Help...Issues with Contractor and New Garage

[99SVT]

Didn't have any shotty workmanship, but everything else sounds like our shop build.

One month turned into 6 months.

Guys would either not show up, or show up late and only work a couple of hours. We weren't in any hurry to get the shop built, but it is the whole principle of the thing. Fortunately, our general contractor only asked for money as he got things done, so we weren't ever sitting there with them owing us for money we've already put out.

I think it seems to be the norm for most contractors now... customer service ***** now.

 

[josall]

"So ideally, I don’t plan to make the final payment of $2,000 and put the money towards the epoxy."
I can only asume that you already paid $18,000, why on earth would you pay up front for a 7 day job. If he couldn't carry the job for 7 days you picked the wrong contractor. You might call the lumber yard and make sure they got paid. You have no recourse, you are screwed.

 

[blkhonda1991]

Again, this is no joke.

I will get more pictures later today.

I actually had an Architect do the drawings on this because the Contractor was denied a permit the first time. I originally wanted a 24x28 garage and drawings were required by the city because it was over 600sqft.

Attached is some info from the drawings regarding the fire walls

Also here is a link to some info http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=BXUV.U430&ccnshorttitle=Fire+Resistance+Ratings+-+ANSI/UL+263&objid=1074589212&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=107

i stopped reading here...you are getting totally hosed by both the architect and the builder here. i would definitely go after the architect as well, where did you find the architect and how much did he charge? could you post the entire set of drawings? A u430 wall is a NONBEARING rated wall assembly for interior use. The work by the contractor while shoddy is following the instructions of the architect so you cant fault them for using the wrong wall assembly, but you can fault them for failing miserably at doing their job to a high standard. I am assuming permits have not been pulled since you would have had to have a footing and a framing inspection and i would really hope an inspector wouldnt pass any of that! have you seen any paper work regarding a permit? you should have a copy that would be displayed someone at your house so they know its permitted work. what a mess!

 

[scottzilla]

Obviously this guy is screwed so no need to comment further.

My thought is at some point, assuming the contractor will continue stealing from the customer and doing the shoddy work, an actual inspector will come in and have to sign off on the building, right? It seems to me bad contractors should not even have the chance to exist; they would be weeded out early on in the project. I mean, the framing is supposed to be inspected, so the job should have stopped right there, no? Actually, the foundation should have failed and the work should have stopped even earlier.
I guess as a law abiding person i'm fascinated by how crooks get away with it.

 

[OneTon]

My thought is at some point, assuming the contractor will continue stealing from the customer and doing the shoddy work, an actual inspector will come in and have to sign off on the building, right? I mean, the framing is supposed to be inspected, so the job should have stopped right there, no? Actually, the foundation should have failed and the work should have stopped even earlier.
I guess as a law abiding person i'm fascinated by how crooks get away with it.

Well...(and I'm wildly speculating here)...seeing how local Chicago gov't has a reputation for being corrupt, it wouldn't surprise me if inspectors can be paid off by their "brother-in-law" the contractor.

Or, the builder never called-in for inspections, knowing he'd be long gone by the time an inspector eventually showed up to investigate the open permit.

 

[blkhonda1991]

Well...(and I'm wildly speculating here)...seeing how local Chicago gov't has a reputation for being corrupt, it wouldn't surprise me if inspectors can be paid off by their "brother-in-law" the contractor.

Or, the builder never called-in for inspections, knowing he'd be long gone by the time an inspector eventually showed up.

definitely in the realm of possibility in just about any location...something has gone terribly wrong in this build from the beginning...i am actually fuming reading this thread knowing the OP got so ripped off starting with an incompetent architect (i am an architect) and then a terrible contractor who should know better than to build what he has built.

 

[blkhonda1991]

i just glanced back through the pics...did he roof before putting in the skylights!? why would you roof a brand new building before flashing in a skylight!?

 

[danski0224]

i just glanced back through the pics...did he roof before putting in the skylights!? why would you roof a brand new building before flashing in a skylight!?

It's easier that way...

