Honda Odyssey Crankshaft Bolt Torque Help - Torque + Angle conversion to Torque

[YoshiMoshi3]

Hi, I'm trying to figure out what torque wrench I need for my Honda Odyssey. The procedure says to tighten to 48 ft lb then an additional 60 degrees. So I need a 1/2 " drive torque wrench I presume. But how do I convert 48 ft lbs + 60 degrees, to a final torque value?

48 ft lb + 60 degrees = X ft lb?
What is X?

I see some digital torque wrenches that go up to 100 ft lb, some go to 250 ft lb, some go to 300 ft lb.
Seems like I need to figure out what X is, and then pick out a torque wrench.

Understood that I will follow the procedure and do 48 ft lb, and then additional 60 degrees, but how do I know if the torque wrench can handle doing that? The ranges specified for torque wrenches is in ft lbs, and not ft lbs plus some angle.

Thanks for any help!

 

[ChevyEFI]

Switch from the TW to another tool.

 

[Phang]

switch to a breaker bar when doing angular torquing

 

[signcrafter]

You don't go by "final torque". You do as it says, torque to 48 and then turn another 60 degrees. The easy way is to use a digital torque angle wrench. I have gear wrench brand ones but snap on torque angle are what a lot of techs have. There is also a little angle gauge thing you can use.

 

[KnurledNut]

Easy.
360° divided by 60° is 6.
The bolt head is six point.
Torque to 48lbf.
Then mark one point and turn the bolt until the next point lines up.

Edit to add:
That should be a wet torque spec. Oil the threads and between the bolt head and washer.

 

[KomatsuTech]

48 ft lb + 60 degrees = X ft lb?
What is X?

There isn't a way to figure out what X is. You just torque the bolt to 48 ft lb and then switch to a breaker bar and turn the bolt an additional 60°.

 

[dnschmidt]

Can't be done with a normal torque wrench and often can' be easily done with a torque angle wrench. But the solution is EASY if you have a paint pen. Knurled Nut spelled it out for you. Simply torque to the low value. The sole purpose of this step is to remove any slop from the system. Mark a point on the nut and then mark a point of the pulley where the next point of the nut happens to be. Use a long breaker bar to move the bolt from its initial position to the mark on the pulley - JOB DONE.

You will be amazed at how much torque it takes to get to the final torque angle. You'll definitely be approaching 200 ft-lb or more which is why torque angle wrenches that only go to 100 ft-lb (135 N-m) are basically useless. I have a many torque angle wrenches and nearly broke by balls doing torque to yield on a Ford PowerStroke. Thought that job was going to turn me from a baritone to a soprano.

 

[1Bad55Chevy]

Easy.
360° divided by 60° is 6.
The bolt head is six point.
Torque to 48lbf.
Then mark one point and turn the bolt until the next point lines up.

Edit to add:
That should be a wet torque spec. Oil the threads and between the bolt head and washer.

That's how I torque bolts. Use a paint pen so you don't lose referencing.

 

[AEAdam]

Hi, I'm trying to figure out what torque wrench I need for my Honda Odyssey. The procedure says to tighten to 48 ft lb then an additional 60 degrees. So I need a 1/2 " drive torque wrench I presume. But how do I convert 48 ft lbs + 60 degrees, to a final torque value?

48 ft lb + 60 degrees = X ft lb?
What is X?

I see some digital torque wrenches that go up to 100 ft lb, some go to 250 ft lb, some go to 300 ft lb.
Seems like I need to figure out what X is, and then pick out a torque wrench.

Understood that I will follow the procedure and do 48 ft lb, and then additional 60 degrees, but how do I know if the torque wrench can handle doing that? The ranges specified for torque wrenches is in ft lbs, and not ft lbs plus some angle.

Thanks for any help!

You can’t calculate the torque associated with an angle without the mechanical properties of the bolt and it’s thread pitch.

You can probably do 50ftlbs +60 with the 3/8” techangle. The wrench will not let you over load it. When you get near it’s limits it will start beeping and buzzing.

Remember, electronic torque wrenches don’t have the limitation of the first 20% of the range being less accurate. Their whole range is accurate. So you could also meet this torque reqt with the 1/2” tech angle.

 

[Chipm]

Also if you have never done this job before, my advice is to go ahead and get a big weighted impact socket for crank bolt removal like Lisle 77080 and a strong impact wrench.

 

[AEAdam]

Can't be done with a normal torque wrench and often can' be easily done with a torque angle wrench. But the solution is EASY if you have a paint pen. Knurled Nut spelled it out for you. Simply torque to the low value. The sole purpose of this step is to remove any slop from the system. Mark a point on the nut and then mark a point of the pulley where the next point of the nut happens to be. Use a long breaker bar to move the bolt from its initial position to the mark on the pulley - JOB DONE.

