Help me get started in building bomber style seats

[Gore]

So I am about to start wasting metal, and money, teaching myself how to build bomber style seats and other furniture type stuff with an aviation theme.

I am at square 1...below square 1...like circle 0...is that a thing?

I want to know what is the preferred metal type that most use...or if there is even a preference, or if the job determines the medium.

I am thinking .063 aluminum, don't know what type, 3003...5052...6061? I'm not building a space ship fwiw.

Would steel be better, and then I could clearcoat it?

I have a mig...spool gun for Al but not the proper gas...but I am thinking I'd be using solid rivets for construction anyway. I could see times where welding would be beneficial though.

The post is total thought vomit...but if you can make sense of what I'm saying, please give me some pointers.

 

[FJ 432]

Just an idea to jog your creative juices. These are not really comfortable.

https://www.restorationhardware.com...productId=prod14340070&categoryId=cat10210015

 

[PugetDude]

thought vomit...

There are a few GJ members that have extensive fab/rivet experience; hopefully they'll chime in here to share their collective knowledge.

Subscribed for updates!

 

[Gore]

Just an idea to jog your creative juices. These are not really comfortable.

https://www.restorationhardware.com...productId=prod14340070&categoryId=cat10210015

Love 'em, the desk they have is pretty cool too.

Definitely a "man cave" style of furniture though so it's a tough sell with the wifey lol

 

[Gore]

thought vomit...

There are a few GJ members that have extensive fab/rivet experience; hopefully they'll chime in here to share their collective knowledge.

Subscribed for updates!

I remember seeing some pics of someone's garage a few years back and the whole thing was aviation styled and rivets galore...just beautiful.

My issue is that I am going to have to source this metal and I don't even know where to begin lol.

Most of the time people post their finished products, but the details like metal type get left out...and I don't have an "eye" for what type I'm looking at just yet.

Also, I plan to do things like dimple dies, bead rolling, etc...and I don't want to use a metal that is too thin and break through, or create a razor blade sharp hole.

 

[PugetDude]

I remember seeing some pics of someone's garage a few years back and the whole thing was aviation styled and rivets galore...just beautiful.

My issue is that I am going to have to source this metal and I don't even know where to begin lol.

Most of the time people post their finished products, but the details like metal type get left out...and I don't have an "eye" for what type I'm looking at just yet.

Also, I plan to do things like dimple dies, bead rolling, etc...and I don't want to use a metal that is too thin and break through, or create a razor blade sharp hole.

Gore, the secret to forming aluminum sheet is to anneal it first.

If I'm recalling this correctly, (and if I don't, someone will be along to correct me shortly....LOL) you need to heat it with an oxyacetylene torch set on a carburizing flame, depositing a layer of soot evenly over the sheet. The switch to an oxidizing flame and quickly burn the soot off evenly. Let it cool and it will be easy to bend/form/punch/drill without cracking or work-hardening.

Good luck!

 

[Perrorojo]

I remember seeing some pics of someone's garage a few years back and the whole thing was aviation styled and rivets galore...just beautiful.

My issue is that I am going to have to source this metal and I don't even know where to begin lol.

Most of the time people post their finished products, but the details like metal type get left out...and I don't have an "eye" for what type I'm looking at just yet.

Also, I plan to do things like dimple dies, bead rolling, etc...and I don't want to use a metal that is too thin and break through, or create a razor blade sharp hole.

Steampunk Garage or something like that.

 

[Gore]

Gore, the secret to forming aluminum sheet is to anneal it first.

If I'm recalling this correctly, (and if I don't, someone will be along to correct me shortly....LOL) you need to heat it with an oxyacetylene torch set on a carburizing flame, depositing a layer of soot evenly over the sheet. The switch to an oxidizing flame and quickly burn the soot off evenly. Let it cool and it will be easy to bend/form/punch/drill without cracking or work-hardening.

Good luck!

I'm interested to hear if that's a requirement for all types...beneficial for thin sheet...an extra step...etc???

I remember watching Jesse James do that for making gas tanks but that looked like really thin stuff.

