help with 240 v, double throw wifi switch

[johndallak]

I want to replace the old ceramic switch with a new wifi switch, 240v, double throw. There is no neutral wire. I haven't found an electrician yet that has a solution for this. There are 2, 110 lines coming down into the box from the breaker panel. Then the same 2 lines come out of the switch and go to the pressure switch which controls the on off function of the pump. 7 amp pump load. I want to control the on/off switch from outside since I have to turn in on/off every time I want to use our irrigation or outside hose barbs. Inside house is city water. Please help!!!

 

[mike93lx]

Is the only roadblock adding a neutral?

 

[johndallak]

Is the only roadblock adding a neutral?

Thanks, I actually haven't found a solution for with or without having a neutral. I'd likely have to hire an electrician to pull the neutral and he said he'd have to pull a permit, and maybe some other stuff to satisfy code. I'm trying to do this as a do-it-yourself project since it would be way more than I want to spend to do what I describe, above. That being said, the panel is also in the basement, maybe 25 ft. max. from the switch. And the metal conduit should have just the 2 wires in it all the way to the panel, correct? Not sure if you're getting at me running the neutral. thanks!

 

[rlitman]

I don't see the problem. It's not a 120V switch, so a neutral isn't relevant. You just need a 240V 2-pole switch. The problem I see is that typical WiFi switches (at least the one's I'm aware of) are 1-pole. That will "work", but it leaves one line live even when off, which isn't safe, so I don't recommend it.

The cheapest solution would be to use a 1-pole 240V WiFi switch, and have it control a 240V coil 2-pole contactor like this:

The problem with that, is that requires a very large box and it needs to be bolted down, since the live terminals are so exposed. However, you can get contactors with better coverage like this:


After all that, the easiest solution would be to use a 240V WiFi 2-pole circuit breaker as a switch:

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks, I actually haven't found a solution for with or without having a neutral. I'd likely have to hire an electrician to pull the neutral and he said he'd have to pull a permit, and maybe some other stuff to satisfy code. I'm trying to do this as a do-it-yourself project since it would be way more than I want to spend to do what I describe, above. That being said, the panel is also in the basement, maybe 25 ft. max. from the switch. And the metal conduit should have just the 2 wires in it all the way to the panel, correct? Not sure if you're getting at me running the neutral. thanks!

Yes. If this was mine and a neutral would solve the problem, I'd just add one. But if you aren't comfortable with working in a panel, or doing it unpermitted, that's a different story.

That yellow wiring is odd

 

[jlv03]

Is there a receptacle or any other circuit nearby? I'd put in a contactor and run the contactor coil via a smart switch or smart plug.

 

[johndallak]

Is there a receptacle or any other circuit nearby? I'd put in a contactor and run the contactor coil via a smart switch or smart plug.

yes, see outlet in upper left of photo. But I'd need details on what you suggest and how to wire. Keep in mind, we can't keep one leg of the 220 live going to the pressure switch.

 

[johndallak]

I don't see the problem. It's not a 120V switch, so a neutral isn't relevant. You just need a 240V 2-pole switch. The problem I see is that typical WiFi switches (at least the one's I'm aware of) are 1-pole. That will "work", but it leaves one line live even when off, which isn't safe, so I don't recommend it.

The cheapest solution would be to use a 1-pole 240V WiFi switch, and have it control a 240V coil 2-pole contactor like this:

The problem with that, is that requires a very large box and it needs to be bolted down, since the live terminals are so exposed. However, you can get contactors with better coverage like this:


After all that, the easiest solution would be to use a 240V WiFi 2-pole circuit breaker as a switch:

do you have a link for the tuya product? Where does this get installed in the system?

 

[rlitman]

do you have a link for the tuya product? Where does this get installed in the system?

The picture was from this smart breaker that would directly replace your switch.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093P4FHXC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

But don't read that as a specific product recommendation. There are loads of these DIN rail smart breakers on the market. They fit nicely into a DIN rail box like this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09579YYN9/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[johndallak]

I don't see the problem. It's not a 120V switch, so a neutral isn't relevant. You just need a 240V 2-pole switch. The problem I see is that typical WiFi switches (at least the one's I'm aware of) are 1-pole. That will "work", but it leaves one line live even when off, which isn't safe, so I don't recommend it.

