How important is COO to you and why?

[cgrutt]

I disagree completely. Boots are a great example. Bought several pair of whatever COO brand/boot that was in the $50-100 range for the first several years of working as a mechanic. Broke down one day and bought redwings made in the US that were almost $300. I still have those boots and they've been re-soled and repaired but they still look great and haven't failed me. I've since bought two more pair one in steel toe and one in brown. The boots that were made in India, China, Taiwan lasted 6 months to a year tops. Literally falling apart.
Tools are getting better but I don't buy them on quality alone. I'm for America not Taiwan/China. Lurking in this thread it irritates me that people don't care about workers in our country it's just the price and so called quality they care about. I suspect the "quality" is just their opinion and plenty of inferior tools make their list. It's a shame guys like me are in the minority and most people don't know, don't care it's just the Walmart mentality.

I go out of my way to buy Red Wing boots made in USA. Unfortunately even Red Wing now makes many of their boots in China. I know because I received a pair last year for xMas. Didn't even try them on and turned them in plus some more dollars for a pair made in USA. Can't say I hadn't thought twice about finding another brand that doesn't compromise. Not sure that's even an option anymore. BTW wearing a pair of USA made Red Wings as I type.

 

[brownbagg]

i hate redwing boots, had the sole come off within three months, dealer told me, "not his problem"

 

[JiminAZ]

As I've gotten older the phrase "vote with your feet and your dollars" has become much more important to me. I left California 7 years ago. Voted with my feet. Someone else can pay the taxes to support the programs that I didn't believe in and got outvoted on.

The tool thing is similar. I'm just a serious DIY guy who doesn't need pro quality tools but I appreciate their capabilities, I can afford them, and want to support US workers and companies. Additionally, I have worked with blue collar people for years and my family has blue collar roots so I have considerable empathy there. So I vote with my dollars.

I understand that some can't afford to vote with their dollars. Frankly, I can afford it so I do it. I can understand that for other people the choice may not even exist, so I don't judge others on their choices.

Not to make it political, but it the real world it is political, isn't it? I really don't want to send my money to communists that steal our IP and are out to dominate us. I'll send my money to a thorn in their side (Taiwan), and I'll send my money to free Europe or Japan where they make a special tool that I can't get US made. Meantime US Williams, Wright, SK, etc whenever possible. Plus there are a lot of US made tools (some Tekton, Wilde, Channel Lock, etc) that are very competitive price wise.

We all make our choices. I guess I've become more aware of the impacts of my choices as I've gotten older and have watched things play out.

 

[Toolhorder]

The boots are not a good example. A better example would have been the same model made in America vs elsewhere. Comparing $50 boots to $300+ redwings is a big stretch. They are not meant to compete with each other.

Reaffirming my point - do you ONLY buy local produce?? I coulda accuse you of not caring about American jobs... are you out feeding the homeless on the weekends?? there's no end to this.. you can't judge people off a single issue on a garage journal forum.

Your point makes no sense. If the price were comparable to US made products we wouldn't have any issue. The US made product would win. People only buy Chinese product because of the price point.

 

[Sportsman762]

I am a younger guy, however I prefer USA tools when it makes sense. I also consider other developed countries such as Germany, Switzerland, Canada, Mexico and Japan, as my second choice. Third is the developing countries such as China, Taiwan, and India. I know that I will get flack for including MX, however they are a neighbor so it is better if I grow their economy over China.

The developing countries can have good tools. China has made it to space, and that definitely required good tooling. India is growing as a parts provider in the aerospace industry, junk does not get you that.

I try to support USA as much as I can. My friends that are coal miners mine a coke that other friends who are in the steel industry use to make the steel. My friends who are linemen keep the power running to the factories. My friends who are truckers transport the tools. If I can keep my money in the USA then it helps us all.

With all that being said, I cannot afford all American tools, nor does every job require one. Buying used tools keeps the prior owner in the money, hopefully they will spend it on something here in the USA. My tool box is a mix of COO. However there is far to much CN in it and not enough US. If only I had more money......

 

[Toolhorder]

Who do any of you know who will take a job on a cellophane wrapping machine over the job they have now?


