took the time to thoroughly read everyone's post. Some funny, most so informative, i feel i owe all of you a beer! Spent the better part of the morning going thru the home paperwork, amazing, the PO left us alot of paperwork regarding new gas burner,roof, all types of stuff yet nothing on garage with was built in 2008 except the permit placard you hang on structure while building. Was hoping i had the plans or any paperwork for garage. shocked i have nothing. It wasnt a normal house closing with covid, owners were very skiddish about having people in the house, it was best to have lawyers hash it out, honestly i was worried about deal falling thru and learning about how wells work(i always had town water line) and how to afford it, i never thought to ask about garage related stuff. Was happy it had 220 and PO was leaving the lift. Tomorrow im going to town hall to see if plans and a builder are on file and inquire about struct engineer. I will put a list together of order of importance and go from there. Garage aspect is clearly very important to me, old lady doesnt understand, but do they ever?
how high can i move rafters?
- Thread starter montes57
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Take that down to the building inspectors office. They may have plans on file, or at least the name of the builder..
Denwood
Well-known member
This is a perfect case scenario for a ridge beam. See my thread, page 1. Removed the collar ties completely and restructured in place with a ridge beam. About $600 of LVL beams and installed myself. Spec was from a local truss manufacturer:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263351
I removed collar ties spanning 16ft of the 24ft shop. You'll need a ridgebeam, and two more LVL's to carry load to side walls. Side walls will need jack studs added to increase load bearing. I honestly did the basic structural work in about 6 hours.
Before:
After:
We have high snow loads here (about 60lbs sq/ft, 23000 lbs for this roof), so the spec for your application may be less or more depending on span, location etc. My shop is smaller and lower than yours, however the feeling of space with an 11ft vault is pretty transformative
I had the ceiling completely sealed with closed cell spray foam, therefore no soffit venting required.
You can then redo your door rails to follow the ceiling, or replace with a roll up door, which was my approach. Another benefit of doing this is that you end up with lofts at both ends of your shop for storage...which may or may not require sistering up the leftover collar ties.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263351
I removed collar ties spanning 16ft of the 24ft shop. You'll need a ridgebeam, and two more LVL's to carry load to side walls. Side walls will need jack studs added to increase load bearing. I honestly did the basic structural work in about 6 hours.
Before:
After:
We have high snow loads here (about 60lbs sq/ft, 23000 lbs for this roof), so the spec for your application may be less or more depending on span, location etc. My shop is smaller and lower than yours, however the feeling of space with an 11ft vault is pretty transformative
I had the ceiling completely sealed with closed cell spray foam, therefore no soffit venting required.You can then redo your door rails to follow the ceiling, or replace with a roll up door, which was my approach. Another benefit of doing this is that you end up with lofts at both ends of your shop for storage...which may or may not require sistering up the leftover collar ties.
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This is Exactly the look i was going for! thanks. town was ZERO help. Showed permit was closed and listed "owner" as builder. They had no plans on record. I asked for a lead on a local engineer, and was told it was a conflict of interest to refer someone. Everyone is shaky nowadays!
The Tool Tyrant
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Being a retired framer of 32 years, I suggest you ask a local framing contractor for a lead on a structural engineer as they will know the good from the "I don't want a lawsuit, so I'll overdue everything...WTH, it costs me nothing" types.
That's a shame ..... your not asking for an Endorsement ...
My fist picture in my other thread is a ridge --
Sorry the city was no help. Those ARE indeed stick built rafters, not trusses. As mentioned, the face-nailing isn't ideal. It puts all your nails in single-shear loading. I hope you don't have much snow load. With they way they're built, those rafters just aren't a good candidate for modifying. They're built to the bare-minimum. The bottom chord is essentially a two-force member under tension. If you try to relocate that and go with a collar tie or scissor truss arrangement, you'll be adding bending stresses to the rafters that shouldn't be there.
There's one exception: Denwood's ridge beam. That's no half-measure, and is a solid solution. You'll still want to get the modifications spec'd by an engineer if you're not well versed in this topic. That could be a good way to go in your situation though. It would definitely give you the most head room, short of raising the whole roof assembly as far as you like.
bas157
Well-known member
can't fit the truck in.....easy fix.....get a short bed instead of a long bed!
jmarkwolf
Well-known member
Or lift the entire bldg and put a block wall under it, as PVFJR says.
3onthetree
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2018
- Messages
- 191
There are tons of threads on doing this, and every thread has 3/4 the comments not understanding trusses vs rafters or what collar ties are. Your garage has rafters and was DIY'ed without an understanding as well.
