How to add structural support under this joist?

[orioncyg]

I'm adding a 125 gallon aquarium in my living room along an exterior wall, and this will generate about 1300 lbs of load for a 9 sq ft area so about 145 lb/sqft.

The length of this aquarium is unfortunately parallel to the joist and I think it's also only going to span this single joist, so I would like to had structural support under this joist. The aquarium is 6' long and about 19" wide (about 9 sq ft surface area)

The house is a 1927 tudor.

Here's a video showing the joist for which I would like to add a structural support:

https://imgur.com/1JQx73N

Here are some pics:




The joists are about 1.5" thick and 9" in height.

As you can see from the video and pics, there's a lot going on there... electrical, plumbing, HVAC ducting....

There's not a clear exposed portion of the joist under the aquarium's footprint where I can get a support beam in there. The direct vertical path between the joist and the ground is partially blocked by electrical and the PVC pipe. The electrical is probably easy to move but not the PVC pipe.


How can I go about adding structural support like a jack post or lally column? Would I have to move some of the stuff around to get this to work?

 

[Codyboy]

Does it have a stand with legs or is it a cabinet type stand?

 

[Hank11]

I think you posted the same picture multiple times. See if you can delete all but 1.

I’d probably build something that spans several joist with posts all the way to the floor to a bottom plate to spread the load on the floor. Build a stud wall under the load so to speak.

 

[orioncyg]

Does it have a stand with legs or is it a cabinet type stand?

The latter I think if I understand what you mean by "cabinet". specifically, it's this ensemble: https://www.petsmart.com/aquariums/...pwAGRWtOn7xUGk31TbI_hzx9NHllW9LkaAmeFEALw_wcB

The stand and aquarium came together.

 

[orioncyg]

I think you posted the same picture multiple times. See if you can delete all but 1.

I’d probably build something that spans several joist with posts all the way to the floor to a bottom plate to spread the load on the floor. Build a stud wall under the load so to speak.

oh man. sorry. I meant to post 9 different pics. one moment. I will edit

 

[orioncyg]

Ok just fixed the pics

 

[orioncyg]

I think you posted the same picture multiple times. See if you can delete all but 1.

I’d probably build something that spans several joist with posts all the way to the floor to a bottom plate to spread the load on the floor. Build a stud wall under the load so to speak.

I think the tank will sit on 1, and at most 2 joists (the 2 shown in the video). I'm not positive it's going to go all the way to the 2nd joist.
It seems what you're suggesting is I should get some wood block and fasten it to those 2 joists horizontally, and then at the middle of the would block, I can put a vertical post that transfers the load to some bottom plate (ideally one that covers are large surface area)?

 

[JSGAuto]

How much time do you have? I did the same project when my wife bought a 250 gallon glass tank + all the sumps. Landed on one joist, going parallel, just like yours....of course that's where she wanted it!

I'd pull down the HVAC (temporally) and add additional 2X10s across the span. Nail/glue/screw them to the existing will create a beam. Then replace ducts. I did the load calcs when I did mine, but over did it.......Lumber is cheap, put up as many as you can fit.

Jim

 

[Jeff95TA]

Is there room to put posts under the joist, and can you live with them taking up space?

 

[orioncyg]

How much time do you have? I did the same project when my wife bought a 250 gallon glass tank + all the sumps. Landed on one joist, going parallel, just like yours....of course that's where she wanted it!

I'd pull down the HVAC (temporally) and add additional 2X10s across the span. Nail/glue/screw them to the existing will create a beam. Then replace ducts. I did the load calcs when I did mine, but over did it.......Lumber is cheap, put up as many as you can fit.

Jim

unfortunately don't have a lot of free time but I can try to put time together for this. however, I'm not the most handy person, and I really don't want to move HVAC around. that duct is little flexible but it sounds like you're suggesting disconnecting? otherwise how can I pull it down?
I just ordered a jack stand. I'm going to see if I can finagle it in there. i suspect partial blockage, but it might fit.