Who isn't working a job like that who wants to work a job like that?
Or carrying hod or scraping a furnace, or pulling rod?

You all are about to hear crickets....

If that's what I had to do to support my family I would. Two years ago I was delivering newspapers early in the morning including in the snow/ice then going to my shop and working a full 8-9 hours then I'd get in my Subaru and head over to Papa Johns and deliver pizza until 10ish every night. I'd sleep whenever I could but I did that for over a year until my business took off and I could afford to take a check every month.

 

[Toolhorder]

i hate redwing boots, had the sole come off within three months, dealer told me, "not his problem"

They were probably not 300 dollars

 

[M6erfan]

Your point makes no sense. If the price were comparable to US made products we wouldn't have any issue. The US made product would win. People only buy Chinese product because of the price point.

I disagree. We (well at least I) are talking about the narrowing quality gap in the hand tool market. The fact is, you can buy a tool for 1/10th the price of S-o, and far less than SK, that will last you the rest of your life, and isn't made in China. Oh, and you broke it because you put a 8ft cheater bar on it? OK, you can get a replacement without leaving your house and no money out of pocket. This is the choice everyday Americans are making. Like it or not. Step outside the Gj bubble and I think you'll find that the avg American household is not going to spend Made in U.S.A tool money to work on their lawnmowers and do oil changes (If the avg American even does that much anymore).

Shoes? I have no idea. I'm happy with my Alden Indy's and 1,000 Miler's

 

[JiminAZ]

One other thought: Tools are one of the few "pure plays" where my spending can be directed 100% US.

Most other stuff I buy isn't so simple. Over the past 15 years I have owned a Chevy made in Mexico, a Ford made in Kentucky, a Dodge made in Toronto, and a Toyota made in Indiana. With global sourcing all of those cars have parts from all over the planet. Same goes for consumer electronics or even a Stihl chain saw. Very few pure plays available to vote my dollars so I like to do it with tools.

 

[cgrutt]

i hate redwing boots, had the sole come off within three months, dealer told me, "not his problem"

What was COO?

 

[M6erfan]

...What those in this thread who want to create jobs making tools KNOW they aren't jobs they want for themselves or their kids...

Like your cellophane machine example, most of those jobs will be (already are) automated anyway

 

[nieuport17]

Cost matters.
I do what I can buying US tools.
But seriously, someone needs to figure out the cost part.

My small brain can never figure out how imports can be so cheap even after shipping cost half way around the world.
Wouldnt it be cheaper if the next state is making the stuff?

 

[eyeball]

This is true and not true at the same time.. if all companies were interested in creating more jobs, then some wouldn't charge obscene prices for the "made in America" label and continue to market it as the uber expensive elite choice when their profit margins are sky high. They could easily cut costs, or introduce a less expensive alternative that offer limited over lifetime warranties. Some places are more than happy to cater to the few instead of the masses, when they can ultimately make the same profits just by the type of customer they market their brand towards.. you can't blame the average joe for not going out of his way when so many brands CAN make items locally but choose to make more money instead.. you can't blame some businesses that are also just trying to grow or keep their business as profitable as possible - cause - that's the point.. it's much more complex than just saying - "people should just spend more and buy domestic" It was simpler decades ago, cause you didn't have 1000 brands all competing for the same customers. It was more expensive to import items and that at least help level the playing field a bit - when "imported" meant "more expensive" back then. Things are much more complex now, which is why you see these issues trying to be addressed through politics instead of just at the cash register.

My point is, its wrong to focus on one issue and place ultimate blame on the consumer. It's like saying, less people would need healthcare if they would "just" shop at Whole Foods and only buy organic. Or if people would "just" buy more expensive homes that weren't next to power lines, there wouldn't be cancer clusters. Or if people would "just" buy newer or electric cars, we can combat global warming. Or - if people would "just" stop buying plastic bottles, we wouldn't have plastic islands floating in the ocean.. people, as a whole, are just trying to get Buy as well as they can, and expecting them to constantly sacrifice in an attempt to satisfy EVERY PERSON that has a cause on this earth is unrealistic and unfair. You name the cause, and the answer will always be that people should "just" spend more money, or live with unrealistic inconveniences for the times. It's impossible to satisfy everyone else and still have enough left over for yourself. At what point should people value their own well being for themselves and their family before they do something extra for everyone else?