 

[OneTon]

definitely in the realm of possibility in just about any location...something has gone terribly wrong in this build from the beginning...i am actually fuming reading this thread knowing the OP got so ripped off starting with an incompetent architect (i am an architect) and then a terrible contractor who should know better than to build what he has built.

Yes, frustrating, sad, etc. There are so many homeowners out there who are unknowledgable as to building trades, they have no choice but to believe the first guy that shows up with a tool belt and a business card stating "kontraktor".

I see work performed at clients/friends homes/offices that they're so proud of, all the while silently shaking my head. I've been the cause of more than one job being stopped due to my lack of ability to mind my own business/keeping my mouth shut.

 

[kenscr5]

I am a working professional, not a Carpenter or an Architect, and I put my trust in these people to do their jobs. I am not stupid but I do know shoddy work when I see it. Why else would I have started this thread.

I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions and I see that you guys feel my pain.

If this is not the proper way to build a garage with steel studs and 2-hour rated fire walls, then can someone tell me what is???

 

[danski0224]

http://www.steelframing.org/PDF/research/RP81-1.pdf

http://www.usg.com/rc/system-catalogs/drywall-steel-framed-systems-catalog-SA923.pdf

This one: http://www.clarkwestern.com/documents/2-LGSEAFireRatedAssembliesforCold-FormedSteel-ReadOnly.pdf lists the wall assembly codes. Should be easy to search those details.

First thing to do on my list in your case would be to pay a visit to the architect. He speced the wrong assembly and should have E&O insurance. Talk nice, first.

 

[OneTon]

If this is not the proper way to build a garage with steel studs and 2-hour rated fire walls, then can someone tell me what is???

OK. As soon as you get done explaining the tax code to me...

You need to research the local market and find the very best contractor you can (he/she may even be lurking here on GJ). Have them take a look-see and give you their opinion as to how to proceed.

 

[blkhonda1991]

I am a working professional, not a Carpenter or an Architect, and I put my trust in these people to do their jobs. I am not stupid but I do know shoddy work when I see it. Why else would I have started this thread.

I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions and I see that you guys feel my pain.

If this is not the proper way to build a garage with steel studs and 2-hour rated fire walls, then can someone tell me what is???

the easisest way is masonry...but i dont have too much time to research assemblies right now since i dont really deal with many exterior wall ratings but the first one i came across is a U418 calling for 3 layers of gyp board inside and 1 layer of gypsum SHEATHING not gypsum board on steel studs.

Btw are you at the lot line on only one side? in that case you shouldnt have to rate all walls for 2 hours just one on the lot line as far as my experience with fire separation

also check this out, they have a decent feature where you can look up assemblies based on your criteria, this is what came up for 2 hour load bearing.
http://www.usgdesignstudio.com/wallDesign.asp?fFraming=3&fRating=2.0&fSTC=&x=71&y=2

 

[OneTon]

http://www.steelframing.org/PDF/research/RP81-1.pdf

http://www.usg.com/rc/system-catalogs/drywall-steel-framed-systems-catalog-SA923.pdf

This one: http://www.clarkwestern.com/documents/2-LGSEAFireRatedAssembliesforCold-FormedSteel-ReadOnly.pdf lists the wall assembly codes. Should be easy to search those details.

Good reading, but be reminded those are "minimum" requirements (local codes apply). I would not frame an exterior wall in snow-load country with anything less than 6" steel studs (allows for more insulation, too).

 

[danski0224]

Good reading, but be reminded those are "minimum" requirements (local codes apply). I would not frame an exterior wall in snow-load country with anything less than 6" steel studs (allows for more insulation, too).

Any building code is just the legal minimum standard you can build to and get away with it.

Anything more costs substantially more upfront (but may have other benefits like reduced energy usage). Upfront costs are the problem when homeowners are price shopping 3 line item bids.

 

[Grumpy365]

i just glanced back through the pics...did he roof before putting in the skylights!? why would you roof a brand new building before flashing in a skylight!?

Why would you sheetrock a wall before it is up? That was my question.

This really ***** for the OP. Really he shouldn't need to know anything about fire walls or seal plates, etc. that is what he is paying a contractor for, BUT if you don't know a little about a lot, you are a mark for scheister contractors.