You will be amazed at how much torque it takes to get to the final torque angle. You'll definitely be approaching 200 ft-lb or more which is why torque angle wrenches that only go to 100 ft-lb (135 N-m) are basically useless. I have a many torque angle wrenches and nearly broke by balls doing torque to yield on a Ford PowerStroke. Thought that job was going to turn me from a baritone to a soprano.

You typed a better explanation of this in 2009. The limit "overload" torque of a 3/8" wrench (range 5-100ftlbs) isn't 100ftlbs. You can torque to 60ftlbs and then turn 270 degrees (depending on the fastener). I think you said the overload torque was like 150ftlbs for the 5-100.

This is pretty complicated, not easy to throw numbers around relating angles to torque (which is kinda the point of angles).

 

[dnschmidt]

You typed a better explanation of this in 2009. The limit "overload" torque of a 3/8" wrench (range 5-100ftlbs) isn't 100ftlbs. You can torque to 60ftlbs and then turn 270 degrees (depending on the fastener). I think you said the overload torque was like 150ftlbs for the 5-100.

This is pretty complicated, not easy to throw numbers around relating angles to torque (which is kinda the point of angles).

Not exactly, what I said was that for an Eclatorq torque wrench, which I sell, if you go over 110% of max torque the wrench will go into error mode and requires a software reset to remove this error message and according to Eclatorq the wrench would then need to be recalibrated.

The point of angles is amazingly simple. You know the pitch of the threads, you know how much stretch you want on the bolt for it to do its job and you know what rotation is needed to cause that much stretch. Bolt stretch is really all that really matters as that's whats holding your **** together. Torque is a very indirect method of trying to determine bolt stretch with about 100 variables altering the torque readings such as lube, bolt coating and various unknow frictions caused by any number of things from dirt to metal shavings. For many applications it's all we've got but for critical applications torque is far inferior to bolt stretch.

 

[AEAdam]

Not exactly, what I said was that for an Eclatorq torque wrench, which I sell, if you go over 110% of max torque the wrench will go into error mode and requires a software reset to remove this error message and according to Eclatorq the wrench would then need to be recalibrated.

The point of angles is amazingly simple. You know the pitch of the threads, you know how much stretch you want on the bolt for it to do its job and you know what rotation is needed to cause that much stretch. Bolt stretch is really all that really matters as that's whats holding your **** together. Torque is a very indirect method of trying to determine bolt stretch with about 100 variables altering the torque readings such as lube, bolt coating and various unknow frictions caused by any number of things from dirt to metal shavings. For many applications it's all we've got but for critical applications torque is far inferior to bolt stretch.

Well written. IIRC from that older thread, the Snap On 3/8 TechAngle (5-100ftlb range) maxes out at 150ftlbs, and gives you a lot of warning and shuts itself off. I don’t think they go into error mode.

I’ve done some suspension bolts with high angle reqts that I physically wasn’t strong enough to achieve with the 1/2” techangle (not bragging but I’m pretty strong). So I think the discussion of overload torque is a little theoretical when it comes to the 1/2” wrenches.

Again, if I’m not mistaken my old gray handled gen1 tech angle is 25-250ftlbs. Looks like Snap on has a new model that goes to 300ftlbs (normal range not overload). I think that’s a lot for a 26” tool.

 

[AEAdam]

The OP question is a good one. My advice: outside of engine building I see angles in suspension and steering components (safety critical bigger bolts). So I guess if you are looking to spend for a TechAngle, 1/2” is the one to get.

For 3/8”, the digital wrenches are really nice and do stuff you can’t easily do with other tools (like rundown (prevailing) torque). But I see fewer needs for torque + angle on the lower end of the torque spectrum.

Maybe folks could find other brands, less expensive models or older red handled Snap On 3/8” TechWrenches. Remember, you can send these to Snap On for recalibration and repair for around $100. If you can get a used one for $150 like I did, the repair cost is still worth it.

 

[Snapped-off]

Similar to my Audi axle bolts. 200ft-lbs + 180°.

Torqued to 200 with the torque wrench, and I actually used my long Snap-on ½" ratchet for the 180°. Easy day.

 

[gregs]

I think thats one long blurp from the air impact follwed by 2 short blurps 4 seconds apart.

 

[NHtoolguy]

Similar to my Audi axle bolts. 200ft-lbs + 180°.

Torqued to 200 with the torque wrench, and I actually used my long Snap-on ½" ratchet for the 180°. Easy day.

My 2005 VW Passat is 140 ft-lbs plus 180°. I use my 36" SK 3/4" drive breaker bar and Sunex 17mm hex bit socket for the final step. It's actually easy with the available leverage. The breaker bar isn't a tool I use often, but for that job it's perfect.

 

[bwringer]

I know it's a radical thought, but perhaps, just maybe, "follow the clearly written instructions" might be the right move here...

