How can I fix this?

[galute]

I am rewiring my shop. I have everything wired up in the new panel. My service comes from the transformer into a meter box on a pole about 75' from my shop. From there it goes into a panel with 3 breakers. A 100 amp breaker that runs to my shop, a 30 amp that is for a travel trailer hookup on the same pole and an extra 30 amp just for outside power, also on the same pole.

Here's the problem. There are only 3 conductors run from the 100 amp breaker into my shop panel. Two hot conductors and 1 ground run underground thru conduit. Now I know that this makes my shop panel a sub panel which requires removing the bond strap between the neutral and ground inside the panel and running a ground wire and 2 ground rods. I understand that. But, shouldn't there be 4 wires between the two panels? Is there a way I can fix this without pulling new wires?

I plan on having an electrician come and check everything when done. I would rather have everything right when he gets here instead of paying to fix some stupid mistakes. Thanks for any help.

 

[justsam]

Sounds like you have all your need if all your devices are 240V.

You will need to run a neutral (white wire) to use 120V devices.

Just to be sure of understanding, the meter base AND the panel with the 3 breakers is all mounted on the pole? Is there any other form of disconnect mounted there? Is there a ground stake at the pole?

With the existing conduit, may not be too tough to add the neutral wire if you want 120V.

 

[Mustang51js]

Technically and legally you need the extra wire,but you Could get away with changing the ground wire to a neutral,if it's not a bare wire, then using a ground rod for your grounds. How big is the pipe and what size wires you have in there already

 

[sberry]

No,,, he probably already has 120/240,,, if there are 3 wires,,, is it insulated or really a ground wire? At any rate with 3 conductors the sub needs to have the bond screw installed.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . you've forgotten this is GJ . . . . pictures are key to getting best advice. Thousand words and 4 pages of posts can be trimmed out with PICS of what you've got going on.

Let's SEE what you're talking about !!

 

[galute]

To answer some questions. Yes the 3rd wire is bare. I will have to pull the cover to see what its hooked to. My bet is ground. Yes there is a ground rod at the pole. Yes there are 120 volt circuits inside the shop. I believe the wires are 2ga aluminum. Looks like my only option is to run new wires.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am rewiring my shop. I have everything wired up in the new panel. My service comes from the transformer into a meter box on a pole about 75' from my shop. From there it goes into a panel with 3 breakers. A 100 amp breaker that runs to my shop, a 30 amp that is for a travel trailer hookup on the same pole and an extra 30 amp just for outside power, also on the same pole.

Here's the problem. There are only 3 conductors run from the 100 amp breaker into my shop panel. Two hot conductors and 1 ground run underground thru conduit. Now I know that this makes my shop panel a sub panel which requires removing the bond strap between the neutral and ground inside the panel and running a ground wire and 2 ground rods. I understand that. But, shouldn't there be 4 wires between the two panels? Is there a way I can fix this without pulling new wires?

I plan on having an electrician come and check everything when done. I would rather have everything right when he gets here instead of paying to fix some stupid mistakes. Thanks for any help.

Nobody has mentioned this. Prior to NEC 2008, 3-wire feeds were to code. So if it was wired prior to 2008, then its gathered in and fine. However, if theres parrallel metal pathways between 2 structures then 4-wire was and is required. Is the conduit metal or plastic? If metal then the conduit could be used as the ground and the current wire IF insulated can be unbonded from the ground bar in the sub. The neutral bar needs to be insulated/isolated from the enclosure. U will probably have to add a ground bar.

The grounding electrodes and corresponding ground wire going to them serves a different purpose than the EGC in the circuit!

No,,, he probably already has 120/240,,, if there are 3 wires,,, is it insulated or really a ground wire? At any rate with 3 conductors the sub needs to have the bond screw installed.

Correct!!

To answer some questions. Yes the 3rd wire is bare. I will have to pull the cover to see what its hooked to. My bet is ground. Yes there is a ground rod at the pole. Yes there are 120 volt circuits inside the shop. I believe the wires are 2ga aluminum. Looks like my only option is to run new wires.

To be a code complaint 3-wire feed the 3rd wire wouldve needed to be insulated. Now the thing is, ground and neutral terminate on the same bar in the MAIN SERVICE PANEL ONLY. Since thats what u have, u have 120v/240v in your garage. Yes its not UPTO current code(ignoring the code violation about the bare wire) but doesnt have to be, its grandfathered in!

 

[justsam]

You state you currently have 120 V in the shop. Is there also 240V?

Trying to determine if you indeed have two hot wires, and a ground, or if you have a hot, a neutral, and a ground. Can you measure the voltage between the two insulated conductors, and also between each of them to your ground wire?

Is the 100 Amp breaker at the pole feeding the shop, a two pole breaker, or a single pole?

If you have both 120 and 240, someone is using the ECG as a neutral, not a good practice.

If the existing wires are individual conductors, you can just add one more wire of equal gauge for the neutral.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You state you currently have 120 V in the shop. Is there also 240V?

Trying to determine if you indeed have two hot wires, and a ground, or if you have a hot, a neutral, and a ground. Can you measure the voltage between the two insulated conductors, and also between each of them to your ground wire?