 

[Robert Haas]

Lack of shear wall as well as seismic reinforcement leaves me with a sick feeling in my gut. What the hell happens when a 75 MPH wind hits this structure when the roll up doors are open?

I have been a licensed contractor for 30 years. This little project reinforces my belief that this country is full of idiots, and these idiots are happy as hell to pay the lowest bidder and then ***** about the lack of talent brought to bare on the project in question.


This ain't the builders fault, it ain't the Architects either. This nightmare is the homeowners fault and he deserves to have the whole project crumble to the ground in the next 60 months. Just hope there are no innocents inside when it happens.

If you are not qualified to supervise a project being completed on your property you damn well better do your homework investigating the person you are hiring to supervise for you. If you are too stupid or lazy to do that, then don't ***** about the *** kicking you receive. it is all part of the education.

Just as the kid down at the parts store ain't qualified to work on the cars he sells parts for, the guy with the hammer in his belt that is destroying the building materials in your back yard ain't qualified to build a bird house, let alone a structure that human beings might some day be inside.

 

[Robert Haas]

Why would you sheetrock a wall before it is up? That was my question.

This really ***** for the OP. Really he shouldn't need to know anything about fire walls or seal plates, etc. that is what he is paying a contractor for, BUT if you don't know a little about a lot, you are a mark for scheister contractors.

some wall require 100% completion before erecting due to not having physical access to once erected. (Too close to a wall or fence) so you completely finish it on the ground right down to the siding and paint, then stand it up and carry on.

 

[blkhonda1991]

How thorough were the architects drawings? i would love to see that set of drawings...did you hire this architect yourself or did the contractor hire them? Don't just blame the contractor here, you definitively should be beating down your architects door too due to their incompetence in specifying a correct rated wall assembly.

 

[OneTon]

Since we're asking questions, I have one:

How did the foundation, framing, roofing inspections pan out?

 

[blkhonda1991]

I have been a licensed contractor for 30 years. This little project reinforces my belief that this country is full of idiots, and these idiots are happy as hell to pay the lowest bidder and then ***** about the lack of talent brought to bare on the project in question.


This ain't the builders fault, it ain't the Architects either. This nightmare is the homeowners fault and he deserves to have the whole project crumble to the ground in the next 60 months. Just hope there are no innocents inside when it happens.

Did you really just blame the homeowner for so called professionals completely botching the job!? The only thing he is guilty of is not doing enough research on the contractor and does not deserve any of the above to happen to him when he pays money for the service of an architect and a contractor to build him a garage. he clearly is not a contractor or he would have realize this was not correct practice long ago and it is now obvious to him.
should people blame themselves when their are medical malpractice issues and a surgeon messes something up? of course not, you pay these people with the knowledge you dont have to do the things you need done.
You are coming off as a bitter contractor who is getting undercut by other contractors who do sub par work. if anything the idiots are the people parading themselves around as architects and contractors who dont know a damn thing about what they are doing, period.

 

[James E]

I have been a licensed contractor for 30 years. This little project reinforces my belief that this country is full of idiots, and these idiots are happy as hell to pay the lowest bidder and then ***** about the lack of talent brought to bare on the project in question.

This may be true in some cases. When someone gets only one bid or chooses a bid that's drastically lower than the others, he's asking for trouble. We don't know that's the case here. Some people only do a project like this once or twice in their lifetimes. It's reasonable to think that having no frame of reference, they have no idea what the project SHOULD cost.

This ain't the builders fault, it ain't the Architects either. This nightmare is the homeowners fault and he deserves to have the whole project crumble to the ground in the next 60 months. Just hope there are no innocents inside when it happens.

I disagree again. If the architect spec'd an interior wall for an exterior, then he F'ed up. If the contractor built something that was spec'd in a way he knew was wrong, then he F'ed up, too. Again, I fall back on the idea that homeowners should do their research, but in the end, architects and contractors are licensed by their municipalities and should either correct misunderstandings that the homeowners have or not take on a job if the homeowner insists they do something wrong.

If you are not qualified to supervise a project being completed on your property you damn well better do your homework investigating the person you are hiring to supervise for you. If you are too stupid or lazy to do that, then don't ***** about the *** kicking you receive. it is all part of the education.

