I just bought a house and already have big plans in the works to add a 30x50 shop addition onto the existing two car garage. Right now I'm in the idea/initial planning stage. I anticipate using the shop addition as a basis for building up a home fabrication type business. Basically I just want to use the proceeds from the business to allow me to buy more cool toys-I mean tools. I plan on a lot of fairly commercial/industrial machines such as an Ironworker, large cnc plasma table, tube bender, shear/brake/roll, TIG, MIG, shop air, powder coat oven, heat treat furnace, you name it. All this stuff demands a fair amount of power and knowing this I picked up a 400A service panel from a Lowes that was closing down for 50% off. My house currently has 125 amp service which sounds like an oddball amount, and the service line comes in at the exact opposite side of the property from where the proposed shop will be. How much power should I be trying to shoot over to the shop and what size wire will it take? Also, if possible, I'd like to have the breakers for the shop at the shop instead of across the whole property. I'm also concerned because several years ago when my dad told the power company he wanted to upgrade his 60 amp service they told him they had the capacity to do so but were holding it in reserve in case it was needed for future use. WTF is that? Should I be worried about something similar? The power company has since been bought out by another company, but probably retained the same employees/management.
How many amps does it take to......
- Thread starter Ascinder
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Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
A "400 amp panel" is not something you would ever see at Lowes. Are you sure its not a 40 space, 200 amp panel?
125 amp service is quite common. You really would want to pull a feed off your house panel to run to your garage panel, thus not having to run a multitude of circuits from one end of the house to the other.
Depending on what kinds of things you plan to do in the garage, and the size of your house and types of appliances you have now, you may be able to get away with the 125 amp service. Is your heat propane or natural gas? is your water heater gas? what about your stove and ovens?
Do you plan on running welders, plasma cutters, compressors, etc in the shop? My biggest draw in the shop is the lights. If I work at night, I've got 6000 watts of lighting on. Beyond that, an air compressor is the big draw, and on rare occasion the welder. Face it, you generally use one thing at a time, you either drill on the drill press, you weld, you grind, you bandsaw, but you don't do all at once. Plasma is a big draw as the compressor and many times, a refrigeration type drier are running at once. Otherwise, its lights, and one item, usually for a limited amount of time.
Charles
125 amp service is quite common. You really would want to pull a feed off your house panel to run to your garage panel, thus not having to run a multitude of circuits from one end of the house to the other.
Depending on what kinds of things you plan to do in the garage, and the size of your house and types of appliances you have now, you may be able to get away with the 125 amp service. Is your heat propane or natural gas? is your water heater gas? what about your stove and ovens?
Do you plan on running welders, plasma cutters, compressors, etc in the shop? My biggest draw in the shop is the lights. If I work at night, I've got 6000 watts of lighting on. Beyond that, an air compressor is the big draw, and on rare occasion the welder. Face it, you generally use one thing at a time, you either drill on the drill press, you weld, you grind, you bandsaw, but you don't do all at once. Plasma is a big draw as the compressor and many times, a refrigeration type drier are running at once. Otherwise, its lights, and one item, usually for a limited amount of time.
Charles
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
A 400A panel would be HUGE !
Even if you are installing only a 200A panel, you might be better off having the power company install a new drop directly to the shop and then run the house as a "sub" off that panel.
Some of the equipment you mentioned (Ironworker) might require 3 phase power, in which case you will need a phase converter.
Plasma cutters draw a lot of power and also require air from a compressor at the same time. 200A service should handle that as long as you are not running any other equipment (MIG/TIG) at the same time.
Even if you are installing only a 200A panel, you might be better off having the power company install a new drop directly to the shop and then run the house as a "sub" off that panel.
Some of the equipment you mentioned (Ironworker) might require 3 phase power, in which case you will need a phase converter.
Plasma cutters draw a lot of power and also require air from a compressor at the same time. 200A service should handle that as long as you are not running any other equipment (MIG/TIG) at the same time.
Your first thing would to be see what the power company provides. If the area is residential your power company will probably make you pay for all material including transformers for any commercial service. In my case they wanted almost 8K just to add another 200 amp service at a commercial rate on a residential lot. I ended up adding a 400 amp meter base and splitting two 200 amp services one for the house and one for the shop. This was the least expensive route vs adding another service at a commercial rate for usage. The power company is required only to provide one drop per address, anything additional becomes commercial.
Mac
Mac
SmokinFletch
Member
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- Mar 13, 2012
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- 8
The power company is required only to provide one drop per address, anything additional becomes commercial.
Not always,
I had the local EMC drop a transformer and a meter to my shop in 2002 for the grand total of $25 bucks, and I pay a residential rate. My shop was permitted and inspected.
Not always,
I had the local EMC drop a transformer and a meter to my shop in 2002 for the grand total of $25 bucks, and I pay a residential rate. My shop was permitted and inspected.