 

[orioncyg]

Is there room to put posts under the joist, and can you live with them taking up space?

definitely can live with them taking up space.

in terms of room, it depends on where under the joist. in the area under the aquarium, there's limited room (but see my comment above). outside the area, there are some free spots where it won't be an issue to get a post under there, but I think the most optimal place would be be somewhere in the middle of the aquarium, which would be just to the right of that electrical junction box (the one you see fastened to the joist)

 

[cgrutt]

Is there room to glue and screw a 2x4 horizontally under the joist like the lower portion of an "I" beam? Then run a 4x4 post to concrete somewhere near center span of the tank? Also you might want to think about putting a 3/4 piece of plywood under cabinet to help distribute load.

What floor do you have? If its hardwood running perpendicular to joists you may be OK provided ends are sitting on joist supported by foundation wall.

 

[Codyboy]

I'm not an engineer but maybe one could pop in this thread.
145lbs per sq ft is approximately lb per sq inch.

I do not know the loads for a 2x10 but I would think they could handle it.
The floor board itself is what I would be looking at.
What is the floorboard made from?
If its thick tongue and groove hardwood or similar I would look at the base cabinet instead.
If the cabinet just has a perimeter that will contact the floor you can fix that by using 3/4 plywood in the bottom.
Basically make the bottom of the cabinet a solid piece to spread the load .

Eta. I see now that @cgrutt mentioned that in his last paragraph about the floor itself.

 

[tarmy]

You outa clean up the romex…and no proper fittings going into a metal box is no bueno as well. Then either pour a few pads/use anchor blocks and add a double 4x4 and tie it all together with some Simpson brackets. If you are feeling frisky…take a 4x6 and set that under the joist (in areas where it will fit) and support that with 2 or three posts…problem solved.

 

[billconner]

I'm sure it won't fail. The question is how much more will it deflect. Put in something to measure - a stick or pole or use a laser - and load up the floor.

If you halve the span of the 2x10 you nearly double it's bending load, so a post near the middle of the joist would be the most you need. A lally column - aka adjustable Jack post - would be simple.

 

[cgrutt]

I'm sure it won't fail. The question is how much more will it deflect. Put in something to measure - a stick or pole or use a laser - and load up the floor.

If you halve the span of the 2x10 you nearly double it's bending load, so a post near the middle of the joist would be the most you need. A lally column - aka adjustable Jack post - would be simple.

If floor deflects "enough" it could cause tank to fail.

 

[andyvh1959]

One single screw jackpost midspan under the tank area would be plenty to handle the load and any possible defelection under the load. Then in the future if the tank is gone just remove the jackpost. Most any home improvement store will have a jackpost.

 

[orioncyg]

Is there room to glue and screw a 2x4 horizontally under the joist like the lower portion of an "I" beam? Then run a 4x4 post to concrete somewhere near center span of the tank? Also you might want to think about putting a 3/4 piece of plywood under cabinet to help distribute load.

What floor do you have? If its hardwood running perpendicular to joists you may be OK provided ends are sitting on joist supported by foundation wall.

hm I think I'm having trouble visualizing the 2x4. Would the 2" be aligned with the thickness of the joist?
The cabinet has a flat bottom surface, I think (see https://www.petsmart.com/aquariums/...pwAGRWtOn7xUGk31TbI_hzx9NHllW9LkaAmeFEALw_wcB) so I don't think the plywood is needed? The load should be uniformly distributed across that entire 9 sq ft bottom surface of the cabinet
I have 2 1/4" red oak flooring, and yes they're perpendicular to the joists

I'm attaching a pic here of the tank for reference. In the left, you can see the heat register. That one should be aligned with the HVAC duct in between the 2 joists that we see in the video

 

[orioncyg]

I'm not an engineer but maybe one could pop in this thread.
145lbs per sq ft is approximately lb per sq inch.