Is the 100 Amp breaker at the pole feeding the shop, a two pole breaker, or a single pole?

If you have both 120 and 240, someone is using the ECG as a neutral, not a good practice.

If the existing wires are individual conductors, you can just add one more wire of equal gauge for the neutral.

Aw no, Read my previous comment! 3-wire feeds used to be code compliant!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Nobody has mentioned this. Prior to NEC 2008, 3-wire feeds were to code. So if it was wired prior to 2008, then its gathered in and fine. However, if theres parrallel metal pathways between 2 structures then 4-wire was and is required. Is the conduit metal or plastic? If metal then the conduit could be used as the ground and the current wire IF insulated can be unbonded from the ground bar in the sub. The neutral bar needs to be insulated/isolated from the enclosure. U will probably have to add a ground bar.

The grounding electrodes and corresponding ground wire going to them serves a different purpose than the EGC in the circuit!

 

[galute]

You state you currently have 120 V in the shop. Is there also 240V?

Trying to determine if you indeed have two hot wires, and a ground, or if you have a hot, a neutral, and a ground. Can you measure the voltage between the two insulated conductors, and also between each of them to your ground wire?

Is the 100 Amp breaker at the pole feeding the shop, a two pole breaker, or a single pole?

If you have both 120 and 240, someone is using the ECG as a neutral, not a good practice.

If the existing wires are individual conductors, you can just add one more wire of equal gauge for the neutral.

I am quite sure there are both 240 and 120 circuits inside the shop and there are two hot conductors and 1 ground coming in. I will look into running another wire instead of replacing them all. Thanks.

 

[galute]

Read my previous comment! 3-wire feeds used to be code compliant!

Thanks for that info. I'm looking into when the building was built. I know it was built around that time and am trying to dig up the exact date.

 

[brewchief]

I'd be a little worried if the ground or neutral wire is bare aluminum, I didn't think that bare aluminum was allowed to be used underground even in conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'd be a little worried if the ground or neutral wire is bare aluminum, I didn't think that bare aluminum was allowed to be used underground even in conduit.

I was just gonna bring that up.

OP can u post pics of the inside of both panels please...

 

[galute]

My bad. Now that I think about it it is not bare aluminum. It is aluminum but what it is is two black hot conductors with an aluminum shield spiraled around the two with a thick heavy sheath around that. I was thinking about what it looked like hooked to the panel and not what it looked like coming in.

This is the only pic I have. Hard to see in the pic but the sheath is cut off right where it comes out of the conduit and into the box and the third wire is twisted and ran to the neutral in the box. The neutral and ground are bonded at the top of the panel.

 

[Petey156]

Appears to be SEU cable. If it were mine I would remove the bonding screw, separate the neutrals and grounds, then add a ground rod,

 

[galute]

Appears to be SEU cable. If it were mine I would remove the bonding screw, separate the neutrals and grounds, then add a ground rod,

Thanks. It's hard to tell in the picture but the neutral wires and grounds wires are not touching anywhere but the bonding strap at the top of the box. I looked at them close to make sure.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My bad. Now that I think about it it is not bare aluminum. It is aluminum but what it is is two black hot conductors with an aluminum shield spiraled around the two with a thick heavy sheath around that. I was thinking about what it looked like hooked to the panel and not what it looked like coming in.

This is the only pic I have. Hard to see in the pic but the sheath is cut off right where it comes out of the conduit and into the box and the third wire is twisted and ran to the neutral in the box. The neutral and ground are bonded at the top of the panel.

Ugg its SEU!

That is NOT a shield. Its a bare neutral! And NOT good for underground use regardless of bring in conduit. That bare neutral WILL turn into toothpaste. Youre gonna have to replace it with something such as #2 MHF!

What size is the conduit? Hopefully at least 1 3/4...

Appears to be SEU cable. If it were mine I would remove the bonding screw, separate the neutrals and grounds, then add a ground rod,

Wrong! He has a 3 wire feed. Bonding screw needs to be used with a 3-wire feed! But this is a moot point as SEU CANNOT be used underground!

And he DOES have ground rods. But Im not sure why u suggested putting one in as grounding electrodes DO NOT take the place of an EGC! Those are 2 different animals. People always get confused about grounding rods and confuse them for equipment grounding conductors!

Thanks. It's hard to tell in the picture but the neutral wires and grounds wires are not touching anywhere but the bonding strap at the top of the box. I looked at them close to make sure.

Neutrals and grounds SHOULD BE on the same bar in this scrnario because u have a 3-wire feeder. And they are. The bars on the left and right are connected.

When u change to a 4-wire feed, u will need to remove the bonding strip that bonds the panel to the neutral bar, add a ground bar and move the bare branch circuit grounds to the ground bar. The GEC/grounding electrode conductor(bare wire coming from ground rods) needs to be moved to the new bar as well. The neutral bar MUST be isolated from any grounds including the panel enclosure!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Have u ever heard the term 'a pic is worth a thousand words?'

2 notes on this pic:

It is for a subpanel in the same building so for a sub in a detached building ground rods ARE required and a disconnect IS required when theres more than 6 breaker handles!

