help - removing a big hub

[greyfox]

I'm trying to remove the hub from an old, large tractor loader (a TractoMoto TL-10 if you know about such things).

I got the wheel off with a 4 ft pipe wrench, a little heat, and lot's of pb blaster. not sure which of the above did the trick.

I am now trying to remove the brake drum so I can replace a wheel brake cylinder. I got one side off and repaired without a great deal of difficulty so I know what's under there. the other side is stuck. The axle is about two inch diameter, and the surface I can pull against has a 14" diameter. I've got my third puller on the job and it is the right size (at least it fits). It is an OTC 17" 13 Ton Mechanical Grip-O-Matic Puller. This is my third puller in the series of purchases to try and get this off. If you're not familiar with it, it is a $200 variety three legged puller. Good stuff. And I still can't get this to budge.

There are no snap rings or such and the brake shoes are backed off. I put a 1/2 impact wrench to it and still no joy. Lots of PB Blaster. I tried heating the hub w/ mapp gas affair. won't seem to budge. The hub is pretty massive - perhaps 1.5" thick right around the axle. I have a oxy/acet torch I could use for more heat. there are no bearings or seals (they are further inside the whole affair - recall, I've had the other one off.
I've attached a photo to show the affair.

This equipment is well made and meant to be repaired. It's just that it hasn't been for about 50 years :=)

Suggestions for next steps greatly appreciated.

 

[nissan_crawler]

Spray it with pb (I prefer kroil), Put the puller on with lots of tension, heat it with the torch, then get a BFH and beat it like it owes you money.

This is coming from the guy that couldn't get the axles out of a 9" rearend. I ended up with the housing chained to a tree, a chain around the axle going to my pickup with a friend putting tension on it, and me beating it with a 20 lb sledge for 15 minutes before it came out.

 

[Diesel-Mech]

My suggestion is to hit the drum really hard with a large sludge hammer, that usually does the trick for me or OTR truck drums that don't want to come off.

 

[J.A.F.E.]

The advice so far is exactly right. Soak it with PB Blaster or Kroil (if you can find it). Apply tension with the puller apply heat and beat the snot out of with the biggest BFH you have. Apply more PB or Kroil, more tension on the puller more BFH and repeat. Eventually it will surrender.

~Steve

 

[Blacknwhitepit]

I put a 1/2 impact wrench to it and still no joy.

Suggestions for next steps greatly appreciated.

What is the condition of your impact wrench? Try a breaker bar.

A 13 ton puller should work. The limiting factor might be how much your impact can turn it.

-BWP

 

[JeepsAreBuilt]

Oof, thats a big one. I did a hub like that recently on my old cj5. It has a tapered axle rear end with a hub thats held in place with a key and big nut at the end. Mine didnt look nearly as rusty as yours. I did not get it off, I ended up cutting it off. Well, I did find a picture of a home made puller online, and the concept looks like it'd work. You probably could do it on yours, but it'll be work to make it. Heres the pic:

 

[paramudduck]

Like they are saying tension, spray, heat, beat and repeat.

 

[krusty the clown]

there is a special puller specifically made for taper mounted drums although i doubt it's big enough for the tractor. it's perfect for the jeep though!

http://www.otctools.com/products/detail.php?id=1834

 

[nissan_crawler]

an air hammer right around the drum/axle helps break the rust loose sometimes, also. Do that with the puller holding tension.

 

[TNToy]

I'm lazy on home-repair stuff. I'd probably heat it, let it cool, PB-soak it, and let it sit for a day with the puller cranked down.

Then come back and wail on it with a BFH, crank down the puller, and repeat until it asplodes in your face.

 

[Jbullfrog]

I second the air hammer with a blunt tip chisel or wide bearing punch to vibrate around the seam while it is under tension. I have done this with the drums on our gravity wagons and to get fan pulleys loose on bins.

 

[GDA]

I second the air hammer with a blunt tip chisel or wide bearing punch to vibrate around the seam while it is under tension. I have done this with the drums on our gravity wagons and to get fan pulleys loose on bins.

+1 on getting some type of very sharp shocks to the bearing/axle surface while under high tension - air chisel, 10lb sledge or the like. This should help break the grip and get it free.

 

[jay50]

+1 on getting some type of very sharp shocks to the bearing/axle surface while under high tension - air chisel, 10lb sledge or the like. This should help break the grip and get it free.

Yeah, use the air hammer.
You guys recommending the use of a BFM need to use your heads....

BFH....makes my carpal tunnel flair up just thinking about it...

