Help with engineering

[wortrod]

Good morning,
Been awhile since I have posted. I have a stick build 60x30 that was on my property when I bought it. I have cleaned it up and posted pictures here on the forum over the years. Recently the county told me that it isn't permitted correctly. Long story short, and lots of money pent already, does anyone have any contact for a structural engineer? I have plans done from a draftsman that was not done up to par, I need an engineer to do some calcs to send to the draftsman to change the plans. Apparently since COVID there are a ton of government and big commercial projects so none of the local guys will take on a small project like mine. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[strutaeng]

What State are you in?

 

[jack stand]

I'd approach it as it's existing prior to your ownership, hasn't failed or sagged in these years and unless it's specifically written into the jurisdictions language on these matters to **** off politely.
Then there's the question of the settlement agent and their title search. Should this have shown up? Finally any title insurance? I'm not a lawyer but it sure seems like this has to do with your purchase the same as previous liens or judgments against the property and be a legitimate claim against these agents and company.
Perhaps cooler heads can settle this if you offered to pay for a building permit.?
I'm assuming that this is a very normal structure that's built properly with no weird load conditions. If the framing is "open" a visual inspection by their official can't find any red flags.....
Good luck with the "machine" that's supposed to work FOR you.

 

[duneslider]

Engineers have to be licensed in your state for any thing they say to matter. You need to let people know what state you are in if you want any sort of help.

One avenue you might try is if changes are going to be required, you might want to work with a contractor who has a connection with an engineer. When I built my house I got my plans through the engineering process much faster and less expensive once the GC made a call. Now that I have worked with that engineer they will take my calls and talk anytime where as previously I was getting pushed off due to how busy they were.

 

[Hooked]

From you comment, I'm guessing all your 'improvements' have been made without a permit. Is the permitting agency requiring engineering approvals/drawings for the improvements or for the structure in general? If they are after the structure in general it seems to me this falls under some grandfather clause since the building was there well before you purchased the property. If it's for the improvements, why are they just now coming after you for permits when you've been making changes for several years. Seems odd to me.
In order to get the necessary permit(s) are engineer approved drawings required by the agency or just peace of mind for you?
Good luck as some cities/counties/etc can be a bit&h to deal with.

 

[wortrod]

Thank you for the replies. To answer a couple of them: The building is in good shape, with finished walls and ceiling. It is located in near Fresno California. It is going to need some improvements, such as grading and footings. I have a contractor I have been working with but all of his normal engineers won't take on such a small project. The original draftsman that did the plans added sheer walls to the middle of the garage in the plans, which obviously won't fit the objective of the building. I need a structural engineer licensed in Ca that can provide calcs to show the load of the roof not requiring the sheer walls. Added nail patterns to the siding, or moving the sheer walls to the ends, just something that doesn't put perpendicular walls the in middle of my garage. As for what prompted it, the county came for permits for another project and called me out on it. They are correct and within the parameters of our county, they are even working with us but it still needs to be addressed. Thanks again for the replies.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

I'd approach it as it's existing prior to your ownership, hasn't failed or sagged in these years and unless it's specifically written into the jurisdictions language on these matters to **** off politely.
Then there's the question of the settlement agent and their title search. Should this have shown up? Finally any title insurance? I'm not a lawyer but it sure seems like this has to do with your purchase the same as previous liens or judgments against the property and be a legitimate claim against these agents and company.
Perhaps cooler heads can settle this if you offered to pay for a building permit.?
I'm assuming that this is a very normal structure that's built properly with no weird load conditions. If the framing is "open" a visual inspection by their official can't find any red flags.....
Good luck with the "machine" that's supposed to work FOR you.

I whole-hardheartedly agree with this!!!
I would be going back to the closing attorneys and title search to get this corrected.
I myself, wouldn't "politely" tell them to **** off- I'd be in their face!!!

Just more Cali political BS- I would say "sorry" you live in a fucked up state- but everybody has a choice!

 

[Bodj Built]

I whole-hardheartedly agree with this!!!
I would be going back to the closing attorneys and title search to get this corrected.
I myself, wouldn't "politely" tell them to **** off- I'd be in their face!!!

Just more Cali political BS- I would say "sorry" you live in a fucked up state- but everybody has a choice!

What type of corrections would be made by the attorneys/title office?

 

[NDJ]

So you are asking an engineer to take on the liability of a building that he didn't design and may/may not have been built to "Code" (however much code is worth). Thats probably one reason you are having trouble finding one.
That building collapses in an earthquake or some other event, Myabe someone gets hurt/killed, Then the lawyers start looking for people to sue.

