Help - Elevator pit - drain oil sump required???

[djm999]

I am building an addition to our home to function as a mother in law apartment; my build link is below. The build includes an elevator from the garage to the apartment. My plumber has informed me the county plumbing inspector may require us to put a drain in the elevator pit and if so, there would have to be a oil sensing sump pump in the event of a hydraulic leak in the elevator mechanism. All the garage floor drains empty into the sanitary sewer. He is estimating the additional cost at $3k.

It seems stupid to have a drain in the pit to start with since this is what could cause an environmental issue if hydraulic fluid is leaked. The pit would contain all of the fluid in the system but it will never happen since the elevator mechanism has a fail safe that shuts everything down as soon as a leak is detected.

I am about to start the discussion with the county health department. Does anybody have any suggested strategies? Thanks in advance; this site has been a big part of the planning and build.



A link to my build:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185396

 

[BillK]

All the garage floor drains empty into the sanitary sewer.

I am surprised that is even allowed. Most areas I know of do not allow it any longer.

The build includes an elevator from the garage to the apartment.

Better make sure that is allowed too, I imagine a bunch of fire door regulations to be met so that any fire in the garage cannot spread up to the Apartment.

I am about to start the discussion with the county health department.

Not sure if i would do that quite yet. Not even sure why the health dept would be involved unless they do those type of insections in your area. Does the elevator manufacturer offer any guidelines ? I am sure they have had to face this before.

I am sure you have already checked on most of this but just wanted to add my suggestions. I would just bring your plans to the county for approval and not mention a thing unless they ask.

 

[BillK]

DJ,
I just looked at the link to your build (real nice by the way) and realized you are way past the permit stage. I would have thought that all of your above questions would have been answered before the permit was even issued ????

 

[elevator joe]

You might want to call the elevator inspector for your (city and or state). You might find that they can offer a lot of help with touchy situations such as yours.

 

[1971gsfan]

unsure of the code in your area, But yes some states require this. What kind of elev. are you going with? Most GC s get buy with burying a container that the sump pump drains to in case there is a leak. Are you going with a Bore hole piston or a holeless elev? Commercial or residential elev? It makes a difference. I do this for a living so I can give you my suggestions/opinions from my experiences. I will be glad to tell you anything I know from a convenience/ practical point of view.

Tim

 

[Architorture]

you might want to look up the elevator code ANSI A17.1 which is used in PA in conjunction with the building code.

also if you are in allegheny county it is worth getting in touch with your code official...many of the county municipalities have some strange plumbing requirements.

 

[hibrid]

Your fail safe is probably a low oil timer.....if there is a significant leak and the car goes on a up run, it will stop short of the top landing because there isn't enough oil in the system to push the car there. The elevator would fault out and be innoperable, causing you to call the service company.

They might be talking about a scavenge pump, which returns small leakage accumulation at the head of the jack to the hydro tank in the machine room. Under no circumstance would oil be "drained" anywhere....EPA nightmare!


Also, FYI the elevator inspector usually has the final word and plumbing / electrical inspectors don't have any jurisdiction......their inspectors are to inspect the work that is tied to the elevator only.

 

[larry4406]

I have built 5 homes in northern VA with residential roped hydrualic elevators - this was about 7 years ago. All had elevator pits to enable the cab platform to depress below the basement slab so that the elevator floor was level with the basement slab. The elevator inspector specifically prohibited a drain in the bottom of the pit and the pit was a continous concrete pour with the basement slab. The adjacent elevator machine room contained the hydraulic pump and welded oil tank (pump in tank is best for sound mitigation). The elevator shaft had the hydraulic ram and hoses to the adjacent elevator machine room. Elevator shaft was done with 5/8 type X sheet rock for fire rating.

I have also done 5 commercial elevators, 4 in City of Baltimore MD and one in Viriginia near Richmond. All of these had pits but no floor drain. They were equipped with an oil minder pump - alarms on presence of oil, otherwise pumps out water.