Trust me, they got em. So does Home Depot. They don't show up online, but locally they are available. If you search google shopping for Csed 400A Ring 3Sp 40 Ckt then I think that's the one I have.
No gas service available to the property. I could get propane, but I already have all electric appliances. I have baseboard electric for heat, an electric double oven, washer, clothes dryer, 50 gal hot water heater, hot tub, fridge, dishwasher, garbage disposal, etc as large draw items currently.
Large CNC plasma table running(plus shop air, air dryer) while I am welding or using the Iron Worker. Also probably have a small cnc hobby mill/lathe running powder coating oven baking, and a power hacksaw rough cutting blanks. Also a ventilation fan and possibly heating or cooling system. I was looking at sodium vapor or metal halide type lights for lighting but I'm not sold either way yet. Don't forget I am setting up with the mindset of growing a small business here, so there may be more than one person working at the same time.
That was kind of the direction I was headed-have them upgrade the exisitng line and/or transformer to supply the 400A then split it out to the shop. I hadn't really planned on trying to get a commercial rate because I am installing solar right at the same time the shop is built to help offset the additional electrical cost. My buddy has a bigger place than me and he installed solarin his home a few years ago and the only power bill he now gets is a gas service charge. He has since bought an electric water hear since that was the only gas appliance still in his house, so now no power bill
It sounds like it depends a lot on your neck of the woods and maybe who you get that day. It seems like policies change based on who you talk to and what kind of day they're having.
Steve from Socal
Well-known member
No gas service available to the property. I could get propane, but I already have all electric appliances. I have baseboard electric for heat, an electric double oven, washer, clothes dryer, 50 gal hot water heater, hot tub, fridge, dishwasher, garbage disposal, etc as large draw items currently.
Large CNC plasma table running(plus shop air, air dryer) while I am welding or using the Iron Worker. Also probably have a small cnc hobby mill/lathe running powder coating oven baking, and a power hacksaw rough cutting blanks. Also a ventilation fan and possibly heating or cooling system. I was looking at sodium vapor or metal halide type lights for lighting but I'm not sold either way yet. Don't forget I am setting up with the mindset of growing a small business here, so there may be more than one person working at the same time.
That was kind of the direction I was headed-have them upgrade the exisitng line and/or transformer to supply the 400A then split it out to the shop. I hadn't really planned on trying to get a commercial rate because I am installing solar right at the same time the shop is built to help offset the additional electrical cost. My buddy has a bigger place than me and he installed solarin his home a few years ago and the only power bill he now gets is a gas service charge. He has since bought an electric water hear since that was the only gas appliance still in his house, so now no power bill
It sounds like it depends a lot on your neck of the woods and maybe who you get that day. It seems like policies change based on who you talk to and what kind of day they're having.
With the machines you mentioned running at the same time along with the house load your biggest issues is going to be a transformer with enough KVA. The shop load above is likely at or near capacity for a 200 amp service IF you truly plan to run all that at once.
Steve
Well I plan on being able to. Whether or not it actually happens I like to be set up to run full throttle. The house really only has 125A now, so really I could easily divert 275A to the shop with no issues. I have also switched much of my interior lighting over to LED so they aren't drawing max wattage, and almost all of my appliances are energy star+ so they aren't as power hungry as they could be with the exception of the water heater which is destined to be replaced shortly. I also have a woodstove that I haven't fired up yet and my house was built as passive solar with 4 8 foot and 2 6 foot sliding glass doors across the south side of the house. There is also a 4 foot strip of dark tile running next to the sliders to absorb and radiate heat, so the baseboard heaters are never really turned up to more than 4 out 10, and usually only 2.
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
Its a "Western thing". Those panels are not available in the east. In the east, meters are outside, panels are inside. The all in one panel and SE with meter are basically unheard of in the East. I had to change my Google shopping location to Reno to get it to show up, using the search term above.
Since you bought one with a meter socket, you will have to install jumper bars in the meter socket and a glass front, to use it without a meter, for your shop, which is no biggie. Done properly, code people should not give you any grief over that.
You didn't mention A/C. I have to assume you have it. That would be one of your large current consumers in the house.
Aha! a machine shop/welding/fabricating business! make a big difference in your requirements. You almost certainly are going to need to upgrade your house input to well above 125 amps. I suspect the code enforcement folks like to see marginal sized electric services on houses, this makes it difficult to impossible to run a small business without upgrading, and upgrading opens the door to questions as to why you need the service and flags you to be watched more closely in the future.
If the power company realizes you have a business, they will be hitting you for a commercial rate, and they will show you their service agreements where it says you agree to pay commercial rates if you have a business.