I do not know the loads for a 2x10 but I would think they could handle it.
The floor board itself is what I would be looking at.
What is the floorboard made from?
If its thick tongue and groove hardwood or similar I would look at the base cabinet instead.
If the cabinet just has a perimeter that will contact the floor you can fix that by using 3/4 plywood in the bottom.
Basically make the bottom of the cabinet a solid piece to spread the load .

Eta. I see now that @cgrutt mentioned that in his last paragraph about the floor itself.

Is the floor board the layer in between the hardwood and joists? If so, I think it's some kind of wood. You can kind of see it in the video and pics. It looks like it runs at an angle to the joists

 

[orioncyg]

You outa clean up the romex…and no proper fittings going into a metal box is no bueno as well. Then either pour a few pads/use anchor blocks and add a double 4x4 and tie it all together with some Simpson brackets. If you are feeling frisky…take a 4x6 and set that under the joist (in areas where it will fit) and support that with 2 or three posts…problem solved.

I'm unfortunatley new to homeowner and don't know much about this. What's wrong with the romex an dmetal box?

 

[orioncyg]

I'm sure it won't fail. The question is how much more will it deflect. Put in something to measure - a stick or pole or use a laser - and load up the floor.

If you halve the span of the 2x10 you nearly double it's bending load, so a post near the middle of the joist would be the most you need. A lally column - aka adjustable Jack post - would be simple.

hmm I don't think it should be middle of the joist? I think it should be middle of where the tank will sit?

 

[mikedodge]

From that pic of the aquarium it looks like it's deep enough to the wall that it will sit on top of the one joist and maybe more. Get a 4x4 or jack post to help support the joist or maybe a couple so you could put one on either end of the aquarium to divide the load. That and the flooring is stronger then how the base of that aquarium is probably constructed.

 

[cgrutt]

Is the floor board the layer in between the hardwood and joists? If so, I think it's some kind of wood. You can kind of see it in the video and pics. It looks like it runs at an angle to the joists

That's the subfloor probably 3/4 tongue & groove run at diagonal to floor joists followed by your flooring which is run perpendicular to floor joists. Assuming everything is solid (no rot) that's a very strong flooring system. They don't build houses like that anymore.

It would be better if the joists were perpendicular to tank but it is what it is. I think if you can get at least one post on that joist about mid span of tank you should be fine. It would probably be better if could sister another joist against that 1st joist, but you don't have much room to work with. That's why I suggested running 2x4 horizontally on bottom of joist it will stiffen it up a bit more, but if you can run a post to concrete you should be fine. If floor (concrete) is not solid you may want to put post on a base to spread that out a bit. Not 100% necessary just peace of mind.

Is your floor (upstairs) flat and level?

 

[billconner]

hmm I don't think it should be middle of the joist? I think it should be middle of where the tank will sit?

It shouldn't matter. I said cutting span in half doubles the capacity but I should have said it quadruples the capacity. Bending moments ares an inverse square regarding length. So if the joist supports 40 psf - normal design for a living room - the floor supported by the joist with added support at center should support 160 psf.

Center under tank would be fine but if obstructed by pipes, ducts, whatever, it shouldn't matter if not directly under tank.

 

[orioncyg]

From that pic of the aquarium it looks like it's deep enough to the wall that it will sit on top of the one joist and maybe more. Get a 4x4 or jack post to help support the joist or maybe a couple so you could put one on either end of the aquarium to divide the load. That and the flooring is stronger then how the base of that aquarium is probably constructed.

I don't see another joist past the one in question (the cluttered one with the junction box attached to it) in the direction of the foundation wall. I think that one might be the first joist starting from the wall?

I ordered a jack post. I'm not confident I'm going to have a straight vertical line between the bottom of the joist and the ground, given the stuff in the way

 

[Burt Shaver]

and this will generate about 1300 lbs of load

unfortunately don't have a lot of free time

I'm not the most handy person

Have you considered hiring a professional? You mention you don’t have much time and you’re not the handiest. This could be a great opportunity to delegate this and concentrate your efforts elsewhere.