 

[rsanter]

if I am looking at this correctly, you have the center hub (orange) and the drum is centered over that. one trick I learned for drums that have been on for a long time is to use a wire brush/wire wheel at the point where the hub and drum are mated. get all the rust off that you can as the rust makes the diameter of the hum slightly bigger and you seem to have a problem I refer to as 'rust holding hands'.
once you have cleaned the rust from this area you want to soak with PB blaster (or similar) and keep the tension on the drum with the puller.
as far the the BFH, I really hate to see people do that. I have seen people beat on something so much that they end up damaging it when that could have been avoided. the point of the BFH is to apply a shock that will break the hold of the rust. this can be done with a large mallet without the fear of damaging an otherwise good part.

in a situation like this you have to apply sufficient force to get the job done, but I would like to say that brains always beats brawn. work the problem without beating the snot out of it

bob

 

[paramudduck]

Actually I like to use dead blow hammers on these things. Seems like more jar with less impact damage. All you are trying to do is start a vibration to let the PB Blaster/Koil seep into crannies and lubricate the surfaces.

 

[gofastman]

I really have nothing usefull to add, but the wire brush technique mentioned earlier works well

 

[greyfox]

An update:
1st, thanks for all the advice and the implicit moral support. one could become depressed over such matters.

The hub is no yet removed from its holding but I suspect persistence will be the solution.

I have smacked it a few times, and taken a blunted, handheld airhammer to it. and of course heat and periodic wettings of PB Blaster. I've ordered some Kroil and will give that a try too. Sounds like a good thing to have in the arsenal.

I don't know about the torque on the impact wrench, but I'm evaluating that. It is a fairly new, porter cable 1/2" job. I'm looking into something w/ more rated torque.

I don't think the wire brush technique quite applies and is probably because the picture isn't quite clear. The ring to which the puller is attached, is bolted (internally) to the drum so the part that needs to separate is right around the axle itself and there is a bit of a gap for an 1/8 inch or so. I've have probed in there with a scriber to scratch off what I could.

I like the pyrotechnic solution, but failed to install the charge on initial assembly 50 years ago.

I'm going to just keep repeating all of the above.

I wonder if, in addition to heat on that part that surrounds the axle, a little dry ice held to the axle immediately thereafter might induce a little separation. Any experience w/ that?

 

[greyfox]

I just noticed my 1/2" impact wrench is rated at 400 ft/lbs. I see 3/4" inch varieties at 2 to 3 times that. Any recommendations? I'm always up for buying a bigger tool.

 

[Diesel-Mech]

I just noticed my 1/2" impact wrench is rated at 400 ft/lbs. I see 3/4" inch varieties at 2 to 3 times that. Any recommendations? I'm always up for buying a bigger tool.

Get a better 1/2", I recommend either a Snap-on MG725 or IR 2135TiMax. My MG725 has damn near put my 3/4" in to retirement.

 

[Elroy]

As rusted as that thng is Elroy would recommend you ditch the screw puller and get a hydraulic puller with some balls

 

[paramudduck]

What drives you crazy is spending days on them. Then you walk over and give it a shake and it falls off.

 

[chammyman]

I would be using the BFH myself on that.

As nissan said hit it like it owes you money, bea careful though, I have never shattered a drum or hub but I have split and snapped a fair few sledgehammers, I'm quite big and can swing them with considerable force though

 

[Labrat]

Try heating it and Beeswax instead of PB. Also keep heating the the Hub and cooling the shaft with dry ice several times. This expands the Hub and shrinks the shaft creating movement between the shaft and hub once there is some movement it will come off. Work Smart not hard.

 

[JeepsAreBuilt]

A friend of mine told me to use propane to freeze the axle shaft. Not sure what kind of equipment is required to do that.

 

[rsanter]

any compressed gas you release to a lower pressure will have a cooling effect

bob

 

[nissan_crawler]

I would be quite leery of heating something like a brake drum or axleshaft up and then force cooling it.

 

[Labrat]

Hitting the axle with a BFH will damage the bearing. I would only use a puller and heat and cooling and Beeswax instead of PB. Be patient I bet you have more time than money. Also this will not shock cool the steel and cause it to crack. Work smart not hard.

 

[nissan_crawler]

beeswax won't do anything over a good penetrant. Also, good luck ruining a tractor bearing by swinging a hammer at the brake drum.

 

[garfunkle24]

I'm with the penetrant, puller tension, heat, beat and repeat option. I also agree with Elroy about getting a hydraulic puller on the job. That's exactly what those things are designed for, after all.

Also, in this application I very much doubt that a BFH would hurt anything. Always seems to me that a steel-on-steel beating with a BFH shocks things a lot more than any dead blow does.

Edit: Not that it's recommended, but beating on the end of the puller helps too. Soak everything in penetrating oil, heat up with a torch, put tension on the puller and beat both the work piece and the end of the puller. Keep taking up any slack that develops in the puller and adding heat as needed. Eventually you will get it off.

Please note that this will mushroom the s**t out of the end of the puller and there is the danger of flying hardened steel etc.