I'm not saying that people shouldn't try to contribute where they can, but to expect everyone else to follow the same ambitions you share, is unrealistic and unfair. You can't judge people on a single issue. For the record, much of this is just a general statement to the forum, and only my opinion. I'm not trying to single out the person I quoted. His post just sparked my idea.

That’s quite a rant; organic food, cancer clusters, plastic water bottles...

 

[M6erfan]

Cost matters.
I do what I can buying US tools.
But seriously, someone needs to figure out the cost part.

My small brain can never figure out how imports can be so cheap even after shipping cost half way around the world.
Wouldnt it be cheaper if the next state is making the stuff?

Nope. It literally is way cheaper to make hand tools overseas and ship them back here. Hard to believe but that's the reality.

 

[Wamsutta]

Exactly me. I'd like to buy USA tools, and if all things where equal I certainly would. However the price is often far above the competition, and the features or performance only marginally so if at all.

HA! Either you have low expectations, or you don't easily notice design faults in the tools like I do. And when I say design faults, I don't mean cosmetics, I'm talking about actual functional faults like the socket detent locations that I'm always harping about in Taiwan made sockets.

 

[Negen]

HA! Either you have low expectations, or you don't easily notice design faults in the tools like I do. And when I say design faults, I don't mean cosmetics, I'm talking about actual functional faults like the socket detent locations that I'm always harping about in Taiwan made sockets.

My sk sockets don't even have detents. Only sockets from Taiwan that I notice detent issues on are gear wrench. Toptul others seem to be fine.

Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[M6erfan]

My sk sockets don't even have detents. Only sockets from Taiwan that I notice detent issues on are gear wrench. Toptul others seem to be fine.

Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app

I was gonna say...at least the Taiwan sockets have detents. Unlike the SK and Wright sets I returned

 

[Wamsutta]

My sk sockets don't even have detents. Only sockets from Taiwan that I notice detent issues on are gear wrench. Toptul others seem to be fine.

I have that issue with both my GearWrench and Kobalt sockets. Beautifully made sockets, but damn to they aggravate me. I simply want the socket to stop dead on the extension and not move around.

 

[Gmonkee]

Funny. Of all the stores I frequent WalMart has the most US made products.

I buy what is the quality level to fit my needs. Price I will pay increases with more frequent need to use.

Where it was made or if I chose used over new could be anywhere on the map. I bought it to make me more effective. Not save the world or keep some stocks high.

 

[Wamsutta]

Funny. Of all the stores I frequent WalMart has the most US made products.

I think Walmart is slowly trying to lose the stigma of being referred to as "Chinamart."

 

[Professional Tool User]

COO does matter to me, but it is only one of a few factors that I take into account when buying a tool. I have no problem with Made in China and Taiwan tools as long as the pricing is reasonable and the quality is at least halfway decent. What I do have a problem is high end brands cutting costs and outsourcing production to who knows where and not passing on enough of the savings. Why would I want to buy Mac tools when I get much cheaper Made in China and Taiwan tools that are probably just as good?

 

[Wamsutta]

Why would I want to buy Mac tools when I get much cheaper Made in China and Taiwan tools that are probably just as good?

Not all their tools are made in China or Taiwan; just their newer line of stuff. They still make their old line in Dallas, Texas.

 

[Professional Tool User]

Not all their tools are made in China or Taiwan; just their newer line of stuff. They still make their old line in Dallas, Texas.

All that Made in China and Taiwan stuff and the Made in USA with global materials badges on their flyers really limits how seriously I can take them as a brand. It's a matter of trust. If I'm paying top dollar, I want an excellent known quantity. My faith in the quality of the tool and where they sourced it from should be at 100%.

 

[134k]

I used to decide on tools based on this, but as things have been changing, it's more difficult to find a quality tool. I want quality over COO. I am still leary on anything made in China, or India, so I am honest in saying that I will not buy any new tool or used hand tool from those countries for my job.