The cheapest solution would be to use a 1-pole 240V WiFi switch, and have it control a 240V coil 2-pole contactor like this:

The problem with that, is that requires a very large box and it needs to be bolted down, since the live terminals are so exposed. However, you can get contactors with better coverage like this:


After all that, the easiest solution would be to use a 240V WiFi 2-pole circuit breaker as a swi

The picture was from this smart breaker that would directly replace your switch.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093P4FHXC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

But don't read that as a specific product recommendation. There are loads of these DIN rail smart breakers on the market. They fit nicely into a DIN rail box like this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09579YYN9/?tag=atomicindus08-20

even though the picture of the tuya contactor shows a neutral connection, I can just connect both 110 to the top and bottom on the contactor? thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don't see the problem. It's not a 120V switch, so a neutral isn't relevant.

the wifi switches hes finding probably require 120v for the controls/electronics....

You just need a 240V 2-pole switch. The problem I see is that typical WiFi switches (at least the one's I'm aware of) are 1-pole. That will "work", but it leaves one line live even when off, which isn't safe, so I don't recommend it.

The cheapest solution would be to use a 1-pole 240V WiFi switch, and have it control a 240V coil 2-pole contactor like this:

The problem with that, is that requires a very large box and it needs to be bolted down, since the live terminals are so exposed. However, you can get contactors with better coverage like this:


After all that, the easiest solution would be to use a 240V WiFi 2-pole circuit breaker as a switch:

 

[rlitman]

even though the picture of the tuya contactor shows a neutral connection, I can just connect both 110 to the top and bottom on the contactor? thanks

It's assuming you have European power with 240V on one leg and a neutral leg. In your case, just ignore the "N" markings, since neither of your legs are grounded. 240V is still 240V.

 

[rlitman]

the wifi switches hes finding probably require 120v for the controls/electronics....

Sure, and 120V WiFi switches would overcomplicate the setup.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I want to replace the old ceramic switch with a new wifi switch, 240v, double throw. There is no neutral wire. I haven't found an electrician yet that has a solution for this. There are 2, 110 lines coming down into the box from the breaker panel. Then the same 2 lines come out of the switch and go to the pressure switch which controls the on off function of the pump. 7 amp pump load. I want to control the on/off switch from outside since I have to turn in on/off every time I want to use our irrigation or outside hose barbs. Inside house is city water. Please help!!!

why do you have to turn off the pump after every time you want to use irrigation or outside hose barbs? why not just let the pump run until it fills the tank and then shuts off?

 

[rlitman]

why do you have to turn off the pump after every time you want to use irrigation or outside hose barbs? why not just let the pump run until it fills the tank and then shuts off?

I can't answer for him, but I use a WiFi ball valve actuator on my air compressor, and have 12V WiFi switches operate ball valves for my hose bibs. It's nice to be able to control these things remotely. I can set a timer to run a sprinkler, or have an automation that turns them off if when I forget to. I use a 24V controlled contactor with WiFi controls on my own irrigation pump.

 

[johndallak]

why do you have to turn off the pump after every time you want to use irrigation or outside hose barbs? why not just let the pump run until it fills the tank and then shuts off?

THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION. NORMALLY THAT WOULD BE FINE BUT RIGHT NOW A SMALL AMOUNT OF WATER IS LEAKING DOWN IN THE WELL FROM THE OLD CASING, ETC. I HAVE TO REPLACE THE ENTIRE WELL PUMP, ETC. TO FIX THE PROBLEM WHICH I WILL TO LATER THIS YEAR. BUT FOR NOW, I NEED TO SHUT OFF THE PUMP TO KEEP IT FROM CYCLING ON/OFF DUE TO THE SLOW LEAK UNDERGROUND. GOOD OBSERVATION.

 

[johndallak]

why do you have to turn off the pump after every time you want to use irrigation or outside hose barbs? why not just let the pump run until it fills the tank and then shuts off?