Elevator Inspector had final word on the installations.

 

[djm999]

Thanks for the advice. We are aware of all of the fire requirements for the shaft. The township is requiring fire rated drywall and no other penetrations in the shaft. The elevator was in the original plan filed with our township. We have followed all the rules and have our building permit posted on the job site.

The potential problem is arising because the plumber is about to file his plan with the county. Plumbing regulations go through the Allegheny County Health Department. I have a letter from my township building code official and the township elevator inspector stating that they do not require a drain or sump on a residential elevator but my plumber has me worried about the county's position on the issue.

My elevator contractor says he has seen very few sump requirements for residential elevators but defers to the plumber who has to file his plan. I have an inquiry into the elevator manufacturer (Inclinator) regarding the hydraulic fail safe function. Maybe that will help me.

I was also going to recess a Bendpak scissor lift which would cause another 6" pit for the lift. I could go either way on this.

 

[darkk]

Almost sounds like your plumber is trying to add $3k to your bill....

 

[vator]

you may want to seek options other than hydraulic. Many companies offer machine room less elevators or mrl elevator. I would also speak directly with your local elevator inspector

 

[BD1]

Almost sounds like your plumber is trying to add $3k to your bill....

I think so too. Submit plan without pit and see what they say.

 

[djm999]

I think so too. Submit plan without pit and see what they say.

We'd be fine without a pit but it is necessary for the elevator floor to be flush with the garage floor. The pit seems to be the sticking point. I'm going to contact them today, so I'll know soon.

 

[blkhonda1991]

you may want to seek options other than hydraulic. Many companies offer machine room less elevators or mrl elevator. I would also speak directly with your local elevator inspector

this...we havent spec'd a hydraulic in any residential applications or even low rise 4-5 stories in years

 

[Architorture]

i suspect the presence of the pit is what is driving the requirement. chances are it will need either a floor drain or a sump pump. if there is a restriction it is likely that you can't have a floor drain connected directly to the sewer. in that case you probably need a little 2x2x2 sump pump pit. even if this is allowed to drain to the sewer it usually has to be separated by an air space to ensure that sewer gas doesn't enter the elevator shaft.

allegheny county is also touchy about floor drains in general. usually they require that they have a trap primer unless there is a water source nearby, such a sink or hose bib. this is another good reason why you would want to avoid a floor drain in the shaft...trap primers aren't cheap and they almost always fail.

the reason for the floor drain or sump pump is that in the case of a flood, water is going to seek the lowest level, so you end up with a pit full of water which creates a danger for the operation of the elevator.

 

[Higgins]

Dumb question, could you just build a platform in front of the elevator? That would eliminate the req. for the pit!

 

[wssix99]

this...we havent spec'd a hydraulic in any residential applications or even low rise 4-5 stories in years

Right! Residential elevators are electric and not hydraulic. You don't even need a "pit." All the mechanicals fit on the wall along side the elevator or at the very top of the shaft. These things are designed to be installed inside closets, etc.

That being said, you may want a depression in the slab of a few inches so you don't have to have a ramp going up on to the elevator deck. We're designing a house for a future elevator installation and only need a few inches. Your elevator manufacturer should be able to confirm how much you need.

 

[djm999]

Well good news today; I spoke to the head plumbing guy in the Allegheny County Health Department and he informed me that my plumber was mistaken on the need for a drain and sump. The residential codes are different than the commercial and thus don't have any drain or sump requirement. That's a relief.

Now I have to determine whether the plumber is lazy (never actually checked this, just told me he was sure), dishonest or just not very good at his job. He's not my hire; he's with the GC.

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[frankush]

I think the plumber did his job. In your original post you stated that he informed you that the county plumbing inspector may require you to .................... It's better that this info be brought to light ahead of time. You checked into it and it turned out ok. I much prefer to know about potential problems ahead of time.