How many people care about unpermitted electrical?

[Hobby_Man22]

I'm on the fence about pulling a permit to run conduit to my new shop, mainly due to the amount they raise property taxes every year in my area. Everytime you pull a permit they go back and re assess your property values and it's not uncommon for them to add $100k to the value in one year. You can fight it and then they'll only knock like $20k off. If you have someone install it that will install it up to code, is it really going to matter down the line when you sell the place? My electrical guy said he was cool with it since he doesn't have to pull the meter. Just adding another breaker basically and running the line.

Opinions? I would think if it passes inspection a new buyer won't care.

 

[mike93lx]

Not at all if the work is done well. That said, it could be used as a bargaining chip, but if someone is digging that deep, it's probably a bad deal anyway

 

[ratflinger]

If it's just an extra circuit then I'd just do it. The whole shop - that gets iffy.

 

[BrandonV]

Probably all depends on enforcement.

As long as the work meets all applicable codes I wouldn't worry.

Nobody pulls permits in Arizona except for businesses.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

If it's just an extra circuit then I'd just do it. The whole shop - that gets iffy.

It is the whole shop.

 

[Innovate1]

I added a circuit for a sump pump without a permit for a previous house. I disclosed a minor issue with water in that corner of the basement and that the pump had been added. I suppose they could have asked who did the work and about permits but they didn't and everything was fine. Part of the reason it was done that way is that area made it hard for homeowners to get a permit to do electrical work themselves - had to take a test, etc. Most places I have lived it just had to pass inspection.

A local friend had a garage built and didn't do the wiring under the permit. He must have done some of the prep work like the conduit from the house but he did most of the garage wiring after the permit was closed. It was mostly lights and nothing really big for wiring.

If they really dig into things they could read the date code on the conduit or wiring but I doubt that's going to happen very often. Sounds like you are running power to a detached building which is a bit more than just one circuit. If you know what needs to be done and/or trust the electrician to do it right I don't think you will have any trouble.

 

[WildBill]

If anything ever happens you would probably be denied an insurance claim, and could be liable if someone hits an undocumented power line.

 

[jblnut]

I do all kinds of electrical work around here without pulling permits. Once a year I have my local inspector come out and put new stickers on panels as needed and fix what he doesn’t like. I’ve had three inspectors in 10yrs here and no one has cared that I’m doing it myself. I had my Electrican wire the outlets and time consuming stuff in my shop after I did all the underground and wire pulling. He was happy to do the “easy stuff” and will come out on a whim when I need something done that I don’t want to do. Cold beer in the fridge and an envelope of cash on the counter help I’m sure lol.

 

[mike93lx]

If anything ever happens you would probably be denied an insurance claim, and could be liable if someone hits an undocumented power line.

These both feel like a big stretch. Insurance isn't contingent on permits and privately owned wiring on your property isn't documented anywhere. That's only utilities.

 

[Innovate1]

If you have neighbors that like to report this sort of stuff or AHJ that likes to look for it that might be the biggest issue since this is outside and maybe visible from the street. Usually people aren't that much looking for issues.

 

[micromind]

Around here, property taxes will go way up (double in a lot of cases) if you pull a permit for anything so the vast majority of work I do is without a permit.

 

[BrandonV]

Around here, property taxes will go way up (double in a lot of cases) if you pull a permit for anything so the vast majority of work I do is without a permit.

Are you telling me that boosting your property value $50k isn't realistic from replacing a PVC water main to copper?!?

No joke. I saw that happen overnight.

 

[Old tool guy]

These both feel like a big stretch. Insurance isn't contingent on permits .

Unless there is a fire, fire inspector says it was caused by electrical, insurance wants to go back on the permittee.

 

[MovingAlong]

Self-identifying unpermitted work was required on the disclosure pages for the last few houses I've sold and on other properties I've know about. Didn't hold up the sale. House I'm in now was bought "as is", estate sales don't know about the condition of the house or what work may or may not have been done.

I've pulled permits in various states for home work before (easement waivers, electric, plumbing, drywall, etc). Found the process simple to do, the inspectors friendly to work with and no impact on my taxes or assessments...

Obviously others have had negative experiences, thought I'd share my positive ones.

 

[BrandonV]

Unless there is a fire, fire inspector says it was caused by electrical, insurance wants to go back on the permittee.

Even then... unless the insurance company can show gross negligence they'll pay out.

I know two people who lost their house due to building home grown battery chargers in their garage and they didn't bat an eye.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Around here, property taxes will go way up (double in a lot of cases) if you pull a permit for anything so the vast majority of work I do is without a permit.

I screwed up and should have pulled the permit when I pulled the permit for the shop. That way it's just one blow instead of two.

 

[dave*99]

If anything ever happens you would probably be denied an insurance claim, and could be liable if someone hits an undocumented power line.

My current yard is full of undocumented power lines. All installed WITH a permit. I say undocumented because there is no map of their locations.

Now if you dig into a gas, water, sewer, or electric service and did not call 811 (Dig Safe) for a mark out and respect the flags....... it's the fault of whoever did the digging. Prior permits are irrelevant to this process.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Even then... unless the insurance company can show gross negligence they'll pay out.