 

[Garcky]

Thank you for the replies. To answer a couple of them: The building is in good shape, with finished walls and ceiling. It is located in near Fresno California. It is going to need some improvements, such as grading and footings. I have a contractor I have been working with but all of his normal engineers won't take on such a small project. The original draftsman that did the plans added sheer walls to the middle of the garage in the plans, which obviously won't fit the objective of the building. I need a structural engineer licensed in Ca that can provide calcs to show the load of the roof not requiring the sheer walls. Added nail patterns to the siding, or moving the sheer walls to the ends, just something that doesn't put perpendicular walls the in middle of my garage. As for what prompted it, the county came for permits for another project and called me out on it. They are correct and within the parameters of our county, they are even working with us but it still needs to be addressed. Thanks again for the replies.

So, it sounds like it's not the building itself that is bothering the building authorities, but changes you want to make that need engineering input? Is that correct? If so, I don't see any way to avoid that. Our problem here is that we don't know the details, so it's very difficult to offer any advice, other than "go find an engineer."

If you're going to remove structures that were designed into the building, then there's no getting around having to have an engineer approve your plans and present them in a way the local authorities will accept. That's just how it is in most jurisdictions, and California is even more determined about that than some other places.

Now, If I'm misunderstanding the situation, then maybe you can explain it in more detail.

 

[strutaeng]

Thank you for the replies. To answer a couple of them: The building is in good shape, with finished walls and ceiling. It is located in near Fresno California. It is going to need some improvements, such as grading and footings. I have a contractor I have been working with but all of his normal engineers won't take on such a small project. The original draftsman that did the plans added sheer walls to the middle of the garage in the plans, which obviously won't fit the objective of the building. I need a structural engineer licensed in Ca that can provide calcs to show the load of the roof not requiring the sheer walls. Added nail patterns to the siding, or moving the sheer walls to the ends, just something that doesn't put perpendicular walls the in middle of my garage. As for what prompted it, the county came for permits for another project and called me out on it. They are correct and within the parameters of our county, they are even working with us but it still needs to be addressed. Thanks again for the replies.

Fresno is kinda small IIRC. Are you looking locally? Engineers in the West Coast routinely work on seismic upgrades to existing buildings built before the building codes had seismic provisions. This is sort of that type of project, more or less (not sure if you follow my point.)

I'm sure you can find an engineer to help you out. You will probably have to call the smaller local firms in the nearest large city to find one.

I don't think that what the municipality is requiring is anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Garcky]

Fresno is kinda small IIRC. Are you looking locally? Engineers in the West Coast routinely work on seismic upgrades to existing buildings built before the building codes had seismic provisions. This is sort of that type of project, more or less (not sure if you follow my point.)

I'm sure you can find an engineer to help you out. You will probably have to call the smaller local firms in the nearest large city to find one.

I don't think that what the municipality is requiring is anything out of the ordinary.

Not small. Fresno metro area's population is about 750k. It has plenty of civil engineers.

 

[PCustoms]

Good morning,
Been awhile since I have posted. I have a stick build 60x30 that was on my property when I bought it. I have cleaned it up and posted pictures here on the forum over the years. Recently the county told me that it isn't permitted correctly.

When did you buy the property?

What records DO you have for the building? What does the county have?

Why is the county currently looking at if your building is permitted or not? Are you making changes to it?

 

[finn]

When did you buy the property?

What records DO you have for the building? What does the county have?

Why is the county currently looking at if your building is permitted or not? Are you making changes to it?

He says he wants to remove shear walls that were part of the original structure. Thus, the county wants a qualified engineer to verify they when the shear walls are removed, the building is still to code.

Sounds like a reasonable request from the county.

Also, sounds like he got caught with his pants down by the county, ie removing shear walls without a permit, although he did have permits for other work, which they were in the process of inspecting when they found his pants at his anoles.

The good news is that they are working with him.

 

[PCustoms]

He says he wants to remove shear walls that were part of the original structure. Thus, the county wants a qualified engineer to verify they when the shear walls are removed, the building is still to code.

Sounds like a reasonable request from the county.

Also, sounds like he got caught with his pants down by the county, ie removing shear walls without a permit, although he did have permits for other work, which they were in the process of inspecting when they found his pants at his anoles.

The good news is that they are working with him.

That's not how I read this.

I read it as the original plan had shear walls that were never put there.

I also read that he wants to add footings.

The OP is not clear what he started with or where he is trying to go and a lot of assumptions have already been made. Just asking for clarifications.

9 time south of 10 we get way ahead of reality and then the backstory comes out and changes the path of the thread.

