Hot Tub Subpanel - Breaker Issue?

[D45]

Trouble shooting this for a friend:

Hot tub does doesn't have any power......

I slammed thr breaker switch back and forth and there's still no power.

I took the panel cover off and there is power coming into the box, via the green wires

Midwest panel with a 50AMP breakers

I cannot press and 'pop' the TEST button. Would this be the reason there's no power coming out of the breakers?

Are these panel specific breakers or ?

 

[u2slow]

Test button should work.

I would do some more checking with a multi-meter. Maybe a fuse is blown at the hot tub, inside the controller.

Breaker looks to me like an Eaton BR series.

 

[D45]

THQL2150GFTP

Does this look like the replacement breaker?

50 Amp 240-Volts Double Pole Ground Fault Breaker with Self-Test

 

[D45]

Definitely can't reset or press the test button at all, with my finger nor a screwdriver

 

[PCustoms]

I took the panel cover off and there is power coming into the box, via the green wires

What?!

Either there is something totally wrong or you're measuring incorrectly.

Hopefully you're measuring wrong and there is another breaker in the house feeding this sub that is off.

 

[PCustoms]

Looking at those pics again I can't tell WTF I'm looking at, but is suspect that is wired very wrong. Find where it's fed from and start there.

 

[u2slow]

THQL2150GFTP

Does this look like the replacement breaker?

50 Amp 240-Volts Double Pole Ground Fault Breaker with Self-Test

I found this one.

https://www.eaton.com/ca/en-gb/skuPage.GFTCB250.html

The rest is up to you to figure out.

 

[sparky 1971]

Everyone is going to get their ******* in a wad about green conductors being used for hots. While that isn't right, it isn't the problem. You say you have power on the greens, did you measure between the two greens and get 240ish volts or did you measure from green to ground and get 120ish? It makes a difference. If you have 240 at the lugs and nothing off the breaker, it's one of two things, either the breaker is a done for or the bus bar is shot, but I can't see both stabs going bad at the same time so it's probably the breaker.

 

[D45]

Well I should say power is coming into the box......I was just using one of those touch wire probes

Something is 'hot' coming into the panel, and i suspect its the green wires......but no power is going out after the breaker

Everything was working and functioning completely fine until last month

Nothing has been rewired or worked on

 

[sparky 1971]

Well I should say power is coming into the box......I was just using one of those touch wire probes

Something is 'hot' coming into the panel, but no power is going out after the breaker

Everything was working and functioning completely fine until last month

Nothing has been rewired or worked on

Use a meter. An idiot stick doesn't tell you anything other than the potential for a shock is there. Also, while you're at it, check the breaker in the house, there should be one in the main panel feeding the hot tub panel.

 

[D45]

Yes there's a specific spot in the main panel, feeding the hot tub panel

It's on and not tripped

 

[Norcal]

Use a meter. An idiot stick doesn't tell you anything other than the potential for a shock is there. Also, while you're at it, check the breaker in the house, there should be one in the main panel feeding the hot tub panel.

In most cases they are just a toy, they have some uses but troubleshooting is not one of them, a meter or Wiggy will be more useful.

 

[micromind]

Since we're dealing with a possible high resistance problem, a Wiggy would be better than meter..........but you have to know how to use it in a situation like this.

As noted, you'll need to find out if you have 120 from either green to the neutral bus (where the white wire terminates) and 240 from one green to the other.

If that's all good, you'll need to remove the breaker. First, turn the breaker in the main panel off and verify that there's no power in the hot tub panel. Then, mark the wires on the load side of the breaker so you can get then back to where they were. Then, remove these wires and remove the breaker.

If the bus extensions (where the breaker connects) look good, there's a very good chance that the breaker is bad. If the bus extensions are bad (it'll be obvious), you'll need to replace the entire panel.

 

[Wrench97]

Looking at those pics again I can't tell WTF I'm looking at, but is suspect that is wired very wrong. Find where it's fed from and start there.

Ya it appears the feed is wired in green and the outgoing neutral is black..........

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow what a mess

First off why does it look like some kind of oil or fluid was sprayed on everything?

Second off, need to get a multimeter and test between the 2 greens. If you have power there then you need to test the lugs on the breaker

Since the test button doesnt work on the breaker it either doesnt have power or its bad.

Once you get all that figured out, should replace the wiring. If you dont want to do that, at least phase tape it with the correct colors. The greens need to be black, the orange needs to be green, and the black going to the neutral bar needs to be white. the neutral going to the tub needs to be white as well.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ya it appears the feed is wired in green and the outgoing neutral is black..........

The feed to the neutral bar is black as well. If its #4 then it just needs to be taped.

 

[Jim greengo]

Well I should say power is coming into the box......I was just using one of those touch wire probes

Something is 'hot' coming into the panel, and i suspect its the green wires......but no power is going out after the breaker

Everything was working and functioning completely fine until last month

Nothing has been rewired or worked on

I don't trust those testers,get a eal meter to test it.
Check the panel that's feeding the sub,to make sure there's not a tripped breaker.

 

[kbuhagiar]

The first thing that comes to mind for me when looking at that picture, is with anyone who so blatently disregards the color code, who knows what other rules were disregarded?

I'd be suspicious of every other bit of work performed by this installer...

 

[PCustoms]

@wyliesdiesels

My is having a hard time following this and I can't wrap my head around what I'm seeing. What are the 3 black wires leaving the breakers?

