Heating a pole building

[bobj49f2]

I moved my business out of my industrial park shop which was a 2X6 construction, drywalled, fully insulated walls, 12" of blown insulation on the ceiling. It also had two 12'x14' overhead doors. It's located in a business condo complex with five other identical building. When mine was built I had the heating system updated from the standard forced air units to two gas fired IR tube heaters. I only used one unit to heat the entire shop area which is 50'x40'. The reason the building had two units installed was because the building is designed to be divided into two separate spaces by building a wall down the center.

Now I've moved all my equipment into the pole building that came with the house we bought three years ago. We had intentions of doing this three years ago when we bought the house but I couldn't sell or rent the industrial park building until recently.

The pole building is uninsulated or heated. I plan to do this within the next month or so before the cold weather comes. I live in SE Wisconsin. My son is going to help insulate and set up the heating system. We have pretty much agreed to the way we're going to insulate the building but haven't decided on the heating system. I really like the IR tube heating I had in the other building. It ran off natural gas that was run through the industrial park. Where our house and pole building are located we need to run LP from a tank on the property. My son is going for a waste oil burning unit because we can have a fairly free supply of waste oil from the farm my other son runs and from the landscaping company my younger son works for and a few other sources. For my business and as a hobby I occasionally spray paint projects using automotive type equipment. Not a lot, maybe 4-5 times a year. My concerns are paint vapors in the shop and oil contamination of the paint. With the IR tube system I had the flame in the box 12 feet off the ground and I'd open the doors as soon as I laid a coat of paint down to air out the shop. I'm not sure about using an oil burning systems. Opinions? Experiences? Also, I've searched but it doesn't seem to be any IR systems that run off of waste oil. I'm assuming because they wouldn't run as clean as a gas systems and have problems with clogged jets.

 

[nomadskidoo]

I'm in the same Boat a 40'x64'x17'walls (Insulated the walls R32.Ceiling @R55,Floor R12) and would Paint Cars in 1 area,,Old left over Home,Furnace, LP 80k BTU unit95%eff,or the, IR?I like the IR,
IR experienced 15 years ago,,everythings warm.Same problem hard to get infil Burners I've been in shops using have a lot of maintenance work,(filters,cleaning,but a bit free heat for electric bill),don't use brake- kleen in,Used Oil Cart, used oil burning(Guys clean parts and ,it plugs filters up).FYI

 

[matt_i]

I don't think waste oil is typically used in radiant tube because the burner will be up next to the ceiling height and thus tough-er to work on if it needs regular maintenance. Also the liquid fuel will need to be stored high or else pumped up there to feed via gravity.

Its too bad you were not able to radiant-heat the concrete slab since its going to be heated/used a lot. That would have been a nice ride.

If you want to paint as a very basic first step you need sealed combustion (intake combustion air from outside and not from inside the shop) and keep solvent concentrations low in any case. I think an overhead radiant tube heater is a good candidate for that type of setup.

 

[bobj49f2]

The building I have in the industrial park the IR heater has an intake coming through the front wall of the building and exhaust out through the back wall. This is what I'd have done in my new shop. My son is set on an oil burner but I really like the IR tube head.

In my industrial park building the IR furnace is very efficient. Natural gas and electric was $350 in the coldest months. I'd have to use LP in my new shop. Anyone one have any idea what the comparison between natural gas and,LP?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Anyone one have any idea what the comparison between natural gas and,LP?

LP prices vary a lot from location to location and the time of year. Some places give you a good discount if you sign up for a regularly scheduled delivery instead of "on demand".

 

[bobj49f2]

I have LP at my house and natural gas at my industrial park shop. From the last few years I can see how much fuel I used at each location and can get a basic idea of the cost per unit. What I would like to know is if I’d use more LP to heat than if I used natural gas using the the same device. I know you need to convert a gas unit to a LP unit, just wanted to know the efficiency of one over the other.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd expect to use a fair bit of oil. How many gallons do you think you can generate ?

 

[bobj49f2]

I'd expect to use a fair bit of oil. How many gallons do you think you can generate ?

My oldest son is a farmer with 4-5 tractors and skidsteers, my youngest son works for landscaper with a fleet of trucks and other landscaping equipment. Right now the landscaper take his drain oil to a recycler, my son collects his oil in large totes, not sure what he does with it. My wife works for a school bus company also and they have to send their oil off. So I have access to a large quantity of drain oil, at least for now.