I know two people who lost their house due to building home grown battery chargers in their garage and they didn't bat an eye.

Exactly. I don't think think there is anything that even shows where the conduit is. I think they just look at the wiring and look at the buried wired to make sure it's at the correct depth. I think it's like 18 inches around here.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

My current yard is full of undocumented power lines. All installed WITH a permit. I say undocumented because there is no map of their locations.

Now if you dig into a gas, water, sewer, or electric service and did not call 811 (Dig Safe) for a mark out and respect the flags....... it's the fault of whoever did the digging. Prior permits are irrelevant to this process.

That's what irritates me. Yeah you pulled a permit, but it doesn't do anything other than take your money. You would think the permit would have a drawing showing where it was buried, so it would help the next guy out.

 

[LopezBart]

With almost everything underground here, having a local guy come out and find and mark active power lines w/ spray paint is pretty standard. Another good reason to put power & water in the same trench.

 

[MovingAlong]

... it doesn't do anything other than take your money.

It also ensures that the work was designed to code in the plans submitted and the final work inspected/approved by the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).

 

[mike93lx]

It also ensures that the work was designed to code in the plans submitted and the final work inspected/approved by the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).

Based on the **** I have seen here that was inspected, I don't think I would say that it ensures anything. You can reasonably expect that it was designed to code though

 

[WildBill]

These both feel like a big stretch. Insurance isn't contingent on permits and privately owned wiring on your property isn't documented anywhere. That's only utilities.

I have seen both happen, 2-3 times where the insurance denied a fire claim because of wiring done without a permit and once where a previous owner was liable when the next owner hit a buried line that he didn't get a permit for. I do a lot of minor contracting work so was involved in these cases from that standpoint. Some in Idaho and some in Washington. Insurance will find any way possible not to pay, the wiring wasn't the source of the fires but the claims were still denied.

 

[gleman]

That's what irritates me. Yeah you pulled a permit, but it doesn't do anything other than take your money. You would think the permit would have a drawing showing where it was buried, so it would help the next guy out.

I had to submit two drawings and a lighting and receptacle plan to get my permit for my barns electrical install.

I'd bet they are still on file with the county.

 

[BrandonV]

I have seen both happen, 2-3 times where the insurance denied a fire claim because of wiring done without a permit and once where a previous owner was liable when the next owner hit a buried line that he didn't get a permit for. I do a lot of minor contracting work so was involved in theses cases from that standpoint. Some in Idaho and some in Washington. Insurance will find any way possible not to pay, the wiring wasn't the source of the fires but the claims were still denied.

This is crazy scary.

I'm shocked they could even locate permits pulled in the first place.

At least in Phoenix where the city is run fairly poorly you'd be lucky if they even knew your house existed.

Insurance companies pulling **** like that need a wakeup call.

I talked to someone who had their entire neighborhood destroyed and they were the only house that got a check cut immediately. Every other insurance agency dragged the process out.

 

[WildBill]

This is crazy scary.

I'm shocked they could even locate permits pulled in the first place.

At least in Phoenix where the city is run fairly poorly you'd be lucky if they even knew your house existed.

Insurance companies pulling **** like that need a wakeup call.

I talked to someone who had their entire neighborhood destroyed and they were the only house that got a check cut immediately. Every other insurance agency dragged the process out.

I refinanced my house a couple years ago (1.6%!) and the appraiser had every permit tied to my property since before I built my house 20 years ago in the appraisal packet. The insurance guy I talked to during one of the denied claims for a shop fire said they really look into outbuildings and shops because people are much less likely to get a permit, and that lets him deny the claims. He seemed very happy about it because his pay was wrapped around denying claims somehow.

 

[micromind]

Are you telling me that boosting your property value $50k isn't realistic from replacing a PVC water main to copper?!?

No joke. I saw that happen overnight.

A few years ago, I hooked up a hot tub for a friend. They wanted to get a permit so I guided them through the process of getting a homeowner permit. It cost something like $100 or so.

Nevada has a law that allows property taxes to go up only 3% per year regardless of assessed value. The assessed value goes up by a lot more than 3% per year.

If you pull a permit for anything, the 3% thing disappears and the taxes will go up to the latest assessed value.

Their taxes went from $2300 to $4800.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I have seen both happen, 2-3 times where the insurance denied a fire claim because of wiring done without a permit and once where a previous owner was liable when the next owner hit a buried line that he didn't get a permit for. I do a lot of minor contracting work so was involved in theses cases from that standpoint. Some in Idaho and some in Washington. Insurance will find any way possible not to pay, the wiring wasn't the source of the fires but the claims were still denied.

Insurance is a joke. If it wasn't that they would have wiggled out of it some other way.

 

[mepstein]

The wires were always there. End of story.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Insurance is a joke. If it wasn't that they would have wiggled out of it some other way.

They should have found the cause of the fire. If it's electrical, yeah you're sol. Personally I would lawyer up.