 

[Jaysreal]

As would I, as did I.
You and I are not snowflakes and there is no way you would have taken, nor I(not due to the lowliness of the job but due to making sure we don't wallow in the lowliness), those jobs if there was an alternative.
So, based on what you and I know and have done and have moved on from;
The jobs like that are transient, not Making it worth building a plant and training someone, or the workers there are too(I don't what to call them) to better themselves as you and I did.
So... No betterment means terminal low wage job... *****, whine, learn nothing, want fifteen bucks an hour.
We're back to:
No one wants those jobs for what they pay except as possibly a stepping stone.
No one EVER said: my dream job is running a cellophane machine but I'd sure like to pull rod from that furnace...

(I cleaned portable toilets and was not good at it. I was smurf blue for six months.)

What those in this thread who want to create jobs making tools Know for sure without a doubt: those aren't jobs they want for themselves or their kids.
That should sum it up for me.

Mention management. But please do it with support number.

I could write an article with the logical fallacies in this response.

Are you straw man or red herring?

Argument: support American jobs!
Your response: NO ONE WANTS TO RUN A CELLOPHANE MACHINE!

I have had experience working in many manufacturing facilities and the shipping department employees in MANY instances make more than forklifts operators and other positions around the facility. Why? Because of you can't process orders unless you can ship them. So to the notion that "cellophane wrapping is low pay job" in my experience shipping makes as much as anyone else in the facility.

But if the lowliness of the job was what you were looking for why stop there? How about "no one wants to sweep floors" or "no one wants to print invoices" or or or "no one wants to work in the mail room"

If everyone had their dream job wouldn't we all be photographers, entertainers, and executives? And even to that effect you can make any field seem meaningless minimizing their importancce the way you did. Because after all who wants to... (Insert trivial description of job here) all day.

So enough acting like the only gains in a more localized tool industry would inevitably be in the shipping department.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[nmantas]

While I still try to buy US tools it is not a dealbreaker.

I used to decide on tools based on this, but as things have been changing, it's more difficult to find a quality tool.

I would say the opposite and say it is easier to find quality tools now. Harbor Freight and MIT used to be **** disposable tools but now there is more good stuff than bad at Harbor Freight (in my opinion) and Tekton (formerly MIT) is putting out much higher quality. Craftsman/Kobalt/Husky have gone downhill but virtually everything else has seen an increase in quality regardless of coo.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

I wish everything I bought was made in the USA. The reality is it's not. If I have a choice between two items that have the same features and quality I'll take the USA made one even if it cost a little more. The problem is there is seldom that option. Either something is not available or the price is a large margin.

For food, I prefer local produce/products since I believe shipping tomatoes from California 1000's of miles is retarded.

There's a really good chance that those tomatoes that shipped from CA were first shipped from Mexico. Show me on Google maps a tomato field anywhere close to Otay Mesa, CA. There is a **** ton of tomatoes shipped from there. Maybe they should come with a made in the USA with global materials sticker

 

[Outwest]

I prefer to buy U.S. made and support my country and those who provide quality products. Not everything, tool or otherwise always is of U.S. origin, but I don't mind paying for quality. That said, I don't make my living with tools, but they are necessary to me. I produce a U.S. product that I hope people are willing to pay a little extra for due to the higher standards we are held to in this country. Insurance (of all types), regulations, taxes, wages, fuel, all general costs of doing business add up to why it costs more to produce things here.

 

[Jaysreal]

I remember now.
Pulling rod form the furnace is indeed in the shipping department.

Moving the goal post?

My response was to your Cellophane comment, so you're still using logical fallacies seemingly to prove things that really have no basis or relevance to the conversation.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[cgrutt]

I was just having a conversation with a good friend about this, well not directly, but to the same end. Was telling him that I'm thinking about buying some new tools for a project I'll be working on. Two Sanders and a vacuum with supplies. Will cost close to $3K. He said just buy the harbor freight version for several hundred and toss them out at end of job if they don't hold up. Interesting perspective. I'm still leaning towards the premium tools which happen to be made in Germany but his comments are not without merit.

 

[mudflap]

I prefer to buy U.S. made and support my country and those who provide quality products. Not everything, tool or otherwise always is of U.S. origin, but I don't mind paying for quality. That said, I don't make my living with tools, but they are necessary to me. I produce a U.S. product that I hope people are willing to pay a little extra for due to the higher standards we are held to in this country. Insurance (of all types), regulations, taxes, wages, fuel, all general costs of doing business add up to why it costs more to produce things here.