You can raise the rafter ties (which also double as ceiling joists) but it affects your existing rafter span. The higher you go (up to 1/3 of the total ridge height) the more it reduces the carrying capacity of the existing rafter span. But, it could easily happen if the rafter span is more than adequate. The biggest difficulty is usually sourcing long enough lumber and allowing attic storage which is inevitable. You can eliminate the rafter ties/ceiling joists completely by installing a full-width ridge beam or doing partial scissor trusses, but sometimes they're the more complicated route to install or if you have large lateral loads or an inadequate foundation.
The collar ties (think "collar" as in your shirt, up high keeping your head attached to your neck) are only to prevent the rafters from pulling apart at the ridge. A collar tie is a "dainty" member - it only needs be a 1x4 every 48"o.c. or just a metal ******** top of the sheathing. It should not be "beefed up" and used as support for any other structural members.
Do not ever use a lift post to support the garage structure.
You can raise the rafter ties (which also double as ceiling joists) but it affects your existing rafter span. The higher you go (up to 1/3 of the total ridge height) the more it reduces the carrying capacity of the existing rafter span. But, it could easily happen if the rafter span is more than adequate. The biggest difficulty is usually sourcing long enough lumber and allowing attic storage which is inevitable. You can eliminate the rafter ties/ceiling joists completely by installing a full-width ridge beam or doing partial scissor trusses, but sometimes they're the more complicated route to install or if you have large lateral loads or an inadequate foundation.
The collar ties (think "collar" as in your shirt, up high keeping your head attached to your neck) are only to prevent the rafters from pulling apart at the ridge. A collar tie is a "dainty" member - it only needs be a 1x4 every 48"o.c. or just a metal ******** top of the sheathing. It should not be "beefed up" and used as support for any other structural members.
Do not ever use a lift post to support the garage structure.
gsmith22
Well-known member
have you considered just ripping off the roof and reframing with real scissor trusses to raise up the bottom? chainsaw off roof and remove with crane, crane places new trusses, sheathing on next and then roofed. I bet in 1 to 1.5 weeks the whole job could be done.
my advice for looking for an engineer would be to reach out to local engineering society chapters - for structural engineers in NJ, there are asce sei chapters in the north, central, and south jersey areas. plus you get the same type of chapters in NY (for north jersey) or in PA near philly (for south jersey).
you definitely have a site built rafter/ceiling joist type system. But its real sketchy. That vertical member is doing nothing because in order for it to carry any load, it would have to bend your rafter ties/ceiling joists. the rafter ties look like a 2x6 or 2x8 and could never work for that span. So load is being resisted by the rafters spanning ridge to perimeter wall and the ceiling joists stop the walls from spreading (notice the very stout looking ceiling joist tension splice at the vertical member) because you don't have a ridge beam. you have a ridge pole which is basically a place to nail your rafters to. don't touch the rafter ties/ceiling josits at the bottom. your walls will spread in an instant and then you will need both a new roof and new walls.
my advice for looking for an engineer would be to reach out to local engineering society chapters - for structural engineers in NJ, there are asce sei chapters in the north, central, and south jersey areas. plus you get the same type of chapters in NY (for north jersey) or in PA near philly (for south jersey).
you definitely have a site built rafter/ceiling joist type system. But its real sketchy. That vertical member is doing nothing because in order for it to carry any load, it would have to bend your rafter ties/ceiling joists. the rafter ties look like a 2x6 or 2x8 and could never work for that span. So load is being resisted by the rafters spanning ridge to perimeter wall and the ceiling joists stop the walls from spreading (notice the very stout looking ceiling joist tension splice at the vertical member) because you don't have a ridge beam. you have a ridge pole which is basically a place to nail your rafters to. don't touch the rafter ties/ceiling josits at the bottom. your walls will spread in an instant and then you will need both a new roof and new walls.
Denwood
Well-known member
No worries. The truss guys will tell you to replace the entire roof..ha. Seriously, about $700 in LVL materials, and you're good. They will need to spec the ridge itself, and two more to carry the load to your walls. You'll have to beef up support at the walls with jack studs. Your walls are open, so this will be super easy.
LVL beams can be purchased in generic lengths, and come in 1 1/2" thickness so can be built in place. One of the truss shops in town (engineer on staff) spec'd the LVL sizes, and also supplied fasteners and the fastener pattern. They will also spec the end treatment (cut angle) of the cross support beams so they slide over your top plate. It took about four hours to do the beam work in my shop and was surprisingly simple to install.
YukonXL04
Well-known member
This! I saw the building and my first thought was ridge beam. The building isn't that big so a ridge beam shouldn't be that bad. If it were 30+ft then it gets expensive.
But I would do a ridge beam there in a heart beat
ddawg16
Well-known member
Have you considered lowering the floor? Seeing how ideas are being thrown out there....
I like the ridge beam...but, I don't see how you are going to get one in there.