 

[NUTTSGT]

My oldest son is a farmer with 4-5 tractors and skidsteers, my youngest son works for landscaper with a fleet of trucks and other landscaping equipment. Right now the landscaper take his drain oil to a recycler, my son collects his oil in large totes, not sure what he does with it. My wife works for a school bus company also and they have to send their oil off. So I have access to a large quantity of drain oil, at least for now.

Other than a large amount of oil do you have a number of gallons ?


Figure what size of furnace you need for your space and what it's consumption rate is. I'd guess you'll be heating from October till mid-April. If you find a particular brand like Clean Burn, see if anybody in your area has one and try to talk them them and do a comparable for gallon usage.

I'd hate to see you run out of oil mid winter and not have another source of heat. I'm not sure what your funds are but possibly consider 2 sources of heat, the waste oil for evening/after hours & weekends and the radiate tube during normal hours.

 

[bobj49f2]

Eric, you bring up a good point to ponder.

My youngest son is hell bent on using the waste oil furnace saying it's "free" heat. My wife is also all in on the "free" part, it's her solid German farmer heritage . I am more concerned on the safety, work involved operating and maintaining the system and the quality of heat. This is going to be for a business where customers, mainly engineering types. I have been working with these types of people for over 25 years and most aren't very acceptable of any kind of mess or smell. Also, I do a small amount of spray painting, both on customers' projects and on my personal autos so I need to have a oil free atmosphere. Being as this is for a business I need reliable heat. I can't have it run out in the middle of a Wisconsin winter. Your point is very important to consider. I personally like the IR tube heater system, I've had it in my shop for over ten years but where my new shop is located I would need to run it on LP.

As for the supply of oil I can't say for sure how much I would have but I'm fairly certain between the four big tractors my son operates, which takes 4-5 gallon per oil change, the landscaper with a fleet of 6-7 trucks plus lawn equipment and larger equipment I should have a pretty decent supply. Also, the bus company my wife works for has a fleet of at least 100 buses at their nearby depot and have another 4 similar sized depots within driving distance. They have a waste oil system in their shop but my wife says they still have to send out excess oil they can't use.

 

[finn]

Other than a large amount of oil do you have a number of gallons ?


Figure what size of furnace you need for your space and what it's consumption rate is. I'd guess you'll be heating from October till mid-April. If you find a particular brand like Clean Burn, see if anybody in your area has one and try to talk them them and do a comparable for gallon usage.

I'd hate to see you run out of oil mid winter and not have another source of heat. I'm not sure what your funds are but possibly consider 2 sources of heat, the waste oil for evening/after hours & weekends and the radiate tube during normal hours.

No experience with waste oil heat, but from what I have heard, regular old number 2 fuel oil ( off highway Diesel) can be burned in a waste oil furnace. It may not match the efficiency of other forms of heat, but will do in a pinch.

Odor and handling issues would steer me towards propane for anything other than an auto repair shop, where you have to deal with dirty, stinky wast oil anyway as part of your business.

Propane is much more expensive than NG, but it’s part of the hidden expense of living or working in a rural area. Current propane in my area is $1.23-1.79/gallon.

 

[bobj49f2]

I've been reading a lot about waste oil heat. It seems like there is almost as many arguments against using it as there is for using it.

I just got off the phone with a company that sells waste oil furnaces, and of course their system is the best and waste oil heat is the way to go. One thing is the cost of the system. He gave me prices for the system I would need, $5500, just for the furnace. They there's the on board air compressor, $800. The tank and stand $2500. According to him I can install the unit following the supplied instruction book. I don't doubt I can install it myself. In my business I have installed many different types of industrial systems involving piping, including industrial furnaces and my business is in industrial control systems. He also told me that I should figure using 1 gallon of oil an hour to maintain 70°.

One consideration is he said I'd have to store the oil inside so it would get too thick to run into the furnace. I can get a tote, one of those 4'x4'x4' square containers but that's 4'x4' of floor space. Also, no matter what I can imagine there has to be some type of mess transferring oil from my truck to the tote to the tank in the furnace. Also, I don't really want to have to take the time to do all of the picking up of the oil, transporting it and then transferring it to the tote inside the building. Also, from what I have been reading there is a certain amount of monthly and seasonal maintenance involved. But again, I would be getting free fuel.

