Walkers
Well-known member
Wouldn't bother me a bit. Just do it per code and take lots of pictures in the event it needs permitting later.
How many people care about unpermitted electrical?
- Thread starter Hobby_Man22
- Start date
The City Manager of San Jose about 12 or so years ago had her contractor pull an electrical permit (from the city was the top person in) to MOVE 3 existing outlets in a kitchen. The fee was 800 plus dollars!
She was pissed and wondering why it was so expensive. She had her staff research with the Building Dept. what all the costs (that city allegedly has cost recovery for how they charge ) were.
Things like the rent allocation (for city hall space) for the various departments involved in review within the city, debt service for the bonds for the new city hall (like 150 bucks!), sewer treatment plant fee, retirement and staff benefits and the list went on and on. Only about 175 bucks was for the review and ONE inspection.
Most places the fees are a source of revenue…not all places, but the above example comes to mind.
She was pissed and wondering why it was so expensive. She had her staff research with the Building Dept. what all the costs (that city allegedly has cost recovery for how they charge ) were.
Things like the rent allocation (for city hall space) for the various departments involved in review within the city, debt service for the bonds for the new city hall (like 150 bucks!), sewer treatment plant fee, retirement and staff benefits and the list went on and on. Only about 175 bucks was for the review and ONE inspection.
Most places the fees are a source of revenue…not all places, but the above example comes to mind.
acer66
Well-known member
Yeah, I pulled a permit for the feed to my detached garage and only did the minimum required circuits which I think was a light and one receptacle and now there are all sorts of circuits flying around.
Inspector did not even blink an eye that a 90A breaker was feeding a big 100A sub in the garage with one light and receptacle.
I am close to a booming city and there are developments around me everywhere so I am sure they will get more stingy with bigger non permitted stuff like they did in the city soon too when it comes to selling etc.
But I am also not sure if a feed to a garage would raise a flag though.
good to know. Carson City is one of the areas we are looking at for retirement to build a home and shop. anything else weird about the area we should know?
oldmachinenut
Well-known member
This, I was an elected official in our community years ago. Permits were a revenue source and the inspections were just a formality not a guarantee of work quality.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
Guess it depends on if you know a good eletrical guy or not. My guy has people calling him from 500 miles away because they don't know of anyone local that does good work.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
They have to cover everyone's salary. Lol
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Well, being you are in Texas, 500 miles would make him the neighborhood electrician
isb cornbinder
Well-known member
That is wonderful to show that level of bravery, maybe. If you have a fire or other insurable property damage and a post event investigation finds an uninspected/permitted circuit, your insurer may have what it needs to refuse coverage.
Attachments
dcg9381
Well-known member
With code changes, you never "pass" electrical inspection. You might pass for the year built, but non-electrician home inspectors some in, figure the year built and were probably handed some cliffs notes sheet in "house inspection" school that tells them the flag homes for the various changes.
IMHO, this all depends on the market.
And most "home inspectors" - I've never seen one open a panel. I have seen them "test" a GFI, but that's about it. I know zero home inspectors (and I know 3 of them personally) that are worth a damn in terms of handy.
The potential couple looking at a home: wife probably gives zero F's on the lack of GFCI's in the 2000+ sqft man-cave / shop as long as she's got a 400 foot closet with an island, Champaign bar, and a wall full of shoe display case. Give her that and it'll sell the house.
Seriously though, in "lesser" homes like the ones I've sold, they're welcome to bring their inspector to the home - that's reasonable, but the shop is sold "as-is, where-is, in current condition". I've never had a single problem and I have had shops sell the house, despite what people say... The current county evaluation of my shop (no windows) is about $0.25 on the dollar for what I've got into it with me doing most of the work. I want to keep it that way.
micromind
Well-known member
Western Nevada, in my opinion is not a bad place to live. The weather is usually good though we recently had 14" of snow but that's rare. Usually it'll snow a couple of inches and it's gone in a day or so.
Carson is a fairly decent town but it can get crowded when the legislature is in session.
Nevada doesn't have a State income tax but the sales tax is around to 8% in a lot of places.
Car registration can be expensive but drivers license fees are small. Insurance seems less than a lot of other places.
The tax on buying a car is about 4% if I remember. There's also a real estate tax but I don't remember how much it is.
Houses are EXPENSIVE, quite a bit more than other places.
Electric is about 18¢ per KWHR, likely to keep going up. The electric utility is owned by Warren Buffet........he wants his money........
There's quite a bit of solar, every company uses high pressure sales tactics and lots and lots of .....well.......less than total honesty........Basically, if you pay for the installation, it's a pretty good investment. If you finance it, the net will most likely be a loss. Especially if you figure in the increase in property taxes, it can be a LOT.
If you're into it, there are 3 legal cathouses within 20 minutes of Carson.