Taxes, EPA, OSHA, Unions, Healthcare costs, according to a survey of large Corporations posted on Forbes. Wages were not a factor.

 

[cgrutt]

I'm sorry you saw that.
I deleted it due to
I didn't want to argue with someone who approaches as you do.
Ours is a discussion of generalities.
You're tied to the specific job.

I have no need to comment further.

Lol I saw it. Thought I was going crazy. Don't always agree with your perspective but sometimes do. Deleting posts just throws the thread off you should leave them. My 2 cents...

 

[unslow1]

Soon to be locked. Why do conversations in this forum always turn into arguments?

 

[mudflap]

Because there is a healthy mix of Libtard Globalists...and Conservative Nationalists on here....makes for spirited debate sometimes.....Let it ride...lol.

 

[The Fall]

In regards to menial/trivial jobs -- that comes with the territory. I was busy drafting most days, but when doors needed sanding or shelves needed to be spread on a job site, I was on it. We all did a lot of tasks that weren't glamorous -- including wrapping sticks of moulding in cellophane to deliver to installers. We were fighting for survival, especially after 2008. People want to work. They'll do what they need to survive.

I don't really buy what industry guys in Forbes are saying. Epic mismanagement is hardly something they'll cop too. And unions have essentially been obliterated in the private sector, much to the detriment of the working class. That excuse went out decades ago.

 

[ChrisLS8]

HA! Either you have low expectations, or you don't easily notice design faults in the tools like I do. And when I say design faults, I don't mean cosmetics, I'm talking about actual functional faults like the socket detent locations that I'm always harping about in Taiwan made sockets.

And you seen to be the only person to have this issue amazingly for the 300 times you've brought it up

 

[mudflap]

In regards to menial/trivial jobs -- that comes with the territory. I was busy drafting most days, but when doors needed sanding or shelves needed to be spread on a job site, I was on it. We all did a lot of tasks that weren't glamorous -- including wrapping sticks of moulding in cellophane to deliver to installers. We were fighting for survival, especially after 2008. People want to work. They'll do what they need to survive.

I don't really buy what industry guys in Forbes are saying. Epic mismanagement is hardly something they'll cop too. And unions have essentially been obliterated in the private sector, much to the detriment of the working class. That excuse went out decades ago.

What happened to housing/construction trades in 06/07...and why..? Look up Barney Franks.

 

[mudflap]

And you seen to be the only person to have this issue amazingly for the 300 times you've brought it up

Every time i put a GW socket on a ratchet...i think of him....lol. I dont own any GW ratchets..Does anybody know if their sockets at least fit right on their own rats...?

 

[Wamsutta]

And you seen to be the only person to have this issue amazingly for the 300 times you've brought it up

That's because I'm the only one who notices the problem. You'd have to be the epitome of a brilliant tool connoisseur to notice problems like that.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

That's because I'm the only one who notices the problem. You'd have to be the epitome of a brilliant tool connoisseur to notice problems like that.

Well; I will take My due credit for My dislike of the goofy apex double detents.

If Asian produced Gear wrench sockets use that goofy double detent; that is a great combination. Like killing two birds with one stone. because I have zero desire to ever own any of those turds. I still have some USA Craftsman goofy double detent sockets to get rid of. They were dime store stuff for a dime store price.. No thanks. For repeated, everyday use; I am accustomed to the quality and durability of My Proto and Snap-on ratchets, sockets, and other hand tools ; and have no intentions or reasons to change.

I do have some "cheapo" Gear Wrench ratcheting wrench sets; and several Gear Wrench specialty tool sets that evolved from the old KD line. Add a Tekton stubby set and a hodge-podge of other Asian tools; but these tools only see light duty or occasional use.

I am now "legally retired" but no where near "actually retired". I still put in some 40 to 60 hour weeks. If I was BDT the homeowner- master weekend fiddleoloigist; My reasons for desiring the tools I own would likely be a bit different.

From My viewpoint: "That is the way it is"... Would anyone like a further explanation? sorry.