One more thing, the dealer I talked to recommended having a backup source of heat in the event the waste oil system shuts down, like when some contaminated oil gets into the system. He said they don't like antifreeze or any a few other contaminants. With my IR system in my old shop I know I had the possibility of a shut down but very unlikely. The dealer also suggested installing an IR system as continuous low temperature heat source that would maintain the shop at around 50° and use the waste oil system to bump the temperature to 70° during working hours but that's another $2500 for the IR and also would need the LP.

 

[bobj49f2]

I just called a local business that the dealer told me he works with. The business is an automotive transmission shop. They have a pretty good supply of waste oil to use. From what the guy at the shop told me the system is a little iffy. They have two buildings, both have the waste oil systems as their main heating source with a natural gas backup system. He said the waste oil systems give out a lot of heat but a spotty on the distribution of the heat. He said he has been in shop that had the IR tube systems and he liked them a lot more. He also said their waste oil system is very sensitive to impurities in the waste oil supply. They've had their heater shut down and had to either switch to their natural gas backups or they have standby replacement units that they switch out in an about an hour. They have a pretty elaborate system in both of their building with pumps and multiple filter systems. They also have large storage containers, both inside and out. They need to store oil inside to maintain viscosity that allows it to flow into the burner. The outside storage is for oil that had to be brought in and warmed up to be used.

Their needs are a lot bigger than mine but I still need a dependable source of heat. If my shop was going to be used as a hobby shop and the heat stopped I would be able to spend the time to get it back up and running. But since it's going to be used for a business I don't have the time to have the system shut down on a Wednesday morning and spend five hours working on it.

I don't know, I have to weigh all of the pros and cons to make a decision.

 

[bdbecker]

I gather you're not exactly thrilled about the idea of the waste oil system. With that in mind, and since the waste oil furnace dealer recommends having the propane IR tube anyway, maybe it makes sense to install the IR tube first and run it for a season to see what it's going to cost you to keep your shop warm this winter using only propane.

If you are okay with the cost, then you know you don't need to mess around with the waste oil furnace. If it ends up being more expensive than you'd like, then you can entertain the idea of the second system, and also have a better idea of the ROI on the "free" waste oil heat system.

EDIT:
One other thing, if you still don't like the idea of waste oil but still need a supplemental heat source, it gives you time to consider other options like wood pellets.

 

[bobj49f2]

Either way it's a big cost. I'd hate to make the mistake of going one way or the other and finding out later that I just blew a big wad of money on something I don't like.

I'm going to try to get to the bus company my wife works for to talk to their shop manager to see what he thinks of the waste oil system they have. Can never get too much information before making a big purchase.

The insulation of the building is no big deal, vapor barrier, matt insulation for the walls and blow in insulation in the ceiling. As this is going to be a business building heating will be part of the cost of business. If it was a hobby shop then I wouldn't have anything to pay for the heat except for my personal wallet.

 

[86turbodsl]

I am in a similar situation, LP only at my home location, i went waste oil, but built a burner, which i am NOT suggesting you do. If you're running a business there, and you can deduct your expenses, why is this even an issue? Just do LP fired overhead radiant.
I also think waste oil is a good way to go, but only because i built a drip fired burner, and i have a little spare time to fiddle with it and get free oil. Mine's pretty much impervious to contaminates because it's drip style, not gun style. Those are really fussy.

 

[kk7xx]

Either way it's a big cost. I'd hate to make the mistake of going one way or the other and finding out later that I just blew a big wad of money on something I don't like.

I'm going to try to get to the bus company my wife works for to talk to their shop manager to see what he thinks of the waste oil system they have. Can never get too much information before making a big purchase.

The insulation of the building is no big deal, vapor barrier, matt insulation for the walls and blow in insulation in the ceiling. As this is going to be a business building heating will be part of the cost of business. If it was a hobby shop then I wouldn't have anything to pay for the heat except for my personal wallet.

Interesting thread to follow. Sorry to sidetrack, but what vapor barrier are you going with or is that TBD?