 

[jamscal]

I don't make bomber seats but I do -some- forming of aluminum.

I use 3003 .063 aluminum and don't have to anneal it.

Just playing around with the hammer on a shot bag I can make a pretty deep dish with no cracking.

General bending, rolling, shrinking...no problems with that material.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Aero-1946 detail some of their techniques
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160486

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

^^^ That's who I was thinking of but couldn't remember the name.

 

[Fluxion]

Oh man, I'd love to build a bomber seat someday! I have been collecting sheet metal tools and learning to use them. Im building a new bead roller in my spare time so hopefully I'll give it a try soon.

 

[Ohmthis]

Build your seats out of cardboard, marking where they will be riveted together and where the dimples will be. Then move the pieces to what ever metal of choice you choose. What tools do you have for these? I can see you using hand tools like shears/snips, hammers, dollies, and even an adjustable wrench (you can use it to bend). Special tools like a slip roll, brake, welder, torches, stretcher/shrinker, and a bead roller will definitely help out too. Post up a project, there are some great sheet metal guys here that can help.

 

[metlmunchr]

3003-H14 would work well for this. This is commonly referred to as half hard temper and it is highly formable. Dead soft material would be 3003-0 and it doesn't shear, punch, or drill as cleanly as H14.

I would punch holes to the greatest extent possible as punched holes come out much cleaner and more burr free than drilled holes.

The sheets may be available with a plastic sheeting applied to the surface for a few bucks more per sheet. This goes a long way in preventing scratching of the surface during handling and saves many hours of rubbing with scotchbrite pads.

IMO, a wire edge adds to both the appearance and the stiffness of something like a bomber seat. Lazze has a couple videos where he demonstrates the forming of a wire edge in a bead roller if you're not familiar with the process.

If you haven't done it before, you should spend a fair bit of time practicing bucking rivets prior to starting on the actual parts. Seems like someone makes a hydraulic tool that will squeeze solid rivets to final shape, but IIRC that tool is several hundred $$. Nice rivet work makes or breaks the appearance of this type project, and having bucked thousands of solid steel rivets in the past I can say from personal experience that you don't just grab a hammer and rivet set and magically know how to do it.

 

[cvairwerks]

Lots of stuff out there for learning basic sheet metal tasks. One quick start is order the toolbox project from Van’s Aircraft. .063” for a seat is pretty heavy and you are going to have trouble forming it without heavy tools. Most in the aircraft world are .040” and .032”. T3 or softer is what you want to be working with. T3 can be anealed and age hardened eadily, but takes some care to not overheat it.

Learning to shoot and buck rivets takes practice and decent tools. Pneumatic and hydraulic riverters are nice to have, but hand tools are fine until you get into larger aluminum rivets or steel or monel rivets.

 

[EdT]

If you google "Ron Covell" bomber seats " you can find some excerpts from one of his DVDs on bead rolling. The second half of the clip is about making bomber seats. He shows how it's done and also sell plans for the seats. That'll give you an idea of what's involved.

 

[dv8customs]

Jamey Jordan has some videos that may be helpful. Or at least enough pictures to get the creativity flowing

http://www.handmadeseatco.com/

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Jamey Jordan has some videos that may be helpful. Or at least enough pictures to get the creativity flowing

http://www.handmadeseatco.com/

Starting out with a bench is rather ambitious!

Really though, JJ makes bead rolling look like coloring with a crayon.

 

[hawkeye2]

Ron Covell makes it look easy

 

[Keyblazer]

I'm learning Aluminum too.
Also Learning its like making omlets tho...

A Bead Roller is a priority I think.
Maybe an English wheel, planishing hammer, sheet metal brake, etc..
Most Bomber seats have flanged holes, so dimple dies, or flange with the bead roller.
I have bought or made most of the above and still feel like I need more!

I agree with the suggestion of 3003, and 0.040" would probably be fine.