 

[sjvicker]

I dont think they're supposed to do it but when my inspector found that the plumber cut too far into a joist he also just happened to have the business card of an engineer in his pocket that specializes in these kind of things. $200 cash, a grocery store parking lot deal and some stamped, hand sketches and we were back in business. It was a little shady but the inspector made the right call on the joist.

Whoever built your building and didn't permit it correctly or whatever's going on, its good the building dept is working with you. Maybe they know a guy? Maybe they can start with your current building drawings, minus shear walls and go from there.

 

[wortrod]

So you are asking an engineer to take on the liability of a building that he didn't design and may/may not have been built to "Code" (however much code is worth). Thats probably one reason you are having trouble finding one.
That building collapses in an earthquake or some other event, Myabe someone gets hurt/killed, Then the lawyers start looking for people to sue.

No, I just need an engineer to do some work on the plans. There just are not any to choose from locally due to my project being so small.

 

[wortrod]

That's not how I read this.

I read it as the original plan had shear walls that were never put there.

I also read that he wants to add footings.

The OP is not clear what he started with or where he is trying to go and a lot of assumptions have already been made. Just asking for clarifications.

9 time south of 10 we get way ahead of reality and then the backstory comes out and changes the path of the thread.

Sorry for any confusion. In the name of making things simple, my real question: does anyone know of a California licensed structural engineer? Our local engineers are months and months behind and/or won't take on such a small project.

 

[wortrod]

Thank you for all of the replies. I see that I have left some gaps in a long long winded story. So for the sake of keeping it simple my question is if anyone knows of a California licensed engineer that would be willing to take on a small project like mine. I can't find a local engineer that isn't over booked or willing to take on a small project.

 

[billconner]

I sympathize with your problem. Just to be sure, some architects could do this, and may not be quite as busy as structural engineers. Most building codes don't distinguish between engineers and architects. They are both "Registered Design Professionals". And, in calling architects, they might share names of suitable structural engineers. Quite a few one person home office design pros who don't advertise, don't have web sites, etc. Just a thought.

(You might find them by searching the state lists of registered design pros. Turned up some around me I'd never found otherwise.)

 

[wortrod]

I sympathize with your problem. Just to be sure, some architects could do this, and may not be quite as busy as structural engineers. Most building codes don't distinguish between engineers and architects. They are both "Registered Design Professionals". And, in calling architects, they might share names of suitable structural engineers. Quite a few one person home office design pros who don't advertise, don't have web sites, etc. Just a thought.

(You might find them by searching the state lists of registered design pros. Turned up some around me I'd never found otherwise.)

That is a great idea! Thank you!

 

[gearhead1]

There are several strategies you can employ:

1) What you’re really looking for is the Civil Engineer (or firm) that specializes in remodeling. Find local remodeling/addition contractors and ask who their civil engineer is. A friend of mine is a GC doing a lot of remodel/additions - he uses a retired civil engineer PE.

Pauli Engineering Inc. | Fresno, CA | Site Analysis | Pauli Engineering Inc.

Determine if that particular plot of land is suitable for your particular use with a site analysis from Pauli Engineering Inc. in Fresno, California.

www.pauliengineering.com

2) Do a job search for a civil engineer in Fresno to identify firms, then contact the firm.

https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Civil+Engineer&l=Fresno%2C+CA&vjk=8b2372a2e1a51f4d

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Lars-Andersen-&-Associates,-Inc.?from=mobviewjob&tk=1gpgpvl092gtf000&fromjk=8b2372a2e1a51f4d&attributionid=mobvjcmp

3) Ask the county inspectors for a recommendation

4) Find a drafter or design company and ask who they use. I have a friend that is a drafter, done that type of work for 30 years. He draws houses on the side for people. The person still has to get the drawing approved by a PE, but my point is that an experienced drafter should know what to stay away from. We had a design company draw our plans based on what we wanted, and they use a local small Civil PE firm.

 

[no704]

 

[Zeke]

I whole-hardheartedly agree with this!!!
I would be going back to the closing attorneys and title search to get this corrected.
I myself, wouldn't "politely" tell them to **** off- I'd be in their face!!!

Just more Cali political BS- I would say "sorry" you live in a fucked up state- but everybody has a choice!

First of all, Cali is a city in Columbia, and secondly, we don't use attorney's for general real estate sales and transfers. We use a recorded deed system at the county level and title insurance which clears the property for liens, that's it. If something is not disclosed, the Realtor and the seller are on the hook. A statute of limitations exists, but I don't have the details on that.

Georgia has its own drawbacks but I don't call it "fucked up'. But you have your choice.