 

[orioncyg]

That's the subfloor probably 3/4 tongue & groove run at diagonal to floor joists followed by your flooring which is run perpendicular to floor joists. Assuming everything is solid (no rot) that's a very strong flooring system. They don't build houses like that anymore.

It would be better if the joists were perpendicular to tank but it is what it is. I think if you can get at least one post on that joist about mid span of tank you should be fine. It would probably be better if could sister another joist against that 1st joist, but you don't have much room to work with. That's why I suggested running 2x4 horizontally on bottom of joist it will stiffen it up a bit more, but if you can run a post to concrete you should be fine. If floor (concrete) is not solid you may want to put post on a base to spread that out a bit. Not 100% necessary just peace of mind.

Is your floor (upstairs) flat and level?

TO clarify what you mean by "running 2x4 horizontally on bottom of joist," do you mean align the 2" dimensions? so basically the joist (2x10) + 2x4 will turn into a continuous 2x14" board?

None of my floors in the house are perfectly level unfortunately. Where the aquarium is sitting currently, it slopes a bit away from the exterior wall, probably by 0.25-0.5". I will have to shim the viewing edge of the frame to level it.

 

[orioncyg]

Have you considered hiring a professional? You mention you don’t have much time and you’re not the handiest. This could be a great opportunity to delegate this and concentrate your efforts elsewhere.

Yeah I'm considering it but it'll be very expensive, and my first year as a homeowner hasn't been positive w.r.t contractors. more often than not, I find them incompetent

 

[cgrutt]

TO clarify what you mean by "running 2x4 horizontally on bottom of joist," do you mean align the 2" dimensions? so basically the joist (2x10) + 2x4 will turn into a continuous 2x14" board?

None of my floors in the house are perfectly level unfortunately. Where the aquarium is sitting currently, it slopes a bit away from the exterior wall, probably by 0.25-0.5". I will have to shim the viewing edge of the aquarium to level it.

No, the 4" dimension to the 2" joist like an inverted "T".

Be very careful how you shim the aquarium. I'd either level the floor or shim the cabinet not the glass. Imbalances can cause glass to break (assuming its glass) or seams to leak. Also, any shim will in effect be reducing the square footage of where weight is distributed. You may be able to use floor leveling compound and form a level base for your cabinet. May need some additional trim around base with it being off by so much.

 

[Burt Shaver]

TO clarify what you mean by "running 2x4 horizontally on bottom of joist," do you mean align the 2" dimensions? so basically the joist (2x10) + 2x4 will turn into a continuous 2x14" board?

None of my floors in the house are perfectly level unfortunately. Where the aquarium is sitting currently, it slopes a bit away from the exterior wall, probably by 0.25-0.5". I will have to shim the viewing edge of the aquarium to level it.

Make sure you shim the entire perimeter (well 3 sides) if it’s a cabinet style stand

 

[orioncyg]

No, the 4" dimension to the 2" joist like an inverted "T".

Be very careful how you shim the aquarium. I'd either level the floor or shim the cabinet not the glass. Imbalances can cause glass to break (assuming its glass) or seams to leak. Also, any shim will in effect be reducing the square footage of where weight is distributed. You may be able to use floor leveling compound and form a level base for your cabinet. May need some additional trim around base with it being off by so much.