And yeah, don't try to do the final torque with a torque wrench. Switch to your longest breaker bar. Eat your Wheaties and do some stretches first.

 

[Snapped-off]

My 2005 VW Passat is 140 ft-lbs plus 180°. I use my 36" SK 3/4" drive breaker bar and Sunex 17mm hex bit socket for the final step. It's actually easy with the available leverage. The breaker bar isn't a tool I use often, but for that job it's perfect.

Mine were 19mm hex. Had to run out last second and grab a socket. I  thought I had 19mm bit socket I bought a long time ago, but it was in fact a 17mm.

 

[L.Cheapo]

Well written. IIRC from that older thread, the Snap On 3/8 TechAngle (5-100ftlb range) maxes out at 150ftlbs, and gives you a lot of warning and shuts itself off. I don’t think they go into error mode.

I’ve done some suspension bolts with high angle reqts that I physically wasn’t strong enough to achieve with the 1/2” techangle (not bragging but I’m pretty strong). So I think the discussion of overload torque is a little theoretical when it comes to the 1/2” wrenches.

Again, if I’m not mistaken my old gray handled gen1 tech angle is 25-250ftlbs. Looks like Snap on has a new model that goes to 300ftlbs (normal range not overload). I think that’s a lot for a 26” tool.

The 300s have been out several years. They're 30". The 250s are ~26".

 

[zimman]

Similar to my Audi axle bolts. 200ft-lbs + 180°.

Torqued to 200 with the torque wrench, and I actually used my long Snap-on ½" ratchet for the 180°. Easy day.

End thread.
Zim

 

[Hakeem]

I think thats one long blurp from the air impact follwed by 2 short blurps 4 seconds apart.

Honestly, that’s what about I did. I didn’t have enough space to do the required angle on jackstands so I just used the impact to hammer the crank bolt for ~5 seconds or so.

 

[dnschmidt]

Honestly, that’s what about I did. I didn’t have enough space to do the required angle on jackstands so I just used the impact to hammer the crank bolt for ~5 seconds or so.

Probably doesn't matter much as the reverse rotation of the Honda motor will self tighten the bolt over time anyway. That's why these buggers are so hard to remove in the first place. Every time the motor is run the bolt is being tightened naturally. The five second impact method is probably used on 95% of these bolts in the real world of automotive repair. I'd be interested in hearing what Secondgearrubber has to say about this as he likely does several of these a month.

 

[KnurledNut]

Astro does 350#

 

[vjquan]

Probably doesn't matter much as the reverse rotation of the Honda motor will self tighten the bolt over time anyway. That's why these buggers are so hard to remove in the first place. Every time the motor is run the bolt is being tightened naturally.

Not true. The vast majority of Honda engines are clockwise rotation. The only ones that are counter clockwise were the 4 cylinder motors with the front of the engine on the driver's side.

 

[AEAdam]

Astro does 350#

These wrenches are nothing more than strain gages. They have no mechanism. So you could make a 700ftlb version because there are ratchets that can take it.

So the real question becomes how much torque do you need and how long of a tool can you stand?

If you guys go to Snap Ons website and read the “application” for any given tool, you might learn Snap on designs tools for pretty specific reasons, unlike the Asian manufacturers and distributors who buy snap on ratchets for example, add 8 teeth and market them as better. That’s not innovation and it’s not necessarily better.

Sorry @KnurledNut not trying to **** on your post. Folks doing heavy equipment etc might love knowing there’s a torque wrench out there for them.

I just wanted caution the others here of what we all went thru with impact gun torque “space race”. The “winning” guns are just too big and clumsy and produce a torque few of us actually need. Full circle, a lot of us are buying the “mid torque” guns which are just smaller and more advanced versions of the first battery guns.

 

[Cruzan80]

Astro does 350#

By this, do you mean Astro Pneumatic? If so, I can't seem to find it listed on their site, or for sale anywhere. If a different company, can you link to it? Thanks.

 

[KnurledNut]

By this, do you mean Astro Pneumatic? If so, I can't seem to find it listed on their site, or for sale anywhere. If a different company, can you link to it? Thanks.

Yeah Astro Pneumatic. That picture is from their current catalog, page 11.
https://www.astrotools.com/catalog-page/

 

[Cruzan80]

Thanks. Didn't come up when I searched Torque on their site. Wonder if it is a new offering? Will check on the AP thread so not to derail further.

 

[Wamsutta]

There isn't a way to figure out what X is. You just torque the bolt to 48 ft lb and then switch to a breaker bar and turn the bolt an additional 60°.

Snap-on TechAngle will tell you what X is AFTER you've tightened the bolt to the final torque setting with the angle. It'll be different every time which means you can't write down the final torque reading and use a regular torque wrench the next time. But it'll tell you the final torque reading to satisfy your curiosity.

