how Hard is it to solder copper tubes

[mygarageone]

Copper can be slightly out-of-round from mis-handling, abrasive from emery cloth, or a ridge from a dull tube cutter can all cause fittings to be tight. None of those have anything to do with where you bought it. So, I guess, I don't "understand" that it is always the fault of the box store.

We get 99% of our plumbing supplies from "professional" supply houses and they are by no means perfect.

So do you think box store stuff is equal to our professonal supply house items ?

If so you need to get educated .

 

[raspy]

So do you think box store stuff is equal to our professonal supply house items ?

If so you need to get educated .

So educate me and all of us with your profound knowledge!

I'm not taking a stand either way, just as I'm not about to blame every problem on box stores when clearly there are other reasons for copper fittings being hard to work with. Perhaps you can "educate" us, and I mean specifically, about some differences you are familiar with. I'm afraid it's too much of a generalization to say that every big box store is worse than any professional supplier, or have you documented all products from all professional suppliers and made a credible comparison to big box stores, that you want to share? Let's see the evidence. Suggesting someone should get "educated" just because you have an opinion, is a bit much. So educate us with some believeable facts. I want wall thicknesses, alloys and dimensional tolerances on copper pipe and fittings to start, since we are supposedly talking about soldering copper here. I want proof that every fitting from a big box store is worse than any fittings from any other supplier.

Once I have that verifiable fact filled report, I'll thank you sincerely for the education.

 

[Jon_E]

So, when you have to connect foreign-made, 60-year-old black iron tube pipe to domestically-produced copper pipe tube, can you just glue it together with regular PVC cement flux or do you have to use the special purple stuff first? And is it better to buy the purple stuff at the big box store or do you just go down to the local smoke shop for the "professional grade"?

 

[raspy]

Jon,

Yes, exactly the question to ponder.

Now, we're getting closer to the zen of piping. Groping for meaning on the other side of the static. The first goal is to let the water flow. Then the real meaning comes of using that water for a purpose. Arguing about the name of the conduit only distracts from the goal. Distractions, or static, only serve the ego of the troll.

 

[metlmunchr]

Where do you get this black iron? Iron pipe has not been produced in the US for 60 years, so I assume you have a special source?

Not produced for 60 years? I just love the adamant sarcastic declarations.

Yep, Know-nothing loudmouths like yourself are easily amused.

I wonder where the plumbers are getting all that black iron pipe that is going into the new houses we're working on? Hmmmmm.

They're not getting iron pipe. Its steel pipe but I'm sure there are plenty of other clowns who don't know the difference between iron and steel either.

Here's a place to get some, but it must all be over 60 years old.

https://www.jmesales.com/black-iron...X6exPCOw7SrJO4cxthg8HO5_oAwVzl-MaAiGUEALw_wcB

I suggest you read your own link, or maybe get someone to read it to you. Those are malleable iron FITTINGS, not pipe. Maybe someone can explain to you the difference between pipe and fittings too.

While you're looking, get them to read the description of that ****** on the first page. Its that thing that looks like a real short piece of pipe. See if you can find anything in the description that calls it iron rather than steel. And no, iron and steel are not interchangeable terms just the same as pipe and tubing are not interchangeable terms.

The last iron pipe produced in the US was made by A M Byers. They began to shut down production in 1958 and closed in 1960 after about 100 years in business. Wrought iron pipe was in use long before steel pipe was available, but steel largely took over the market because it was much cheaper to produce. Wrought iron continued to be used primarily for steam condensate lines because it was more rust resistant when exposed to condensate. The market for pipe used only for condensate lines wasn't sufficient to support the operations, and became worse over time as more and more hot water heating systems were installed rather than steam systems. Byers wrought iron was easy to identify because it all had a red stripe running along the entire length of every joint of pipe.

So, regardless of what raspy claims from his cloud of ignorance, you cannot buy "black iron pipe" today, nor have you been able to buy it for the better part of 60 years.

 

[metlmunchr]

So do you think box store stuff is equal to our professonal supply house items ?

If so you need to get educated .

Typical box store junk story......

A friend runs an independent builder's supply nearby. A guy comes in one day and wants to buy several Kwikset interior passage locksets. Jeff sells them for $13 ea but since the man wants several he says he'll sell them for $11.50 ea.

Man says No, he can get them at HD for $8.50 ea, and leaves.

Next time Jeff is near HD he stops and looks at the locksets. Sure enough, they're $8.50 and the packaging is identical. He's paying $8.25 buying in lots of 100. So he buys one to take apart and see if there's any internal difference.

Takes one of his and the apparently identical HD one apart, and where his is all metal internally, the HD one is mostly plastic parts inside. No surprise its cheaper.