 

[Wrench97]

@wyliesdiesels

My is having a hard time following this and I can't wrap my head around what I'm seeing. What are the 3 black wires leaving the breakers?

2 hots and a neutral(ground fault breaker)

 

[PCustoms]

2 hots and a neutral(ground fault breaker)

Duh

Thanks. Could not see it for some reason, was looking at the pigtail and forgot about the feed to the tub.

 

[D45]

There was a large wasp nest in the panel, probably looks like that because I hosed it down with spray

 

[D45]

It also passed a home inspection when they moved in a few years ago

I asked if the hot tub panel was checked and my friend is confident because he has the inspection report saved in his email.

The panel cover was taken off and 'inspected'

 

[PCustoms]

Home inspections are generally a crock and carry no real weight beyond buyer/seller negotiations.

 

[mm08822]

It also passed a home inspection when they moved in a few years ago

I asked if the hot tub panel was checked and my friend is confident because he has the inspection report saved in his email.

The panel cover was taken off and 'inspected'

Read any Home Inspector Org's blog about electrical details and you'll realize most of them are clueless. I posted a link some time within this year but not finding it at this moment. It was comical when you realize these are the same folks providing passing results.

Anyone not flagging "green" power conductors is useless. I doubt the hot tub was inspected by the local building dept either.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

There was a large wasp nest in the panel, probably looks like that because I hosed it down with spray

Did you do this with the power on?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It also passed a home inspection when they moved in a few years ago

I asked if the hot tub panel was checked and my friend is confident because he has the inspection report saved in his email.

The panel cover was taken off and 'inspected'

No way that panel was checked. Or if it was the person checking had no clue.

 

[PCustoms]

No way that panel was checked. Or if it was the person checking had no clue.

Probably just a verification that the spa panel has a GFCI

 

[Jim greengo]

It also passed a home inspection when they moved in a few years ago

I asked if the hot tub panel was checked and my friend is confident because he has the inspection report saved in his email.

The panel cover was taken off and 'inspected'

There's a big difference between a home inspector.
And an actual electrical inspector.

 

[D45]

Yes, I turned the supplying main breaker off in the basement before removing the panel cover......

 

[gba2331]

My bet is that the breaker is bad, but regardless I would definitely mark the wires with electrical tape and maybe look inside the main panel as well. It looks like someone had only two spools of wire and didn’t want to do it "properly", which doesn’t inspire confidence.

 

[doyle]

I have had 2 different hot tubs over the years and worked on all of them. The first thing to check would be your GFI breaker at tub panel. Turn off power inside the house to you tub panel then check to make sure its not hot. After that unhook and tape wires from breaker that go to tub. Turn power back on and reset breaker, then check for power at wire connection location. If power is present push white button on breaker, it should trip. If it doesn't trip or you can't push white button the breaker is faulty and needs replacing. Your breaker should be 50 amps. The heater or pump being shorted is normally what trips the breaker and will have to be tested with a multimeter. Good Luck.

 

[egdede]

Is there a fused 240v disconnect switch with a separate fuse on each leg? If so, one blown fuse can make for funny tells.

 

[D45]

Local hot tub installer came out to inspect the box and wiring inside and also check the pump and motor

Didn't mention anything about the box wiring but said it was "likely" a bad breaker

Quote was double the price of a new breaker, so we are going to replace the breaker ourselves

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Local hot tub installer came out to inspect the box and wiring inside and also check the pump and motor

Didn't mention anything about the box wiring but said it was "likely" a bad breaker

Quote was double the price of a new breaker, so we are going to replace the breaker ourselves

so did anyone use a multimeter to test the output on the breaker lugs? or the green feeder wires?

 

[D45]

The guy brought out a meter and was there for an hour checking and testing everything

I wasn't there to observe what he did or didn't do

 

[manwithtools]

FYI, many times you can buy a Spa subpanel cheaper than you can buy just the GFCI breaker inside it. Depending on brand you might save some money buying the complete subpanel and "stealing" the breaker from it. Also, please do something to correct those wire colors, even if it's just phase taping.

 

[micromind]

The guy brought out a meter and was there for an hour checking and testing everything

I wasn't there to observe what he did or didn't do

I wonder what he did in that hour........

I, and about a dozen others here on GJ, could have found the problem in less than 10 minutes.

Of course, I don't know all the details, but an hour seems like a lot of time for something this simple.

 

[D45]

Talking with the owner about the problem, inspecting the main panel, inspecting the sub panel, removing inspection panel on hot tub, checking and testing everything......putting everything back together and speaking with the owner about the diagnosis.

One hour seems very reasonable to me, but I'm not an electrician

 

[sparky 1971]

Local hot tub installer came out to inspect the box and wiring inside and also check the pump and motor

Didn't mention anything about the box wiring but said it was "likely" a bad breaker

Quote was double the price of a new breaker, so we are going to replace the breaker ourselves

That's cheap if the labor, trip charge,and warranty are included.

Talking with the owner about the problem, inspecting the main panel, inspecting the sub panel, removing inspection panel on hot tub, checking and testing everything......putting everything back together and speaking with the owner about the diagnosis.

One hour seems very reasonable to me, but I'm not an electrician

An hour is reasonable if he actually diagnosed the proble. While it is likely a bad breaker, there is a chance it isn't and throwing parts at it could run the bill up in a hurry.