 

[gofastman]

try puting some heavy duty grease or antiseize on the puller threads, the vast majoraty of torque is "used up" overcoming the friction of the threads, also i realy hope you are wearing saftey glasses and a face sheild, shrapnell from one of those things breaking is no joke

 

[eschoendorff]

try puting some heavy duty grease or antiseize on the puller threads, the vast majoraty of torque is "used up" overcoming the friction of the threads, also i realy hope you are wearing saftey glasses and a face sheild, shrapnell from one of those things breaking is no joke

Roger that. You have a shitload of stored energy in that thing... when it goes, LOOK OUT!

 

[55dude]

i agree with labrat on removal, apply heat and some beeswax and repeat. all the dry will do is rob the spindle of any existing btu's that have tranfered into the spindle from heating the drum. BFH'S have their place but these parts are probably near impossible to locate and if located $$$$. what about contacting a local antique tractor club for advice. make sure you post a pic of the 2 pieces seperated.

 

[greyfox]

Here is an update.

I think I've exhausted what I can do with a 3 jaw puller. I think the buggered business end in photo 3xpuller tells the story. I made sure the threads were lubed up well, took it in as far as I could w/ a 3/4" impact wrench, then a substantial breaker w/ a 3 ft pipe extension . . . no joy.

I've heated w/ mapp gas, then converted that technique to oxy/acetylene alternated with dry ice to the shaft and vice versa. I've used liberal amounts of kroil and pb.

I've done the jackhammer tapping. I've whacked in places I thought safe with a not so big bfh (4lb) (I might not be able to get whatever I might break on a 50 year old machine.

I've inserted liberal doses of patience and waiting.

I've fabricated a puller modified from concept suggested by JeepsAreBuilt. The jig photo shows the setup. It consists of 3/4-16 couplers and threaded rod stock (Grade 8), a 3/8 steel plate back plate, and a harbor freight, 20 ton jack. The deform photo shows the results after jacking what I could with the supplied handles and then extending another 3 feet of leverage with my majic extendalator universal power pipe. Still no joy.

So I'm thinking of doing one of three things and would appreciate your thoughts.

1) Give up and convert the brake system to work on only one side. The machine currently has no brakes so that would be an improvement. The left cylinder which I was able to get to was pretty much a blob of corrosion. I was able to get a replacement cylinder and replace it. That's what I'm trying to do on the right side.

2) Make a thicker backplate. The machine shop that made the current one thought the 3/8 (my idea) might deform. It did. So I could go back and either get this one straightend and reinforced or make a thicker (3/4" ?) plate. My concern is, I've already cranked pretty hard on that 20ton jack.

3) Use the same design, but get a thicker place, probably longer rod stock, and a bigger jack (every shop needs a 50ton right honey?).

Suggestions?

 

[nissan_crawler]

I like option #3. I would be getting an air powered ram so I could be nowhere close to the damn thing if it did let go. Then let it stay pressurized and walk away if it doesn't go.

 

[83diesel]

Have you pulled off the other side yet or have you not had any success on either side. Some old drums you had to knock the studs out to remove the drum without applying 100 tons of force and damn near melting the drum to get it off.

 

[beelsr]

if you try #3, leave it in place for a while. I was pulling a hub once and having a hard time with it. The phone rang and I left it. 10 minutes later... POP!

 

[Elroy]

Now you're getting after it. Good for you !!

As far as the plate bending, try this: Get some steel angle and drill two holes in it that matches the bolt pattern. Run the angle so it's under the base plate of the jack. You know, 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock AND 11 o'clock to 7 o'clock.

Don't forget to run all the nuts up tight as all their pull will add together. If you can rotate the assembly, make sure the pump is not sucking air.

You also might consider getting an air hammer with a real long rod and work it over the hub area.

One of your original photos showed the key in the shaft. It probably wouldn't hurt to drill that out. It would allow some lube to get up inside where it's needed and may help reduce some of the radial pressure on the tapper.

Don't forget the heat.

Elroy understands that you had the other side apart. Are there any retainers through the backing plate that could be cut to release the shoes? Look the other side over real well as it might give you some additional ideas.

 

[greyfox]

I did remove the other side without any great problem and with a smaller, 3 jaw puller.

 

[greyfox]

Elroy, since the hub will still rotate, I don't think the shoes are holding anything here.

I do like your suggestion of drilling out the key. As I recall from the other side (reassembled some time ago), the mating surface of these hub and shaft (and the key goes most of the way) is around 6 inches. With key out, I could squish some of that majic rust disolver (kroil or pb) up there me thinks. I think I will try that before I proceed with a larger jack since that is going to involve 1) another jack 2) more rod stock (what I have is cut too short), another plate . . .

thanks to all for your suggestions. it isn't off yet.

 

[bushhawg73]

Have you considered purchasing a new drum and cutting the old one off with a torch. The price of the new drum may be less that the price of the new tools. But we all need an excuse to buy a new tool now and then.