 

[LopezBart]

If you pull a permit for anything, the 3% thing disappears and the taxes will go up to the latest assessed value.

Their taxes went from $2300 to $4800.

Someone should explain to the local government that policies like that just teach people to avoid pulling permits. Some counties make one pull a permit to replace a water heater. If your taxes immediately jump to market rate if you have to replace your water heater, what happens? People don't pull permits for water heaters. Force established companies to pull permits when replacing water heaters? Home owners hire shady handymen to replace water heaters.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Someone should explain to the local government that policies like that just teach people to avoid pulling permits. Some counties make one pull a permit to replace a water heater. If your taxes immediately jump to market rate if you have to replace your water heater, what happens? People don't pull permits for water heaters. Force established companies to pull permits when replacing water heaters? Home owners hire shady handymen to replace water heaters.

That's what happened to me. It would go up about 3 percent a year. As soon as I pulled my permit my assessed value more than doubled. Although it was probably lower than it should have been before the permit

 

[Innovate1]

When I added a shop building here I wanted to connect a half bath to the existing septic. The AHJ asked about the details of the system. I said "I don't remember. The permits were through you." They said they changed systems (It was 20 years ago) and all they had is that I did have a permit but no details other than the date. The permit for the shop only required a floor plan (with no details on electric), a wall cross section, and a site plan (which was a screen grab from google maps that I sketched in the shop location. How much info may vary hugely from area to area but the places I have been don't have details of the electrical. Even when I was going to build in St. Louis county, who were very **** about every little detail, they did not require electrical system details. They did require a permit for replacing a water heater although I seriously doubt everyone gets one.

So to the OP, it really depends on how much data the AHJ keeps on permits and electrical details.

 

[Rc_Guy]

If anything ever happens you would probably be denied an insurance claim, and could be liable if someone hits an undocumented power line.

Unless there is a fire, fire inspector says it was caused by electrical, insurance wants to go back on the permittee.

So why would insurance fix your car if you drive drunk? Why would insurance fix your house if you fell asleep with a cigarette? Usually, unless it is arson, they pay to fix the house or building. I think that is why they call them accidents. I wired my whole lower level in my other house and ran wire underground to my shop and wired the whole shop and never had a permit for any of it and I disclosed it when I sold the house, the buyer had a inspection when they put in the offer and everything passed.

 

[dave*99]

the buyer had a inspection when they put in the offer and everything passed

An inspection by the AHJ or by their private inspectors?

 

[rancherbill]

I'm on the fence about pulling a permit to run conduit to my new shop, mainly due to the amount they raise property taxes every year in my area. Everytime you pull a permit they go back and re assess your property values and it's not uncommon for them to add $100k to the value in one year. You can fight it and then they'll only knock like $20k off. If you have someone install it that will install it up to code, is it really going to matter down the line when you sell the place? My electrical guy said he was cool with it since he doesn't have to pull the meter. Just adding another breaker basically and running the line.

Opinions? I would think if it passes inspection a new buyer won't care.

So you are planning on committing property tax shenanigans / fraud and you want GJ members to say it's OK. It's not OK to get us involved in your activities.

If you have a problem with taxes, go and get elected and change th e tax system.

 

[Zeke]

No one mentioned taking lots of pics during the installation. If needed, you can use those to get yourself out of a jam sometimes if the issue comes up. You can say that you had to do the work w/o a permit due to this and that, COVID, whatever. Asking forgiveness is sometimes easier than asking for permission.

IDT I'll get into the morality side of this. I've installed hundreds of replacement windows that were only an insert to the existing wood jamb and sill. My city requires a permit for the change out. Why? Because they want to see that egress and tempered glass requirements were heeded. Somethings don't grandfather and bedroom egress is one.

I did it right for my protection. On the few that got inspected the inspector didn't hardly look. Some didn't look at the requirements at all and were more interested in the caulking. WTF?

These days I wouldn't do anything as a contractor w/o a permit. One reason I retired and quit. This is California.

 

[Sumboodie]

My land, I do what I want. "The crown" can kiss my unwashed ***.

 

[manwithtools]

That's what irritates me. Yeah you pulled a permit, but it doesn't do anything other than take your money. You would think the permit would have a drawing showing where it was buried, so it would help the next guy out.

It also ensures that the work was designed to code in the plans submitted and the final work inspected/approved by the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).

Ha, that's funny. I just got a permit to install an inground pool. Permit cost was based on pool size and flatwork sq footage. Came to $180, I had to provide a plot drawing with distance from property lines dimensioned, sign a septic waiver and provide the project cost. As we completed the permit application the clerk says "Oh, BTW we don't do any inspection of pools so you won't have to call us to come out"

No one even came and looked at the property and setbacks before issuing the permit. They stapled the permit to a utility pole 500 feet from my house and emailed me a picture of it.

Now if that process was not setup to allow property re-assessment and nothing else, I don't know how else to respond.

 

[manwithtools]

BTW, I want to clarify my previous post. I had to pull a separate permit for the electrical on the pool and there will be inspections for that. That is something that I am thankful for. Improperly installed electrical around a pool is not good.