But I must ask...how tall is the truck and your hot rod? If the truck is 6'....and the lift takes up about a foot of vert space....a regular sedan should fit under it
I like the ridge beam...but, I don't see how you are going to get one in there.
But I must ask...how tall is the truck and your hot rod? If the truck is 6'....and the lift takes up about a foot of vert space....a regular sedan should fit under it
Denwood
Well-known member
You completely remove truss ties and ridge beam sits under existing ridge board as my pics above. The cross beams just run across parallel to the existing cross ties that you leave in place (or not) at both ends. It's actually easier to run a full length ridge as opposed to what I did, leaving end loft storage. You should leave a few truss ties in place during construction to keep the walls from bowing out, and it also makes getting the LVL pieces up easier. We just used cargo straps as the LVL components are not that heavy, and can be assembled in place. You'd likely need 3 or 4 at whatever height they spec. (likely 10 or 12") Each piece is 1 1/2" thick.
firebirdparts
Well-known member
This will sound strange to people that don't work on framing, but if I wanted to add a ridge beam to that particular house, I'd just make a hole in the end of the house and shove it in off a scaffold/telehandler/the tractor. A house like that is pretty trivial to puncture.
Wanted to thank everyone here for their input. I hired a local structural engineer from a recommendation i got and used "denwoods" garage pic as a template of the look i was going for. $750 later, i have legit set of drawings showing the ceiling joists all removed and a beefy ridge beam installed. Unfortunately with the price of lumber what it is, my project is kinda dead in the water for now. in the meantime ive been cruising this site looking for ideas on:
flooring
insulation
wall covering (sheetrock or whatever)
heating - was thinking maybe wood burning stove
lighting- now that it will be vaulted
flooring
insulation
wall covering (sheetrock or whatever)
heating - was thinking maybe wood burning stove
lighting- now that it will be vaulted
nadogail
Well-known member
The limitations to your dreams are Lack of Imagination, Lack of Time, and Lack of Money.
If you can eliminate these considerations, there are no known limits. 100 years ago space flight was for comic books, we threw lots of money and years of engineering at the dream and now have foot prints and a Flag on the Moon and a presence on Mars.
If you can eliminate these considerations, there are no known limits. 100 years ago space flight was for comic books, we threw lots of money and years of engineering at the dream and now have foot prints and a Flag on the Moon and a presence on Mars.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I would recommend rock wool in the walls. The ceiling will be an issue. You don't have much depth to the rafters.
I have made false rafters to add depth in situations like this I rip 1/2" ply scraps to 4 inches wide. Then cut to 12" long. I then take a straight 2x4 the proper length and mitered. I screw the 4x12 strip of ply onto each side of the 2x4 with some 1.5" structural screws and some titebond 2 on 24" centers. I then have a helper hold up these false rafters onto the existing rafter and screw/glue the ply to the actual rafter. Now you can place 8" of insulation and leave a 4" gap. Each rafter bay needs to be vented at the eave and the ridge or moisture damage will result and the 4" gap must not be blocked at any point.
Is this garage attached to the house?? If so most juridiction require a fire rated wall (adjoining wall) and ceiling assembly with type x and or type C drywall.
If not I would use White steel ceiling for reflective/ease of install/ light weight and type x drywall on the walls, but that is a personal preference.
As far as the wood stove, Some jurisdictions its illegal in an attached garage, and most insurance companies will not cover you if you put a wood stove in a garage/shop. Some will with much higher rates.
Personally for lighting I would use 4' two bulb metal t8 fixtures with led ballast delete conversions attached directly to the ceiling.
I have made false rafters to add depth in situations like this I rip 1/2" ply scraps to 4 inches wide. Then cut to 12" long. I then take a straight 2x4 the proper length and mitered. I screw the 4x12 strip of ply onto each side of the 2x4 with some 1.5" structural screws and some titebond 2 on 24" centers. I then have a helper hold up these false rafters onto the existing rafter and screw/glue the ply to the actual rafter. Now you can place 8" of insulation and leave a 4" gap. Each rafter bay needs to be vented at the eave and the ridge or moisture damage will result and the 4" gap must not be blocked at any point.
Is this garage attached to the house?? If so most juridiction require a fire rated wall (adjoining wall) and ceiling assembly with type x and or type C drywall.
If not I would use White steel ceiling for reflective/ease of install/ light weight and type x drywall on the walls, but that is a personal preference.
As far as the wood stove, Some jurisdictions its illegal in an attached garage, and most insurance companies will not cover you if you put a wood stove in a garage/shop. Some will with much higher rates.
Personally for lighting I would use 4' two bulb metal t8 fixtures with led ballast delete conversions attached directly to the ceiling.
dave_dj1
Well-known member
Collar ties moved up no more than 1/3 of the way and you will be good.
A decent lumber yard should have someone on staff who can give you all the info you need to do this.