Food is generally pretty good. Also, uncooked food is exempt from sales tax.
Social Security, pensions, 401ks, etc. are not taxed.
There are wild horses all over the place. On the 20 mile stretch from Carson to Silver Springs, about 30 of them get hit with cars. If you hit one (and live to tell about it), it'll cost you $1500. Generally, horses are pretty smart....not these ones. But all the big-shots like the wild horses so car damage, deaths, etc. never makes the news.
That's all I can think of for now.
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dcg9381
Well-known member
Reference? I mean, it "could" happen. But does it happen more than claims for lightening strike damage? I'd doubt it.
The "traceability" of changes to homes, associated permits, and WHEN they were done seems like it'd be impossible to prove, let along after a major destructive event. Let alone in a house that's 50+ years old.
Where I'm up tight is when the municipality actually does come in and verify changes and makes the prior owner sign off that their have been none.. That's how they do septic here. And if you sign off on "no changes" and some are found 10 years later, you're liable for the fix.
dcg9381
Well-known member
Well, you can pool your money with his.
That seems odd to me. Financing it at "prior" interest rates, say 5% year, that doesn't seem like enough to throw off the economics. I know interest rates are higher now and I have also seen that the whole PV industry is taking a dive due to the fact that the majority of installs are financed.. so maybe interest rates on these are 10% or more.
What you're not factoring in... And what I failed to factor in:
They can change the payback rules at any time. They cut my payback by 50%, even with a self-installed system, that put break-even out another decade... Just because you're buying at .18kWh, doesn't mean they will keep paying you at that rate. To keep getting that rate, you have to store it and use it. Those systems cost 100%+ more and estimated lifetimes, maybe 10 years.
Some things will always make money. Legal? Someone is taxing and probably regulating it for safety it which seems smart as we've never been able (in human history) to eliminate it.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I rarely get a permit unless the POCO is going to be involved. It's hard to get a connection without a release from the AHJ.
dcg9381
Well-known member
Here, we do what the POCO says. They give zero F's about code. You do what they say and cannot argue that my solar system doesn't need physical disconnects because it's compliant with 2020 NECs requirement for "rapid shut down". You give the the physical disconnects that the poco wants to see because that's the only way they'll connect you.
The POCO will inspect and sign off without the AHJ. And they've never opened a disconnect. My disconnects could have had McDonalds french fries in them as long as they were "readily accessible" and labelled correctly.
micromind
Well-known member
It's completely legal provided certain conditions are met. It's also heavily regulated and taxed but completely legal.
As to making money......Quite a few years ago, the guy who owned the Mustang Ranch sort of forgot to pay his taxes so rather than being arrested, he fled to Mexico. Eventually, the IRS seized the property and was actually operating a legal brothel. Not all that long after, it went bankrupt.........
Only the government could possibly lose money operating a legal cathouse.........lol.
little snow don't bother me, but I know you get some hellacious winds thru there
compared to Austin? I'll take it. we were i the area last August. took the loop around CC, total of ~15 minutes?
8.25% in Texas
about $75-80/yr here for registration. drivers license is good for 6 yrs for less than $80
6% vehicle sales tax here, no real estate tax
must be relative. I checked housing prices there and compared to my area....average home here is $500-700k, depending on amenities, size, etc
have no clue on the cost here, just know what I pay on average every month. and I know solar is kinda wacky
only "prepared food" (pizza slice, piece of cake, etc) is taxed here. groceries are not taxed.
one of the reasons we are looking at the area
yeah, that kind of thing would tend to ****
more info than I had before. Thanks!
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I wish I had it that way. I deal with one large, one medium, and several small POCO's and not a single one of them will come out to inspect their side until there is an inspection and release from whatever jurisdiction I'm dealing with at the time. I do have a few municipalities that have no clue what they are looking at though.Here, we do what the POCO says. They give zero F's about code. You do what they say and cannot argue that my solar system doesn't need physical disconnects because it's compliant with 2020 NECs requirement for "rapid shut down". You give the the physical disconnects that the poco wants to see because that's the only way they'll connect you.
The POCO will inspect and sign off without the AHJ. And they've never opened a disconnect. My disconnects could have had McDonalds french fries in them as long as they were "readily accessible" and labelled correctly.
I'd be all for permits and inspections if there was a single ounce of accountability. Say something passes and then years later it's found that the inspector didn't actually do his job. But it's just a cash grab. I've had many electrical issues that passed inspection.
Doozer75
Well-known member
ratflinger
Well-known member
I hear this all the time and it's simply not true. A home owner is allowed to work on his own property, at least in Texas where the OP is. Undocumented power line??? Last house we put in a well and needed to know where the power line was buried, power company did the install, you think there were any records? Best answer was, "they dug a ditch and dropped in the cable". Yep, they used UF in a ditch (we found the run). So, you going to sue the city owned power company? Yeah, didn't think so.