I've got to agree with you there. Assuming the homeowner has no clue, the burden is on them to investigate the contractor upfront. I'd never use anybody that couldn't give me lots and lots of phone numbers of clients that were happy to recommend him.

It does seem, though, that even a small amount of research would show that the price was way low--especially for a place like Chicago, where the weather means the codes are pretty strict. I see other garages on the street in some of the pics. At the very least, I would be looking at a neighbor's garage at every step of the way and asking the contractor and subs why they were doing everything differently than all the neighbors did.

 

[logical]

Hey all!

....
So ideally, I don’t plan to make the final payment of $2,000 and put the money towards the epoxy.

What do you guys think? Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

If he had told you before he started that you could save $2000 if you let him build it this way would you have agreed?

 

[Robert Haas]

Did you really just blame the homeowner for so called professionals completely botching the job!? The only thing he is guilty of is not doing enough research on the contractor and does not deserve any of the above to happen to him when he pays money for the service of an architect and a contractor to build him a garage. he clearly is not a contractor or he would have realize this was not correct practice long ago and it is now obvious to him.
should people blame themselves when their are medical malpractice issues and a surgeon messes something up? of course not, you pay these people with the knowledge you dont have to do the things you need done.
You are coming off as a bitter contractor who is getting undercut by other contractors who do sub par work. if anything the idiots are the people parading themselves around as architects and contractors who dont know a damn thing about what they are doing, period.

Yes I put the full blame on the consumer.

You buy a Porterhouse steak at the grocery store for ten cents a pound you sure can not expect it to be USDA Prime now can you.

If your Brain surgeon tells you he can get that tumor out of your skull for a fraction of what the industry runs at, well you can't ***** when he uses a sawzall now can you?


You get multiple bids for a reason, you choose the one to sign up with intelligence. If you ain't smart enough to know the way to go, then take your medicine and move on to your next drama.(you are gonna have a lot of them)

life ain't easy. Wear a cup

 

[kenscr5]

Lack of shear wall as well as seismic reinforcement leaves me with a sick feeling in my gut. What the hell happens when a 75 MPH wind hits this structure when the roll up doors are open?

I have been a licensed contractor for 30 years. This little project reinforces my belief that this country is full of idiots, and these idiots are happy as hell to pay the lowest bidder and then ***** about the lack of talent brought to bare on the project in question.


This ain't the builders fault, it ain't the Architects either. This nightmare is the homeowners fault and he deserves to have the whole project crumble to the ground in the next 60 months. Just hope there are no innocents inside when it happens.

If you are not qualified to supervise a project being completed on your property you damn well better do your homework investigating the person you are hiring to supervise for you. If you are too stupid or lazy to do that, then don't ***** about the *** kicking you receive. it is all part of the education.

Just as the kid down at the parts store ain't qualified to work on the cars he sells parts for, the guy with the hammer in his belt that is destroying the building materials in your back yard ain't qualified to build a bird house, let alone a structure that human beings might some day be inside.

Wow this is pretty harsh. I came on here for your opinions and advice and you say I am stupid and lazy. I am NOT a Carpenter or an Architect, nor did I go to school to become a Carpenter or an Architect, nor do I do business in Carpentry or in Architecture. If I hire professionals who know the trade and the code, I expect them to follow it and build me a proper garage.

 

[blkhonda1991]

Yes I put the full blame on the consumer.

You buy a Porterhouse steak at the grocery store for ten cents a pound you sure can not expect it to be USDA Prime now can you.

Everyone knows how much steaks cost, many do not know the cost of construction and dont have a reference point to go off of other than multiple bids.

If your Brain surgeon tells you he can get that tumor out of your skull for a fraction of what the industry runs at, well you can't ***** when he uses a sawzall now can you?

you dont shop around for prices for brain surgery

You get multiple bids for a reason, you choose the one to sign up with intelligence. If you ain't smart enough to know the way to go, then take your medicine and move on to your next drama.(you are gonna have a lot of them)

kenscr5 "Lol definitely not lowest bidder. The new garage cost me $20,000."

life ain't easy. Wear a cup

...........