 

[Alfisti]

One of best things you can do is to go down to your nearest aircraft parts suppliers and ask them which local general aviation shop has the best sheet metal guy. Go to him and ask if you can look over his shoulder, ask him what tools he has and perhaps more importantly what you don't need. I did this many years ago and it was the best thing I did. There's no substitute for experienced advice. This guy has now become a good friend and a constant source of information and advice. In regards to tools etc try going to Yardstore.com they sell used aircraft tools, a good way to get reasonable priced tools. Finally there's no substitute for hours spent at the bench working on test pieces.

 

[Gore]

Thanks for the responses guys, I didn't mean to "check out" of this thread, just got busy with work and whatnot and couldn't find the time to post.

I currently have a bead roller, but need more dies, and a solid rivet kit (Eastwood)...as well as snips, saws, and a mig (with spool if needed).

Shopping for dimple dies and considering the punch/bead combo dies, as well as a horizontal/vertical bandsaw.

I could see making a brake...or buying a cheap one.

Right now my first project idea is actually going to be a table/desk, and I want to do the legs similar to this

https://goo.gl/images/7Zqe3t

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

A cheap dimple die can be made from a tow ball and appropriate size bearing race.

 

[Gore]

A cheap dimple die can be made from a tow ball and appropriate size bearing race.

While I always appreciate the ingenuity and advice...I want to invest in some quality tools that I can continue to use as I get better.

 

[JC23]

Eastwood has a few vids you may use. One on rivet basics.

And this on making a Bomber seat.

Good luck!

 

[cvairwerks]

Kent White has a number of good videos on metal working, and has a good selection of quality tools available at his website, Tinmantech.com , and he does various classes too.

 

[rsanter]

NorCal where?
I have a bead roller and a magbrake you can use if you want

You need to come up with a design first. Mock it in cardboard or even thin plywood

Look up hammerforms, you can work aluminum edge shapes with hammer forms to,some up,with some cool,stuff

Go to a site called metalmeet and study some of the old threads, you will learn a lot

 

[kkroger]

I'd say you need a rivet gun kit, gun, bucking bars, stuff like that, Aircraft Spruce sells the Redbox 2x 3x and 4x guns for a reasonable cost, also good price on rivets by the pound, a couple nice flare dies and punches (Mittler makes a nice one step punch and flare..) A Bead roller, I got a Mittler 36" powered roller the Jamey Jordan Model with the stand and all that... I picked up some rolls at that time, came with the JJ art rolls, I added a half inch bead, a tipping set and a 1/4" step.. since added the Mittler/Lazze Flame dies and Lazze tipping... for seats you might want to look into some of the wire edge rolls... Mittler makes a bunch of dies and Lazze dies under license. as well as some Covell dies. a good rivet hand squeezer, for fastening the seats down you might look at adding some rivetnut setters and inserts.

 

[kkroger]

Mittler is also hosting a Jamey Jordan metal clinic in april in Wright City Mo according to their recent mailing.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I'd say you need a rivet gun kit, gun, bucking bars, stuff like that, Aircraft Spruce sells the Redbox 2x 3x and 4x guns for a reasonable cost, also good price on rivets by the pound, a couple nice flare dies and punches (Mittler makes a nice one step punch and flare..) A Bead roller, I got a Mittler 36" powered roller the Jamey Jordan Model with the stand and all that... I picked up some rolls at that time, came with the JJ art rolls, I added a half inch bead, a tipping set and a 1/4" step.. since added the Mittler/Lazze Flame dies and Lazze tipping... for seats you might want to look into some of the wire edge rolls... Mittler makes a bunch of dies and Lazze dies under license. as well as some Covell dies. a good rivet hand squeezer, for fastening the seats down you might look at adding some rivetnut setters and inserts.

With regards to the bead roller, do you find the 36" throat has been beneficial, or do you think you could've gotten away with the 24" throat?

 

[kkroger]

I feel that the 36" throat is quite beneficial, especially when working a panel with a circular pattern that is 48" wide... if the circular pattern is close to one edge of the panel I would never get it turned in the machine. if all you do is straight beads you can reach to the center of a 4' sheet with a 24" machine... To be honest I would have happily shelled out for a 48" roller if one had been available at the time I purchased...