 

[Augus7us]

Yes any time California is mentioned some folks can't keep themselves from making political comments or express how much they hate the state... And as is true of most things like this, its likely they have never even been there or had any personal experience with it. Gets old reading this **** on here.

To your question, it is totally possible they have no legal right to come after you for this. I would setup a short consultation with a lawyer to see what they had to say. Might be something as simple as your attorney sends a letter and the whole thing goes away. You can then take your time fixing the building.

Otherwise you might call a drafting association, college, trade organization, etc. and see if they can point you to someone and somewhere that can help.

 

[rharman]

He looks like a marine biologist! FORE!!!!

 

[scofo]

Looks like a latex salesman too me

 

[Wrench97]

Engineers have to be licensed in your state for any thing they say to matter. You need to let people know what state you are in if you want any sort of help.

One avenue you might try is if changes are going to be required, you might want to work with a contractor who has a connection with an engineer. When I built my house I got my plans through the engineering process much faster and less expensive once the GC made a call. Now that I have worked with that engineer they will take my calls and talk anytime where as previously I was getting pushed off due to how busy they were.

The city can matter also. For example what flies in Chester County won't in the city of Philadelphia.

 

[PCustoms]

Looks like a latex salesman too me

Vandelay Engineering

 

[PoorUB]

This building?

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/its-a-start-ca-30x63.347009/#post-7454701

Looks like you kind of screwed the pooch and did a remodel with out permits and now the city/county is playing hardball with you.

Tell the authorities you have been unable to find a cooperative engineer an ask them for advise.

 

[PoorUB]

I'd approach it as it's existing prior to your ownership, hasn't failed or sagged in these years and unless it's specifically written into the jurisdictions language on these matters to **** off politely.

The problem is the building has been remodeled since he bought the property. The OP is stuck making the county happy.

I whole-hardheartedly agree with this!!!
I would be going back to the closing attorneys and title search to get this corrected.
I myself, wouldn't "politely" tell them to **** off- I'd be in their face!!!

Just more Cali political BS- I would say "sorry" you live in a fucked up state- but everybody has a choice!

You missed the part that the building has been remodeled since he bought the property.

This isn't a California thing. This is a typical city/county government deal with code requirements and inspections. It could be right here in Fargo ND.

A buddy of mine started a home addition. He was going to run without permits. He had the addition up and shingling the roof and the city inspector walled up and asked to see his permit. Of course the inspector knew he didn't have one. The first words out of the inspector were to tear it down! There got to be quite a blow up over it, but he went and got a permit.

First thing on the permit, foundation inspection. The inspector came over and failed it, and it deserved to fail. I told him when he started the foundation was not adaquate. So now they have to back track, and build a proper foundation under and "existing" building. It would have been so much simpler to do it correctly, from the beginning. He supported the addition and had a concrete company come in with a mini-ex and dig in and pour a proper foundation.

The city inspections rode this guy's **** the whole way. They would pop in every couple days just to take a look. I worked construction for a few years and never seen inspectors on a job like this one!

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

You missed the part that the building has been remodeled since he bought the property.

This isn't a California thing. This is a typical city/county government deal with code requirements and inspections. It could be right here in Fargo ND.

A buddy of mine started a home addition. He was going to run without permits. He had the addition up and shingling the roof and the city inspector walled up and asked to see his permit. Of course the inspector knew he didn't have one. The first words out of the inspector were to tear it down! There got to be quite a blow up over it, but he went and got a permit.

First thing on the permit, foundation inspection. The inspector came over and failed it, and it deserved to fail. I told him when he started the foundation was not adaquate. So now they have to back track, and build a proper foundation under and "existing" building. It would have been so much simpler to do it correctly, from the beginning. He supported the addition and had a concrete company come in with a mini-ex and dig in and pour a proper foundation.

The city inspections rode this guy's **** the whole way. They would pop in every couple days just to take a look. I worked construction for a few years and never seen inspectors on a job like this one!

No; I didn’t miss a thing- at the time. However, further posts from the OP did dig deeper.
But, I’ll still stick with my original statement- this building has nothing to do with whatever project the OP started that brought the “OVERREACH” of the local AHJ!
With 40yrs of building experience, I know (and fight) overreach every chance I get. It’s the “nickel&dime” approach to revenue. And rarely does it boil down to “real” safety for the occupants- though that is what they harp to justify their overreach!

 

[PoorUB]

No; I didn’t miss a thing- at the time. However, further posts from the OP did dig deeper.
But, I’ll still stick with my original statement- this building has nothing to do with whatever project the OP started that brought the “OVERREACH” of the local AHJ!
With 40yrs of building experience, I know (and fight) overreach every chance I get. It’s the “nickel&dime” approach to revenue. And rarely does it boil down to “real” safety for the occupants- though that is what they harp to justify their overreach!