 

[Robert Haas]

Wow this is pretty harsh. I came on here for your opinions and advice and you say I am stupid and lazy. I am NOT a Carpenter or an Architect, nor did I go to school to become a Carpenter or an Architect, nor do I do business in Carpentry or in Architecture. If I hire professionals who know the trade and the code, I expect them to follow it and build me a proper garage.

Good luck with that

How many inspections have been completed?


You are a hands on type of customer cleaning up the site every day and taking pictures of the work to document your concerns so I am sure you are on top of the actual legalities and requirements of construction that is going on @ your property

 

[MrMark]

You need to get someone who knows what they are doing architect wise and engineer wise to go other this. No shear and no proper foundation (probably) and no hold downs, all as noted in the beginning of this thread, makes for a very weak structure. You basically paid way too little.

The upside is that you probably go 20K worth of work on a 40K job as someone pointed out. I would cut my losses, call in the inspectors, call in an architect and be prepared to be substantial retrofit. You can save what's there, you just need to fix it. I imagine you are going to need another 20K loan.

 

[kenscr5]

This is ridiculous, why should I have to prove that I did my research to any joker who thinks I didn't do any. I researched this for 3 flippin months before signing a contract. I got 10 estimates between $15k-25k. I compared all of the estimates including all materials and numbers. I also called each contractor at least 5 times to clarify their estimate because some offered what others did not. Furthermore, I looked at 2-3 garages built by each contractor, and spoke directly with the customers. Ultimately, I chose this contractor because he showed me a garage they built last year that was similar to the garage I wanted, minus the steel framing.

 

[MrMark]

I would make sure the lumber yard and all material providers have been paid. And you should not even think about paying the 2K in your pocket.

 

[blkhonda1991]

You need to get someone who knows what they are doing architect wise and engineer wise to go other this. No shear and no proper foundation (probably) and no hold downs, all as noted in the beginning of this thread, makes for a very weak structure. You basically paid way too little.

The upside is that you probably go 20K worth of work on a 40K job as someone pointed out. I would cut my losses, call in the inspectors, call in an architect and be prepared to be substantial retrofit. You can save what's there, you just need to fix it. I imagine you are going to need another 20K loan.

unfortunately the only thing he can probably save is the foundation and trusses at this point

 

[MrMark]

What about the electrical? Was that included in the 20K? Where is it coming in from? Has any of that work been done?

No plumbing out there for water?

 

[MrMark]

unfortunately the only thing he can probably save is the foundation and trusses at this point

Why can't he strip it of the ext sheetrock, properly shear where needed, sheath (I would) and fix the sill plate problem?

 

[redsky49]

You're getting lots of comments and criticism but little good advice. I am not sure I can do any better but I will take a stab at it.

I would issue an immediate Stop Work order.

I would engage a qualified architect/engineer to visit the site, examine the construction documents, and issue a comprehensive Punch List for proper completion of the project.

I would discuss the issue with your attorney to protect yourself from all parties and to potentially recover damages. This might actually be the best first step.

Your garage is unfortunately a mess, with serious problems, and that will come back to haunt you should you try to sell your property, insure the building or even get final inspections and C. of O.

This will be painful, but the longer you procrastinate, the worse it will become.

Good luck to you.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[blkhonda1991]

This is ridiculous, why should I have to prove that I did my research to any joker who thinks I didn't do any. I researched this for 3 flippin months before signing a contract. I got 10 estimates between $15k-25k. I compared all of the estimates including all materials and numbers. I also called each contractor at least 5 times to clarify their estimate because some offered what others did not. Furthermore, I looked at 2-3 garages built by each contractor, and spoke directly with the customers. Ultimately, I chose this contractor because he showed me a garage they built last year that was similar to the garage I wanted, minus the steel framing.

you have done all you can really, i dont understand how anyone could blame you in this situation, clearly this was not your fault other than paying too much too soon. Unfortunately i dont know how much recourse you have at this point other than to try to sue the architect and the builder.

 

[blkhonda1991]

Why can't he strip it of the ext sheetrock, properly shear where needed, sheath (I would) and fix the sill plate problem?

i would start from scratch on the framing, the crew seems very sub par and the lumber isnt very good in some places and id rather the peace of mind having a new contractor build the compete structure and i would imagine no contractor would take on this work doing it any other way other than going back to the slab.