 

[hop up]

We have made the bomber bucket and benches out of .063 3003 alum. I believe anything thinner is going to cause the seat to be weak , unless you add extra brackets..
I didn’t see on the needed tool lis a Whitney no 5 punch and a bucket full of Clecos clamps.
The key to making them is putting the seat together with the clecos and this will help you figure things out as you go. The reason I say this you can take the seat apart if needed . This also show how you’ll have many blind rivets that have to be bucked first before other layers of alum go over or will be riveted in a layer.

 

[kkroger]

A Roper Whitney No 5 Jr hand punch is nice, a Rivet Fan is nice too and several packs of double ended 1/8" drills, Clecos, Cleco Pliers, Automatic Center Punch... May as well throw in the plasma table and I would opt for 5052 instead of 3003, holds up better IMHO...

 

[Gore]

NorCal where?
I have a bead roller and a magbrake you can use if you want

You need to come up with a design first. Mock it in cardboard or even thin plywood

Look up hammerforms, you can work aluminum edge shapes with hammer forms to,some up,with some cool,stuff

Go to a site called metalmeet and study some of the old threads, you will learn a lot

I'm in Fairfield, whereabouts are you?

I am still trying to come up with a design, but life keps getting in the way of my garage time lol.

Thanks for the tips on the hammerforms and Metalmeet. I actually almost bought some hammer forms awhile back to make some bike parts...seems like now is as good a time as any.

 

[Gore]

I feel that the 36" throat is quite beneficial, especially when working a panel with a circular pattern that is 48" wide... if the circular pattern is close to one edge of the panel I would never get it turned in the machine. if all you do is straight beads you can reach to the center of a 4' sheet with a 24" machine... To be honest I would have happily shelled out for a 48" roller if one had been available at the time I purchased...

Mine is a 27"...figure I can learn on it and then upgrade down the road if necessary.

 

[kkroger]

Mine is a 27"...figure I can learn on it and then upgrade down the road if necessary.

27" Eastwood? get their motor kit for it... you will want it, and the fancy roll kit they sell, the bonus with the more spendy models (Lazze and Mittler Bros) is the shear number of rolls available, you will most likely be able to do all you would need for seats with that machine though.

 

[Gore]

27" Eastwood? get their motor kit for it... you will want it, and the fancy roll kit they sell, the bonus with the more spendy models (Lazze and Mittler Bros) is the shear number of rolls available, you will most likely be able to do all you would need for seats with that machine though.

Yes, the Eastwood, and I did plan on buying the motor for it.

I am sure I will need to research dies soon as well.

 

[kkroger]

This set of rolls will do a lot, https://www.eastwood.com/bead-roller-forming-dies.html
by contrast a set of rolls for one profile for my mittler tool is $95 plus shipping so 9 profiles and a poly roll is a good deal at $255...

I use two tipping dies together a lot of the time, Skateboard wheels a lot, and now the LAZZE Flame dies and Tipping Set, Quarter inch step dies, and a half inch bead die... can do a LOT with just those

 

[Gore]

This set of rolls will do a lot, https://www.eastwood.com/bead-roller-forming-dies.html
by contrast a set of rolls for one profile for my mittler tool is $95 plus shipping so 9 profiles and a poly roll is a good deal at $255...

I use two tipping dies together a lot of the time, Skateboard wheels a lot, and now the LAZZE Flame dies and Tipping Set, Quarter inch step dies, and a half inch bead die... can do a LOT with just those

That was the kit I had planned on...again I freely admit I don't know wtf each die does...but I know what look/pattern I like when I see it...especially the diamond/quilted look.

Any pics of what that flame die creates?

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

That was the kit I had planned on...again I freely admit I don't know wtf each die does...but I know what look/pattern I like when I see it...especially the diamond/quilted look.

Any pics of what that flame die creates?

Don't feel bad, I don't either......and I owned a Mitler Bros bead roller for a short time.