As far as lighting goes, you will do well to go fluorescent. Metal Halide is falling by the wayside. I have it because it is old technology and I was able to buy nice fixtures cheap, but its not efficient and unless you have quite a bit of height in the shop, they are not good to have. Mine are mounted with the bottoms of the fixtures 15 ft off the floor and that is fairly minimal. Fluorescent is much, much better, as you will be able to get better light distribution and use them at lower heights, notwithstanding they are more efficient. Sodium is that horrible orange light, and is quite efficient for outside security and general lighting, but useless for interior lighting.
That was kind of the direction I was headed-have them upgrade the exisitng line and/or transformer to supply the 400A then split it out to the shop. I hadn't really planned on trying to get a commercial rate because I am installing solar right at the same time the shop is built to help offset the additional electrical cost. My buddy has a bigger place than me and he installed solarin his home a few years ago and the only power bill he now gets is a gas service charge. He has since bought an electric water hear since that was the only gas appliance still in his house, so now no power bill
You don't want a commercial rate if you can help it, lots higher. Most power companies will make you pay a large part of the upgrade. If you currently have one of those western panels on your house, combined meter and panelboard, this is going to be a costly upgrade to rip all of that out and replace it, you will end up using the new panel you bought for the house, and installing a panelboard only for the garage. Problem is, the biggest breakers you can get for that panel are probably 125 amp, which will limit the subfeed to the garage. Lots of logistics here and isn't going to be cheap. Power Companies don't work for free. As someone noted, your transformer may need to be replaced.
POCO policies vary widely, and EMC's are most forgiving, and for profit POCO's are, well, for profit, and you get to pay.
Charles
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
It appears that THIS BROCHURE is the one that covers your panel. They do state that there are provisions for a second disconnect of up to 200 amps, so you could install this on your house in the place of the existing panel/meter socket/all in one and they buy the additional 200 amp disconnect and run a appropriate size feed to an additional panel in the new additon.
Note that this panel is 3 wire only, so you cannot use it as a subpanel, which would require four wires............
I may have mis-understood your original intentions for this.
Charles
Note that this panel is 3 wire only, so you cannot use it as a subpanel, which would require four wires............
I may have mis-understood your original intentions for this.
Charles
sberry
Banned
You will use about 1/3 the power you think you will.
Yeah, the plan was to run the 400A panel a replacement for the current panel and branch off to a sub at the shop. The meter has to be replaced anyways as our power company is trying to install remote read and power usage monitors statewide. In addition to this I have to get a special meter that allows for reverse feed into the grid due to the solar array being installed.
Nope. My house was designed as an super energy efficient active/passive solar setup in the late 70's. It has the passive solar gain stuff I mentioned earlier and at one point had an active solar water heating system. It also used a heat pump/recirculation system that basically forced hot air from the attic to the crawlspace to "charge up" a concrete thermal mass in the crawlspace. At night it would radiate the heat and the heat pump would shoot it through the house. In summer it would **** the cool crawlspace air up and into the attic to keep it cool. As far as function, I've heard it doesn't work quite as well as one would hope. The heat pump motor only drew 1/3 HP and is no longer installed anyways. I am looking at running a swamp cooler since the humidity here in the high mountain desert is never a concern and my buddy cools his house with one with great success.
Yep, but until they realize that I should be OK, and when they do realize it, I'll be able to claim it as a business expense. In either case, with the solar offset, it should never be too great of a concern. We have huge solar, wind geothermal, and hydroelectric incentives here. Per capita, we're #1 in the nation for alternative energy.
Also, looking at our service rate chart, the per kwh charge is less on commercial and the monthly service hookup fee is $24 instead of $9 for residential, all in all, not too bad.Yeah, I was only looking into it because they had a complete set on CL for super cheap and it seems like the bulbs last forever. My proposed shop is supposed to be 16' at the eaves, and a 6/12 roof pitch, so I might be a little on the low side for the halides anyways. Fluorescents are the clear choice then it seems.
But don't I have to plan to run at capacity? I would think having all the equipment mentioned that having them on individual circuits would be a priority if not mandatory for code and/or warranty/common sense reasons.
Back to one of the original questions: What size and type of line would I need to run 200A to the shop which is ~100ft away?
Falcon67
Well-known member
It'll be determined by the tariff on file with the state. In Texas - at least for AEP, the second meter is billed at commercial rates. Been there, paid that. We're on a co-op now and I could get one separate for the shop at regular rates. However, the min bill is $35 plus state taxes, so I've already paid for the wire that was required to connect the shop to the house.
ishiboo
Well-known member
And your location.
I have 3 meters, two for the house and one on the barn, all at "rural residential" rate. (a cent per KWH more than urban)
My investment properties which are all duplexes also have 2 meters each (some 3) at residential rate. Even the meter I use for laundry/outside lighting is billed residential.