batteries, inverter etc?

He's doing WATER, not electricity. Small small money to run the pump.