 

[ReggieR]

Id make a bunch of sliding "walls" to go in that building. Use the heavy hanging door tracks from Stanley and build side by side in layers. Something on this order then use butterflys in the duct to divert the majority of the heat to the area you're working in.
Like walls and doors with nothing in the way unless you put it there


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[bobj49f2]

Interesting thread to follow. Sorry to sidetrack, but what vapor barrier are you going with or is that TBD?

At this point I haven't decided on a barrier. Whatever the big box store I'm planning to get the matt insulation from has. I'll be searching the forum for more help with that part.

 

[bobbyjean]

clean burn units are what i mainly see in my area....they work well and are reliable with the proper maintenence work that needs to be done on any oil burner....seems like the units i see that have issue are the ones with storage tanks outdoors

 

[finn]

I dropped five gallons of used oil off at a local, relatively new and orderly shop with a waste heater yesterday. Last time I did that was a couple of years ago.

What was a relatively clean area two years ago has degenerated into a black, oily mess, totally unsuitable for your as described customer base.

If you saw their settling and storage tank area, you wouldn’t consider anything but propane.

As an aside, I worked in a Diesel engine R&D facility for years, we dispensed bulk engine oil from a multi tiered barrel rack and never could keep that area clean. Three drips every time a technician transferred oil to a dispenser multiplied ten times per day made for a hard to clean mess, and that was with fresh oil, not filthy black used oil.

 

[bobj49f2]

All to bolster my argument for propane.

I talked to my farmer son yesterday about his used oil. He has six tractors, each use 5 gallons of oil. He changes oil every 1000 hours, about once a year. 30 gallons a year, not anywhere near what I’d need. Traveling to pick up oil would be a PIA and if I had people drop off oil it would not be dependable and a mess.

 

[nomadskidoo]

I like all of the input ideas form Heating,just would like a estimate on LP(or NG) for this size?Thanks!

 

[bobj49f2]

I like all of the input ideas form Heating,just would like a estimate on LP(or NG) for this size?Thanks!

That's what I am trying to figure out. My original building was about the same size. If I use the same type of heat I can estimate how much NG I will use. The hard part is converting that usage into what I expect to use in LP.

 

[kj_mustang]

http://www.propane101.com/propanevsnaturalgas.htm

 

[bobj49f2]

That is a very useful piece of information. Thank you very much for posting

 

[nomadskidoo]

Waste Oil,Burners are good when working,not to be a bummer,but(4 shops I've been,working in with waste oil burners) I see your price about @$13,000 then a Tire shop in town has had a $9,000 update,,I supply Oil too,,(besides there oe investment) and doesn't work correct so he's got like 2,000gal oil to burn,he rents LP space heaters for his shop,sorry,but heads up,& check with Your Banker first!Now Kill Me!For 50 years in the Mechanic World.

 

[TractorJeff]

Similar size buildings, one guy uses only his Fleet oil and cleans the burner every fall. Pumps from a cold tank in a storage building to the tank under the furnace. He maintains 65 degrees. Not sure on how much oil he uses, but I do know his is clean and not messy. Second guy only cleans his furnace when it quits, amazingly this doesn't occur too often. He maintains 45 degrees and gets his oil off from Craigslist. He has 2 Totes outside and the warm tank under the furnace. This setup is a dirty mess as described by the previous posters.

Would I do it in a Business environment?
No as I would need to be spending mine and employees time making money, not paying to maintain a heating system!

IR is nice as there is no fear of dust being blown around which obviously affects Paint quality plus any furnace sucking in ambient air, heating, blowing it back out is going to require filter maintenance also.

 

[Lk4z-slc]

+1 for clean burn units. I have 2 cb 2500's both in pole barns. ive never had an issue with either of them, and ill admit i slack on servicing them. Both shops are bodyshops also. No oil contamination whatsoever. Tank is indoors, if outdoors you need to thin the waste oil with diesel or fuel oil a bit, waste oil can get really thick in cold weather. Actually we had an IR natural gas setup in the one shop and it was costing a fortune so we got rid of it. Its nice heat but where we had it was hot as death and the other side was cold, rather than install another IR unit on the other side of the shop and double my heating cost we went with waste oil and never looked back. My heating bill last year was about 500 bucks

 

[bobj49f2]

From what I've gathered from talking to people here and on a few other discussion boards the is no such thing as "free" or "cheap" heat. Every system has a trade off. The gas fired units of any kind have a high cost for fuel but little to no maintenance and fuel supply and storage is simple, someone comes to fill on a regular basis, no personal handling of fuel. Waste oil supply is cheap or free but consistent supply and handling takes more work. Unless I have my own steady supply of oil like from my own fleet or customer vehicles I don't think I'd have enough to run 40+ hours a week for the entire cold season. Also, storage looks to be a mess I don't want to deal with. I have limited floor space in my shop and I don't want to store oil outside my shop.