Hopefully all this info clears things up for u!

Happy reading!

 

[galute]

Ok, I looked up SEU and that is what it is. Here is a pic I found on the net and it looks exactly like this. It is run in a 2'' pvc conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok, I looked up SEU and that is what it is. Here is a pic I found on the net and it looks exactly like this. It is run in a 2'' pvc conduit.

REPLACE IT! Wrong wire wrong application! If an 'electrician' ran that he needs to be SLAPPED!

Get this:

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-...ce-Entry-Electrical-Cable-28712801/202316409/

It will pull good in 2" conduit!

 

[galute]

REPLACE IT! Wrong wire wrong application! If an 'electrician' ran that he needs to be SLAPPED!

Get this:

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-...ce-Entry-Electrical-Cable-28712801/202316409/

It will pull good in 2" conduit!

Ok, thanks very much for the help, schematic and link to what I need. So I am back to my original thinking. I need to pull new 4 conductor wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok, thanks very much for the help, schematic and link to what I need. So I am back to my original thinking. I need to pull new 4 conductor wire.

Yup! Just the reason to post pics in the begginning of a thread...

 

[Mustang51js]

Just double check and make sure the wire isn't spliced anywhere before it comes into the panel. You may be lucky where they ran separate conductors and spliced it with Seu after it entered the building

 

[justsam]

Aw no, Read my previous comment! 3-wire feeds used to be code compliant!

I am certainly willing to be corrected, but I believe when 3 wire was compliant, that the neutral was required to be an insulated conductor.

The OP originally stated that he had two insulated conductors, and a bare ground wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, that is correct and I brought that up. However, It seemed the OP didnt quite know what he had. But the OPs original premise for replacing the wire was that it was 3-wire and he thought that was wrong. Multiple things going on here. Jist the reason why we need pics!

 

[galute]

Just double check and make sure the wire isn't spliced anywhere before it comes into the panel. You may be lucky where they ran separate conductors and spliced it with Seu after it entered the building

Not that lucky. I am quite sure it's the same on both ends. One solid run connecting both panels.

 

[galute]

Just to explain what is going on here. When the building was built in late 08 (I finally figured that out) there was an existing pole already in place. It had the travel trailer hook up on it with a extra outlet for outside power. There also was a space for the 100 amp breaker not being used. The builder pulled the SEU thru the conduit into the building and threw up a temporary panel to be used for power during construction. He only built the shell. I planned on finishing the inside myself. Since then I have been working out of state and had no time to work on the building so it has only been used for storage except for a couple months last year when I had time to do a little work to it. Now I am laid off again and trying to finish it up which means finally getting to the electrical work which means removing the temporary stuff and replacing with permanent done correctly. I was hoping not to have to pull new wires but it doesn't look like I'm going to get that lucky.

I greatly appreciate everyone's help. I am currently in the search for an electrician to come replace the wires and inspect everything. This will take a few days I'm sure.

Thanks again.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do the work yourself and save tons of money. U could hire an electrician to verify the connections once youre done!

 

[galute]

Ok, I got a chance yesterday afternoon to run by and snap a pic of the meter panel. It does not appear to me that the neutral and ground are bonded in this panel. Shouldn't they be? What do I do now? Thanks guys.

BTW, I know the breaker supplying the shop (far left breaker) in the meter panel is a 50 amp. I have the 100 amp to replace it with and will do so at the same time the cables are replaced.

Here is a pic of the entire meter panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes they SHOULD BE! Looks like someone may have ommitted a bonding strap. Youre either gonna have to find out what strap is used for that panel or make one(which wont be UL listed)...And im wondering why someone wrapped the GEC with black tape on the right hand side...

 

[galute]

I was wondering the same thing about the tape on the GEC. That was done at the time the panel was assembled by an electrician. I bought the panel years ago already assembled with the travel trailer hook ups and took it and set the pole. The POCO came and hooked it up. All that has been changed since is the addition of the wires and breaker to the shop that was for temp use by the builder.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

O ok. Did this panel in its past life serve as a subpanel? Or did the meter come with it?

 

[galute]

No, it was all brand new when I set the pole. The Poco put the meter in when they hooked it up. The meter base and panel are all one piece. They cannot be separated.

 

[galute]

If it would help here is the tag on the panel.

 

[Mustang51js]

Just add a small #6 jumper between the two bars

 

[galute]

So. Does this still qualify as the main panel and shop panel as sub or is this just a meter disconnect?

 

[Mustang51js]

I would count it as a main

 

[galute]

I would count it as a main

I guess I knew that. Just wanted to make sure. Thanks.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Depends on if it has a statement "suitable for service equipment" which is will have to have, being a combo meter/main panel.

Yes, take a short piece of solid #6 and carefully form it and use it to jumper between the neutral and ground bars.

Contractor was going the cheapest route that he could on wire. Thankfully you have the 2 inch conduit, should not be too difficult to pull the SER out and pull some 2-2-2-4 MHF in its place. Breaker it for 90 amps and you are good to go. The conduit will need to go all the way to the panel in the shop.

Charles