Crazyjake8493
Well-known member
Never permitted anything I've done at my own house, but I can assure you every single thing I've done has been to code. I ran a new feeder to my garage, re-wired the garage, and re-wired 90% of the house. I've "assisted" family and friends with their unpermitted work as well.
The only issues people have around here are the visible things - outbuildings, fences, decks, new stairs, etc.
The only issues people have around here are the visible things - outbuildings, fences, decks, new stairs, etc.
ratflinger
Well-known member
Many rural counties have no code. Insurance companies pay off without issue. Never had anyone ask about permits, never seen an appraiser with permits. Usually some schmuck getting $100 to guess at you home's value.
add a circuit for a receptacle or light? probably not.
major work ? yeah
my shop? yeah, it got a permit , why not?
major work ? yeah
my shop? yeah, it got a permit , why not?
ratflinger
Well-known member
Unless it was required then why?
nadogail
Well-known member
Permits are good to ensure that minimum standards are being met.
No such thing as permits here, not that I'd bother with one anyhow.
here anything done is supposed to be inspected, unless the electrician self inspects . even the they are supposed to log everything .
supposed to & what gets permitted is a huge difference tho.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I almost think I should make a drawing and keep it inside the panel. Unless that's a fire hazard
Many years ago I did a bootleg service change & rewire of a house, the old service had been bootlegged before w/ a 100A service supplied by 3 individual 2 AWG AL conductors laying loosely in the attic, supplied by 6 AWG copper SE cable, only things that were reused was the meter & the OH triplex cable, fast forward 14 years (2001), I had my lic. & tenants set that house on fire, not sure how, either drugs or grease in the kitchen, but no structural damage, & a total gut, the county discovered the family room was not permitted, the insurance company paid out & I was paid twice to rewire it, the main service that was bootlegged originally is still there since the fire never touched it.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
A sale usually triggers a reassessment, so that is a completely different scenario than a person doing renovation work in a house they've lived in for a while.
The taxes on my current house jumped almost 30% after we bought for that reason.
dave*99
Well-known member
We have electrical, plumbing, fire inspectors that do inspections associated with permits and new construction.
When you sell your house a housing inspector inspects the house. It’s a less rigorous inspection by a less trained inspector.
They recently discovered there are thousands of open permits in their records. Now when you sell your house all permits must be closed out. And that will bring out the electrical, plumbing and fire inspectors.
When you sell your house a housing inspector inspects the house. It’s a less rigorous inspection by a less trained inspector.
They recently discovered there are thousands of open permits in their records. Now when you sell your house all permits must be closed out. And that will bring out the electrical, plumbing and fire inspectors.
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
I'm not familiar with regulations in Texas, but that sounds like your electrician could be putting his license in jeopardy by doing unpermitted work. If he's willing to cut corners on that, what other things will he cut corners on.
acer66
Well-known member
I like to see what people would say if the inspectors would take their time and go over little detail and write you up for every code violation.
Here as a home owner you can do your own electric after you passed their test.
They stopped doing the test because people were complaining that it was too hard.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I can't speak for everywhere in the country, but here, we are supposed to get a permit for just about anything. Nobody does that because it's a good way to not get the job. "I'm sorry sir, but adding that GFCI receptacle and the 20 amp circuit that it is on, placed right underneath your electrical panel, that will take me 10 minutes to install, is going to cost $500.00. $150.00 for the labor, $30 for the trip charge $10 for the box, $25 for the GFCI, $25 for the breaker, $10 for the wire, AND $150 for the permit and another $100 to meet the inspector. They're going to find some hack on craigslist that will install a regular receptacle that may or may not have a box and connect it to a piece of 14/2, maybe 12/2 and jam it under a breaker that is already there for $100 out the door.
I do occasionally give people the option for a permit on larger jobs like basement finishes and kitchen remodels. I can't think of a time when the answer was yes. Once they find out that if I get a permit, everyone has to get a permit and the tax assessor will be out within a year, they say no. If someone requested me to get a permit over something stupid, I'd jack the price sky high just to not get the job.
acer66
Well-known member
$150 permit fee for adding a receptacle?
Autsch!
$100 for meeting the inspector?
That would be cheap here because they have a time window that would make even the worst cable company installer jealous.
ratflinger
Well-known member
If only
ratflinger
Well-known member
And why is that? Because NJ wants the money, they don't gave a damn about the correctness.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
No, it would probably be about $50 but it's my time and my license that are getting it.
They give us a time window of 30 minutes. If they tell me 9:00 a.m., they won't be earlier than that but might not be there till 9:30$100 for meeting the inspector?
That would be cheap here because they have a time window that would make even the worst cable company installer jealous.
Tomato tomotto