So it looks like LPG IR tube heat. I was strongly leaning toward this to begin with because I liked it in my other shop, never really experienced any cold spots. I just needed some justification to use against my son's and wife's desire for "free" waste oil heat. I don't see having enough oil for my use, I don't want the mess (I know there will be a mess) and I don't want to have to travel around collecting oil or having people drop it off. Again, if this was a hobby shop with occasional use then maybe a waste oil burner system might work.

 

[Lk4z-slc]

I hear you, it can def get messy with waste oil while the ir heaters are basically no maintenance. Yes i have drums of oil lining one side of my shop all year. If i run out of oil i just run #2 fuel oil which is just a phone call away. Pros and cons to both but ir sounds like it better suits you

 

[Firebrick43]

I have worked in ag dealer shops that heated with waste oil and would never do it unless you are generating all the oil yourself. Even as much business as we had, we had to collect oil from farmers around the place. Invariably there was water/antifreeze that some poured in and it was constant filter changes and blowing out clogs and water out of the lines. Wasn't uncommon to come in the mourning to a cold shop due to a clog.

A friend has little problems with his as we built settling tanks and he uses a centrifuge but now there is lots of time, and the settling tanks take up lots of space. He also has issues getting rid of the sludge seperated from the oil.

 

[bobj49f2]

He also has issues getting rid of the sludge seperated from the oil.

That's definitely an issue to think about.

 

[bobj49f2]

Well, I'm pretty much decided on the IR tube heaters. The question I have now is placement. In my industrial park building the IR heater were places on opposing sides of the shop facing the center of the shop with the heat deflectors at a 45° angle. From my experience in that building I am sure I will only need one unit in my pole building. My question is it best put it on one side of the shop and angle the heat deflector (B) or install it in the center of the shop and point the defletor down (A). I think (B) would project the heat to the entire work area best. Just want to see what you guys think.

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[kberjian]

Option a has a more even distribution but if most of your work is on the side near option b that may work better.

 

[bobj49f2]

I forgot to add I will have a 15 foot ceiling.

That’s what I thought but sometimes what seems the best way isn’t. Many times there seems to be other factors to consider..

 

[Double J]

I opted to run my IR tube right down the middle. It gets a little cooler the closer to the walls you get, but nothing to be worried about. I personally don't want the heat beating directly down on me while I'm working anyway.

 

[bobj49f2]

Nice shop. Thanks for the input. I'll also be installing ceiling fans. They made a big difference in heating and cooling my shop.

 

[Cobradriver]

That's what I am trying to figure out. My original building was about the same size. If I use the same type of heat I can estimate how much NG I will use. The hard part is converting that usage into what I expect to use in LP.

Natural Gas......1K BTU/Cubic Foot 100K Per Therm

Propane...........2.5K BTU/Cubic Foot 92K BTU/Gallon

Look at some NG bills and figure how many Therms you used in the cold months with your first building.. You should be able to work from that to get an idea of how much propane you will consume.

This is with the idea that both buildings are roughly the same size and have similar insulation.

Chris

 

[bobj49f2]

We started insulating the pole building at the beginning of this month. I finally sold the building in the industrial park and have the money to put into the pole building. I decided to go with a two stage Re-Verber-Ray IR tube heater. We have most of the building insulated, covering the walls eight feet down with plywood and from there up with corrugated steel, along with the ceiling. We are running wires for new LED shop lights, two ceiling fans and four recoiling drop power cords along with power and piping for the heater

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I started insulating the overhead doors with my own recipe of 1" styrofoam and 1/8" plastic panels. I did four sections just to experiment to see how it turned and it looks pretty close the the factory insulated doors on my old shop. I wanted the plastic for easy cleaning. I found a couple of places that offer a similar product but I can do it my way for less than half the cost.

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