Apologies. I mispoke and will correct it. I mean I will shim the frame the aquarium sits on, definiely not the aquarium
What I'm thinking of doing is having is having a layer of plywood/PVC/LVP right above the hardwood to protect the hardwood floor. And then I'll put the frame on top of that, and in between the frame and plywood/PVC/LVP will be the shim

The 2x4 might work. My jack post arrives monday/tuesday. I'm going to see what the vertical path looks like before decide what to do

 

[orioncyg]

Make sure you shim the entire perimeter (well 3 sides) if it’s a cabinet style stand

It's this aquarium and frame from the picture https://www.petsmart.com/fish/tanks...pmt7Rgz0J5CqGaTRoC6BMQAvD_BwE&redirected=true

I checked bottom surface of the frame and it's a flat surface. Hm I was planning on just shimming along the front edge (6') in length extending from side to side. It seems fairly level from side to side, but not from front to back

 

[cgrutt]

You may actually be able to level floor with the jack posts. At least take up some of the difference. Good luck.

 

[Burt Shaver]

Yeah I'm considering it but it'll be very expensive, and my first year as a homeowner hasn't been positive w.r.t contractors. more often than not, I find them incompetent

You could always try calling a competent licensed true professional, you may be surprised. He will be able to calculate what is needed for this load and may be able to whip this together in an hour or two. Doesn’t hurt to call in someone at least for an estimate. But yea, if your looking for the cheapest hourly rate your bound to get poor results.

 

[orioncyg]

You may actually be able to level floor with the jack posts. At least take up some of the difference. Good luck.

I read that that's not a great idea and you should only extend the jack post such that it's flush with the bottom of the joist and not exert any force on it.

 

[Burt Shaver]

It's this aquarium and frame from the picture https://www.petsmart.com/fish/tanks...pmt7Rgz0J5CqGaTRoC6BMQAvD_BwE&redirected=true

I checked bottom surface of the frame and it's a flat surface. Hm I was planning on just shimming along the front edge (6') in length extending from side to side. It seems fairly level from side to side, but not from front to back

Because you say your floor sags in the middle from the outside I’m just worried that when you shim the 6’ length, the 22.5” length of the cabinet will probably not be sitting flush on the floor anymore, albeit probably only a 1/16” sag over the 22.5” it’s still could compromise the cabinet’s structural integrity. You know how stuff is built today(as cheaply as possible) how much does your floor sag from the exterior wall to let’s say 8’ in?

 

[cgrutt]

I read that that's not a great idea and you should only extend the jack post such that it's flush with the bottom of the joist and not exert any force on it.

I suppose it depends on what's causing issue to begin with. If joist are sagging taking up 1/4" may be ok. If foundation is settling it may be completely different situation you really should have someone come in and see what's going on. I agree you don't want to cause more damage to walls, etc by moving floor where its not supposed to be. Again, good luck with it.

 

[Burt Shaver]

Before you set the aquarium up, have a real good look at the floor joist or joists that will be bearing that weight. Make sure the ends are not rotted, make sure nobody has cut into them for whatever reason in the past. I do wonder why the floors are sagging to befin with, not trying to alarm you, everything could and probably is fine but have a real good look before adding 1400 pounds of weight, and don’t forget there will come a time when possibly 3 adults are standing at that aquarium looking at the fish, so don’t forget that weight as well. You should be able to find information about spans online

 

[firebirdparts]

I would do lolly columns. Send some of the weight down to the basement floor. That's hard to get at, but steel columns are thin at the top and make it a little easier.

 

[orioncyg]

Because you say your floor sags in the middle from the outside I’m just worried that when you shim the 6’ length, the 22.5” length of the cabinet will probably not be sitting flush on the floor anymore, albeit probably only a 1/16” sag over the 22.5” it’s still could compromise the cabinet’s structural integrity. You know how stuff is built today(as cheaply as possible) how much does your floor sag from the exterior wall to let’s say 8’ in?

Oh I see what you mean. You're concerned there would be voids. I'm concerned about that as well. I was actually just now looking at the interface between the bottom of the frame and the floor from one of the sides and the back edge of the frame actually isn't fully flush already. It's about about 1-2 millimeters of give. It's an issue with the frame because my level can sit flush against the floor just fine..

In terms of how it sags 8' out, I don't know. I don't have a level that long. None of my floors in this house are level unfortunately, but I guess this is the norm for old houses?