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but most places when you remove walls and add overhead doors you will need a permit.
Add California with it's earthquakes, even more so.

 

[jack stand]

With 40yrs of building experience, I know (and fight) overreach every chance I get. It’s the “nickel&dime” approach to revenue. And rarely does it boil down to “real” safety for the occupants- though that is what they harp to justify their overreach!

Bravo!

 

[PoorUB]

No; I didn’t miss a thing- at the time. However, further posts from the OP did dig deeper.
But, I’ll still stick with my original statement- this building has nothing to do with whatever project the OP started that brought the “OVERREACH” of the local AHJ!
With 40yrs of building experience, I know (and fight) overreach every chance I get. It’s the “nickel&dime” approach to revenue. And rarely does it boil down to “real” safety for the occupants- though that is what they harp to justify their overreach!

Bravo!

You guys can harp on about the negatives of code enforcement, but I am in a area that it is very strict, and I few miles away there is zero code enforcement. Here in the city jobs are generally done correctly and follow code.

Out of the city anything goes. I sold for a HVAC supplier and I was in houses and businesses every day with no code enforcement and it was scary the cobbled up wiring, plumbing and gas piping, oh, plus structural short comings in buildings. I saw homes I would not live in there was so many problems.

I saw jobs contractors would bid and lose, then go in afterwards to correct the mess done by the low bidder.

 

[welder57]

Contact the Permit Office and Ask if they have any knowledge on any Engineers, that have done this type of work. Also you may need to advertise in a local paper or shopper guide for an engineer that has done this type work or Check with local Contractors, some of these have Engineers on the payroll or use them per jobs when needed.

 

[NDJ]

OP, Can you tell us what would be the repercussions in your area if you just ignored or flat out refused this demand from the county ?

 

[gsmith22]

So you are asking an engineer to take on the liability of a building that he didn't design and may/may not have been built to "Code" (however much code is worth). Thats probably one reason you are having trouble finding one.
That building collapses in an earthquake or some other event, Myabe someone gets hurt/killed, Then the lawyers start looking for people to sue.

No, I just need an engineer to do some work on the plans. There just are not any to choose from locally due to my project being so small.

licensed SE here: since you are the OP and replied in this manner you need to understand that NDJ has this completely correct. Whoever you hire will in fact be responsible for the entire building and all its structural conditions moving forward. the building department will require that. its not just "work on plans". that engineer will ultimately have the liability and responsibility for making sure the building is structurally code compliant and doing that in CA with earthquake loading and detailing can sometimes be no small feat. you may think you have a small project but I can guarantee you don't because of all the unknown/undocumented conditions and modifications. moreover, I can assure you that there are probably licensed SE's locally - look to CA's board of engineering website they have an online roster with addresses and phone numbers - start calling people. be prepared for many to not be interested unless the fees justify the effort. If it was me, I would require a retainer as collecting from homeowners is always a lottery ticket.

Ultimately your hurdle will be convincing one of these lucky engineers to take on the liability of this while not making you broke. You are competeing with their time for likley commercial projects where they are probably invoicing at $250/hr (at least the qualified and completent ones who can right this ship and that you want working on this). I would budget $15k and if you get out of the engineering cheaper consider it a win.

 

[billconner]

gsmith22 speaks the truth.

I never understood if you altered the building or just want to, but may be easier and a lot cheaper to leave as when you bought it or restore your alterations.

 

[Dig Doug]

That is a great idea! Thank you!

I would take your plans and some pics and make some appointments for designers / home remodeling contractors, they will have contacts / existing relationships for engineers

your problem is you don’t have any relationships/ networking. This is going to be a simple fix to design / engineer but will cost you a lot of money, because they will over design it so it won’t fail. Guessing an engineer will cost $3,000 at a minimum plus the cost of construction.


what your describing is an interior wing walls to add sheer at a mid point in the 60 ft long side. The wing walls may be able to be made outside. Or add an outside structure to add sheer To the long walls.

question -
what are the wall heights ?

If a strict time line is made by the building department, these things can drag on and on - a simple fix is to just add the “wing walls “ to conform to the original plan, get it ALL signed off. So you don’t have any pressure to complete it.

Then you can re design and make the changes you want. It’s doing things twice but gets the city off your back for the time being.



you do have a case to sue the previous owner ( unless he died ) that pulled the permit and didn’t add the wing walls. A simple small claims suit would get you $10,000….

I doubt they disclosed anything in the selling of the property.

you can also take the previous owner into mediation but have a time line to conform to & need a lawyer

good luck