A decent lumber yard should have someone on staff who can give you all the info you need to do this.
Viper98912
Well-known member
Or, do what I did.
Move the lift to the left, and back into the corner (so it's at a slight angle). Make sure it's placed correctly enough so the left posts line up with the garage door, and you have enough depth to lift your longest car. The key is to maximize how much left you can go so you maximize the amount of space on the right hand side.
On the left, on the lift (or even under the lift), make that the parking spot for the hotrod. Right side is the parking spot for the truck and your work area (so all your cabinets and workspaces need to be along the wall on the right hand side of the garage, and put anything on wheels that you need more space for to move out into the middle of the garage).
Lift and rod on left, truck and workspace on right.
Cost - free.
Move the lift to the left, and back into the corner (so it's at a slight angle). Make sure it's placed correctly enough so the left posts line up with the garage door, and you have enough depth to lift your longest car. The key is to maximize how much left you can go so you maximize the amount of space on the right hand side.
On the left, on the lift (or even under the lift), make that the parking spot for the hotrod. Right side is the parking spot for the truck and your work area (so all your cabinets and workspaces need to be along the wall on the right hand side of the garage, and put anything on wheels that you need more space for to move out into the middle of the garage).
Lift and rod on left, truck and workspace on right.
Cost - free.
This is incorrect.
Collar ties are for the top of the triangle and are use to stop upwards wind lifts. They can't go any lower than 1/3 from the peak
What you're referring to is rafter ties.
By moving the ceiling joists 1/3 of the way up, they now become rafter ties.
dave_dj1
Well-known member
And they will still hold the building from spreading which is their purpose.
I was using the terminology of "collar ties" as not to confuse him.
I have been a builder for 40 years, been there, done that in fact my own garage on the house I bought 20 years ago had 8' ceiling height, I moved the rafter ties up to 10' and it is still standing. As I said, a good lumber yard will have someone on staff that can do the math.
Always the best move .... someone sees the current situation -- understands what you want and gets you to the end zone with a proper plan. One that you know will work .... Putting a qualified set of eyes on the situation is the only way to get a practical solution.
We used some engineered material a couple months ago and it was up but not as much as basic stuff. Have you priced it out ?
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oldcarpenter
Well-known member
Ridge beam is the preferred , although expensive fix. A collar tie will do just fine. Here is a picture of my shop carport framing, originally built this way. The same framing continues through the enclosed portion. Plenty strong.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Attachments
My apologies Dave, I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what you were talking about.
My issue, if you happen to come across one of my previous posts, was that I had both a general contractor and an architect tell me they could remove the ceiling joists on my family room and turn them into actual collar ties. I asked about if they meant rafter ties and they said no, collar ties. I didn't use their services.
cosmopedro
Well-known member
Montes57,
I’m a mechanical engineer w/a bit of background in ‘seat of the pants’ structural engineering… Do NOT enlist a truss builder to ‘engineer’ your solution. Do as others on this thread have suggested: find a reputable structural engineer, define several iterations of end-game goal (since what you really want might be too costly for domestic peace) and have them design/STAMP drawings. Then take that design to a truss maker and contractor for pricing. It’ll cost you, but will be worth every penny.
If you really want it elevated, do it before you move anything in or you’ll be wishing you had for as long as you live there!
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
I’m a mechanical engineer w/a bit of background in ‘seat of the pants’ structural engineering… Do NOT enlist a truss builder to ‘engineer’ your solution. Do as others on this thread have suggested: find a reputable structural engineer, define several iterations of end-game goal (since what you really want might be too costly for domestic peace) and have them design/STAMP drawings. Then take that design to a truss maker and contractor for pricing. It’ll cost you, but will be worth every penny.
If you really want it elevated, do it before you move anything in or you’ll be wishing you had for as long as you live there!
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
firebirdparts
Well-known member
Mods might need to lock this thread until you have it built, ha ha. Or delete all the discussion about what to do. Holy cow.
Why lock thread? if one person could benefit from this or at the very least stop this question from being recycled, its not a waste. Bottom line is you get what you pay for. I paid for a licensed engineer, and got legit plans instead of guessing. Current lumber prices are crazy, im not paying sucker prices. Im in a position i can hold out. Right now nothing is in garage so it would be ideal time to get done. Next month i have vacation time coming my way. Now that i know sizes to the LVL, as well as its supports, i can take measurements and hit local supply houses for pricing, even though, then go from there
Farmall450
Well-known member
I agree. Those are not trusses.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
You do realized your in Florida and the OP is in NJ right? Roof loads where he lives is entirely different than where you live.Ridge beam is the preferred , although expensive fix. A collar tie will do just fine. Here is a picture of my shop carport framing, originally built this way. The same framing continues through the enclosed portion. Plenty strong.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