Next time the Kwikset rep comes in his store he tells him he wants to order some of the locksets HD sells so he'll have them for the folks who buy only on cheapest price. Sorry, no can do. Those are made for and sold only to HD.

So he does the next best thing. He fixes a display of the two disassembled locksets side by side on a board and puts it up along with a sign that says "This is why ours costs more than theirs".

Anyone who doesn't think the box stores have similar appearing but lower quality products in many instances is just dreaming.

IMO, both Lowes and HD have been very successful in creating an illusion of lower prices via heavy advertising.

I rebuilt and enlarged a deck on my house a few years ago. Got prices from both of the box stores based on the same materials list. All #2 wet treated pine as that's the only grade they handled at that time. Both were right around $1600 plus $50 to deliver.

So I check with my friend's place for a price. I don't abuse our friendship by asking for special pricing. First thing one of his counter guys says is that they don't deal in #2 treated. Too many complaints of poor quality and warping as it dries. Only #1 dried after treatment. Okay, price it like that. $1300 delivered. Hell, I would've readily paid a $300 premium for the #1 dry material. Even asked the counter guy if he was sure of the price. Yep, standard contractor pricing. Wrote him a check on the spot.

Talking to my friend later and mentioned the good price on the deck materials. He said he'll beat Lowes or HD on a complete framing package at least 8 times out of 10, yet with the quality of the big box framing lumber and the quantities they buy, either of them should beat his brains out on every quote. They sell due to the low price illusion to people who get quotes only from the box stores and assume there's no need to look elsewhere since they're the cheapest places around.

 

[raspy]

Uh, oh. Touched a nerve. Troll alert! Now the insults start flying.
Grab a beer and look for the next installment when we learn another new name for iron and copper. And we get reminded of how stupid we are.

Weren't we taking about soldering copper?

 

[tab2]

I’ll try to get this back on track. I just soldered for the first time on my own. Cleaned the pipe (or is it tube now?) and the fitting, some flux, heat the fitting and when it got to the right temperature it sucked the solder right in. I cut one of them apart just to check it and it did pull the solder all way in.

These were my first two and not my prettiest, which is why I cut one of them up.

 

[ez-duzit]

2--attaboy!

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I’ll try to get this back on track. I just soldered for the first time on my own. Cleaned the pipe (or is it tube now?) and the fitting, some flux, heat the fitting and when it got to the right temperature it sucked the solder right in. I cut one of them apart just to check it and it did pull the solder all way in.

These were my first two and not my prettiest, which is why I cut one of them up.

Not bad at all. The drop ell looks like it might have been just a teeny little bit too hot- the black spots are an indicator of oxidation.

Tommy

 

[firebirdparts]

What kind of flux do you use when soldering PVC?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

What kind of flux do you use when soldering PVC?

The purple stuff. It's code...

Tommy

 

[jhelrey]

Get good flux, not the cheap ****. Huge difference.

 

[mcbane]

Just a comment on MAPP gas: I have never seen a professional plumber use it. They use large propane torches that can deliver way more BTUs of heat per second. Something like a Victor Turbo Torch and a BBQ can of propane. That lets you get enough heat into the joint fast enough that the flux hasnt boiled out by the time the pipe is hot enough to apply solder. With a tiny MAPP flame, the flame temperature may be a few degrees hotter than a propane flame but the heat input is too low and it takes way too long to heat the joint.

 

[Brian_WK]

Just a comment on MAPP gas: I have never seen a professional plumber use it. They use large propane torches that can deliver way more BTUs of heat per second. Something like a Victor Turbo Torch and a BBQ can of propane. That lets you get enough heat into the joint fast enough that the flux hasnt boiled out by the time the pipe is hot enough to apply solder. With a tiny MAPP flame, the flame temperature may be a few degrees hotter than a propane flame but the heat input is too low and it takes way too long to heat the joint.

Even with the new crappy MAPPro
I use MAPPro for brazing copper up to 3/8" Oxy/act after that on HVAC.
I can easily solder 1" plumbing pipe to fitting, not valves etc, with MAPPro.

Anything bigger is Oxy/Act

Turbo Torches are for people who don't value their hearing or are already deaf. They are usually acetyl/air.

Brian

 

[Brian_WK]

Not bad at all. The drop ell looks like it might have been just a teeny little bit too hot- the black spots are an indicator of oxidation.

Tommy

Get good flux, not the cheap ****. Huge difference.

I get black spots when using old paste flux even at correct temps. That's why I only buy the small altoids size tins for my home kit. Once it gets old it turns to **** and I have more flux patch issues and non stick issues.

Brian