 

[ishiboo]

First off, I don't see 20k being all that unreasonable in the midwest. The 30x40 stick frame (2x6) I'm in as a workshop, with 14' ceilings, steel siding, etc... "over built" since it is technically commercial, cost a total of $51k - 29k of which was the land it sits on. (Condo workshops) With the differences in fire code/construction I can see why his would cost more around 30, but 20k does not appear to be unreasonable, especially with inexpensive subs.

Second, while I agree that the world has come to "buyer beware" years ago, that still does not mean he is to blame. He paid 20k to build something to code. He hired an architect. Things should be done right regardless of whether or not you think he paid enough. Quit giving him **** and help the guy out.

At this point, I would highly doubt that the garage will pass inspections and be allowed to sit as is. Unfortunately, it's a total piece, and I don't use the term lightly. That work is awful. As was mentioned, you need to spend some of your change to get a proper architect/engineer out there to come up with a plan. It sounds like the original architect is at fault, it was also good advice to go and nicely talk to him about what was done wrong - if his insurance pays for your walls to be replaced, much of your problems are solved.

Unfortunately I think it is safe to say you will not be getting any restitution from this contractor, but you might as well try. The problem is you've paid him, and he went out and hired a couple inexpensive guys he has zero control over and who have zero quality control themselves. As "the boss" it is his responsibility to make sure things are done properly and to code, and he hasn't been there.

Ignore the people giving you ****. You have enough to deal with.

 

[MrMark]

i would start from scratch on the framing, the crew seems very sub par and the lumber isnt very good in some places and id rather the peace of mind having a new contractor build the compete structure and i would imagine no contractor would take on this work doing it any other way other than going back to the slab.

Maybe right. The lumber is truly horrible. It wasn't culled at all. They could have at least picked a decent 2X6 or whatever for the king stud. That alone shows me that he get a complete half-assed crew. I also don't understand why it isn't just the zero lot line wall with the steel studs and the gypsum? Why create more problems.

 

[gabedad]

You should also have a lawyer write up a letter to the contractor that you officially are removing him from the job and will not pay anymore

Futhermore you should let him know that you are going to hire someone to finish the job and he may incurr charges by you for improper work that was supplied.

I had to do this with a bathroom reno. that went bad and I had to fire the contractor

However - if no permit - then you may not have any leg to stand on with the contactor

In MAss - ex

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterm...solving_home_improvement_complaints&csid=Eoca

 

[blkhonda1991]

First off, I don't see 20k being all that unreasonable in the midwest. The 30x40 stick frame (2x6) I'm in as a workshop, with 14' ceilings, steel siding, etc... "over built" since it is technically commercial, cost a total of $51k - 29k of which was the land it sits on. (Condo workshops) With the differences in fire code/construction I can see why his would cost more around 30, but 20k does not appear to be unreasonable, especially with inexpensive subs.

Second, while I agree that the world has come to "buyer beware" years ago, that still does not mean he is to blame. He paid 20k to build something to code. He hired an architect. Things should be done right regardless of whether or not you think he paid enough. Quit giving him **** and help the guy out.

At this point, I would highly doubt that the garage will pass inspections and be allowed to sit as is. Unfortunately, it's a total piece, and I don't use the term lightly. That work is awful. As was mentioned, you need to spend some of your change to get a proper architect/engineer out there to come up with a plan. It sounds like the original architect is at fault, it was also good advice to go and nicely talk to him about what was done wrong - if his insurance pays for your walls to be replaced, much of your problems are solved.

Unfortunately I think it is safe to say you will not be getting any restitution from this contractor, but you might as well try. The problem is you've paid him, and he went out and hired a couple inexpensive guys he has zero control over and who have zero quality control themselves. As "the boss" it is his responsibility to make sure things are done properly and to code, and he hasn't been there.

Ignore the people giving you ****. You have enough to deal with.

great advice...like i said before the architect bears a lot of responsibility in the case of the walls, that was an egregious error and the biggest one besides the shoddy workmanship from the contractor.