AND I KNOW IT'S A FIRST WORLD PROBLEM, BUT IT IS PRETTY INCONVENIENT TO KEEP RUNNING DOWNSTAIRS EVERY TIME WE WANT TO USE THE HOSE BARBS OR USE THE IRRIGATION SYSTEM.

 

[mike93lx]

Turn off your caps lock

 

[johndallak]

Turn off your caps lock

sorry, it was from another work email I was sending.

 

[mike93lx]

sorry, it was from another work email I was sending.

All good. Go yell at coworkers, not us!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION. NORMALLY THAT WOULD BE FINE BUT RIGHT NOW A SMALL AMOUNT OF WATER IS LEAKING DOWN IN THE WELL FROM THE OLD CASING, ETC. I HAVE TO REPLACE THE ENTIRE WELL PUMP, ETC. TO FIX THE PROBLEM WHICH I WILL TO LATER THIS YEAR. BUT FOR NOW, I NEED TO SHUT OFF THE PUMP TO KEEP IT FROM CYCLING ON/OFF DUE TO THE SLOW LEAK UNDERGROUND. GOOD OBSERVATION.

something doesnt make sense with that. why would water leaking into the well from the old casing cause the pump to frequently cycle?

did you mean water is draining out of the tank and back into the well? if so then that would mean the check valve is failing or non existent. i cant tell in the pics if you have one or not but i would start with that instead of the electrical upgrades. the check valve should be near the well head. it has a flap that allows water to pump into the tank but prevents water from flowing back into the well once the pump shuts off... perhaps they installed the check valve at the bottom of the well above the pump.... if so you could just add one near the well head...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

sorry, it was from another work email I was sending.

a work email you say? must be pretty heated!!

 

[johndallak]

something doesnt make sense with that. why would water leaking into the well from the old casing cause the pump to frequently cycle?

did you mean water is draining out of the tank and back into the well? if so then that would mean the check valve is failing or non existent. i cant tell in the pics if you have one or not but i would start with that instead of the electrical upgrades. the check valve should be near the well head. it has a flap that allows water to pump into the tank but prevents water from flowing back into the well once the pump shuts off... perhaps they installed the check valve at the bottom of the well above the pump.... if so you could just add one near the well head...

The brass in line piece had Sta-Rite on it and I found the item online, which is the 1 pic. Spring check valve. I hear what you are saying, with pressure switch in the pump off position, the only way water could leak out of the casing would be backwards from the bladder tank. I could unscrew at the union. See if water comes out from the tank. Or your suggestion?

 

[johndallak]

The brass in line piece had Sta-Rite on it and I found the item online, which is the 1 pic. Spring check valve. I hear what you are saying, with pressure switch in the pump off position, the only way water could leak out of the casing would be backwards from the bladder tank. I could unscrew at the union. See if water comes out from the tank. Or your suggestion?

 

[AffableCurmudgeon]

This looks like it does not require a neutral. Just two hot legs for the 240.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WC2BT85/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Migro Smart Wi-Fi Controller 240VAC - Migro

migromifi.com

 

[johndallak]

This looks like it does not require a neutral. Just two hot legs for the 240.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WC2BT85/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Migro Smart Wi-Fi Controller 240VAC - Migro

migromifi.com

Great option from checking online. Thanks much!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The brass in line piece had Sta-Rite on it and I found the item online, which is the 1 pic. Spring check valve. I hear what you are saying, with pressure switch in the pump off position, the only way water could leak out of the casing would be backwards from the bladder tank. I could unscrew at the union. See if water comes out from the tank. Or your suggestion?

Yes that’s the check valve.