 

[dnschmidt]

Astro does 350#

A 350 ft-lb digital torque wrench without angle is completely useless. What's the purpose of the digital version if all it does is show the torque setting digitally? Craftsman had this **** 30 years ago and it was a bad idea then. Chris has had many great ideas but this doesn't seem to be one of them. The ad doesn't even mention if the units can be changed from ft-lb's to N-m which is what 80% of the specifications for modern machines use. The 91350 seems OK to me but the digital version I feel is a non-starter.

 

[Cruzan80]

My guess is that this helps for all of those torque specs that are just over the "normal" limit of 250. For example the front wheel bearing on my F150 (RWD) needs 265ft/lb, and I know some diesel stuff creeps up into the 300-350 range. The 3/4 torque wrench I have goes to 600, which is far beyond what I need, and then I have adapt things to fit. Sockets are now produced in larger sizes (for a given drive) than they used to as well.

So not just torque+angle, but bigger stuff that simply needs more than 250. Not sure I will spring for the digital (depends on price), but I do see this filling a gap that most conventional companies don't do.

Edited to add/clarify details on the vehicle I used as an example

 

[Cruzan80]

Also, serious question. How many times do you need 200+ft/lb plus angle, and are in a spot where you can't see what you are working on (the usual reason given for why angle is needed)? I know people used to put a dab of paint/sharpie and then check it, but that fell out of favor with the tight confines and needing to see directly what you were working on. I guess if it takes a "pre-load" of 200ft/lb and then another 90+deg, how likely is it that you can achieve than in a buried fastener? If it isn't buried, see above. Again, not saying it will be the "empirically best" solution, but if it can meet a given need at a lower price point, then it has a market.

 

[AEAdam]

Also, serious question. How many times do you need 200+ft/lb plus angle, and are in a spot where you can't see what you are working on (the usual reason given for why angle is needed)? I know people used to put a dab of paint/sharpie and then check it, but that fell out of favor with the tight confines and needing to see directly what you were working on. I guess if it takes a "pre-load" of 200ft/lb and then another 90+deg, how likely is it that you can achieve than in a buried fastener? If it isn't buried, see above. Again, not saying it will be the "empirically best" solution, but if it can meet a given need at a lower price point, then it has a market.

I’ve seen a few high torques plus angles. More often it’s just a ”bring the joint together”, then the real torque is the angle.

The techAngle type wrenches are just Uber convenient. There’s always another way to meet the reqt, but the digital wrench is just easy. And yes you don‘t need swing room, no need to mark and watch.

 

[Cruzan80]

Agreed that the Techangles are nice for what they do. But they don't appear to go up to 350 (only 300), and are $790 list. I was more questioning how often it comes up for the higher upper end, with the note that the usual response of why people NEED angle is swing room, and if that is true in those examples.

My point simply is there may be a market for a 350ft/lb wrench, either click or digital, depending on price. Hence why I said:

Again, not saying it will be the "empirically best" solution, but if it can meet a given need at a lower price point, then it has a market.

Mostly in response to this

A 350 ft-lb digital torque wrench without angle is completely useless.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

So I see what everyone is saying, just torque it to the specified angle, and the eyeball the angle.

I'm however very bad at "eyeball" method, so I was hoping a digital torque wrench that does angle would work for me. If I get one that can do up to 100 ft lb, and can do angle as well, would this be to small to use for my application?

 

[L.Cheapo]

Agreed that the Techangles are nice for what they do. But they don't appear to go up to 350 (only 300), and are $790 list. I was more questioning how often it comes up for the higher upper end, with the note that the usual response of why people NEED angle is swing room, and if that is true in those examples.

There is a 3/4" Techangle, 30-600ftlbs.

For a mere $1800, it can be yours!

 

[KomatsuTech]

Snap-on TechAngle will tell you what X is AFTER you've tightened the bolt to the final torque setting with the angle. It'll be different every time which means you can't write down the final torque reading and use a regular torque wrench the next time. But it'll tell you the final torque reading to satisfy your curiosity.

Thank you, I was a not aware that they did that.

 

[dnschmidt]

Thank you, I was a not aware that they did that.

Almost all electronic digital torque/angle wrenches have this feature. They alternate between the torque value and the angle value. I know Eclatorq's do and I believe Gearwrench's do this as well. What's frightening is how much more torque that extra 60 degrees adds this is why I recommend the higher capacity torque/angle wrenches.

 

[dnschmidt]

So I see what everyone is saying, just torque it to the specified angle, and the eyeball the angle.

I'm however very bad at "eyeball" method, so I was hoping a digital torque wrench that does angle would work for me. If I get one that can do up to 100 ft lb, and can do angle as well, would this be to small to use for my application?

Almost certainly.