Yes you could undo the union and see if water is coming out

Sometimes check valves get gummed up and clogged with garbage minerals etc. causing them to not properly seal. Or the spring gives out

 

[dogdog]

Double pole single throw not double throw

 

[alfredeneuman]

After all that, the easiest solution would be to use a 240V WiFi 2-pole circuit breaker as a switch:

That particular circuit breaker doesn't have a listing that's acceptable in the US.
A "CE" listing is only accepted in the European Union

 

[rlitman]

That particular circuit breaker doesn't have a listing that's acceptable in the US.
A "CE" listing is only accepted in the European Union

It also has scary PoziDriv screws that aren't Phillips. If you must have something that's got an NRTL marking, look at products from Span or Leviton. Otherwise, do what you want with the link, just don't use it as intended as a circuit breaker OCPD.

 

[walta]

This unit does not require a neutral if the $250 price tag fits in your budget.

https://linearwireless.com/products/migro-wi-fi-smart-controller-208-240vac-63a-load-4poles/





Walta

 

[dave*99]

As mentioned above, the Migro unit may work. Amazon price is $129

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WC2BT85/?tag=atomicindus08-20

And this is $53

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VS7SRHN/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The control electronics are powered by 240 in this diagram.






Look for swimming pool pump controls that are WiFi controlled. Many pools have 240V pumps.

 

[FredWanaker]

Double pole single throw not double throw

I was having trouble with that too and about to ask the question myself. If it is a single throw, and the OP does not know the difference maybe he should hire an electrician. If it is a double throw then what else does it connect to? Or is it a center off and one side is orphaned? What exactly does the OP think he has?

 

[dave*99]

I was having trouble with that too and about to ask the question myself. If it is a single throw, and the OP does not know the difference maybe he should hire an electrician. If it is a double throw then what else does it connect to? Or is it a center off and one side is orphaned? What exactly does the OP think he has?

It is is a double pole single throw. Simply a 2 pole On/Off switch for his pump as shown in the photo:

 

[ripperd]

Dont forget you can also make 120v from the 240 legs with a simple, cheap transformer. You could use that to power any control electronics.

 

[dave*99]

If you don't need WiFi and would like to use a key fob transmitter, this may work. $25

This guy controls his dust collector with one.

Here is the remote controlled switch:

Amazon.com

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I don't see the problem. It's not a 120V switch, so a neutral isn't relevant. You just need a 240V 2-pole switch. The problem I see is that typical WiFi switches (at least the one's I'm aware of) are 1-pole. That will "work", but it leaves one line live even when off, which isn't safe, so I don't recommend it.

The cheapest solution would be to use a 1-pole 240V WiFi switch, and have it control a 240V coil 2-pole contactor like this:

The problem with that, is that requires a very large box and it needs to be bolted down, since the live terminals are so exposed. However, you can get contactors with better coverage like this:


After all that, the easiest solution would be to use a 240V WiFi 2-pole circuit breaker as a switch:

I would absolutely use something like that (contactor, breaker, etc) and not direct to a toy switch to run a motor load. it's also easy and cheap to get a 120v or 240v coil contactor instead of the standard 24v if you want that for ease of use. just label it for the next guy.

something doesnt make sense with that. why would water leaking into the well from the old casing cause the pump to frequently cycle?

did you mean water is draining out of the tank and back into the well? if so then that would mean the check valve is failing or non existent. i cant tell in the pics if you have one or not but i would start with that instead of the electrical upgrades. the check valve should be near the well head. it has a flap that allows water to pump into the tank but prevents water from flowing back into the well once the pump shuts off... perhaps they installed the check valve at the bottom of the well above the pump.... if so you could just add one near the well head...

I've seen it happen with a rusted-through pitless adapter as well. pump check valve doesn't help if it's upstream.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

keep in mind if you dont deal with the check valve issue, and just go the wifi switch route, youll be wasting lots of electricity to keep pumping water back into the tank over and over again. better to fix the check valve issue so your pump can fill the tank and shutoff when full

 

[rlitman]

Dont forget you can also make 120v from the 240 legs with a simple, cheap transformer. You could use that to power any control electronics.

If you're going to use a transformer for control electronics, just step it down to 24VAC.

 

[dave*99]

This seems to be a plumbing problem rather than an electrical problem. I'd fix that first and perhaps all these electrical gyrations go away.
I had the same problem with my air compressor. The check valve was not sealing well and the compressor cycled unnecessarily. Easy fix.