How to Cope w/ Propane

[avc8130]

I recently purchased a property. There is a 30x50 Morton steel building on site. 9.5' walls with 11.5' center height. Everything is insulated. 6 small double pane windows. 2 large insulated overhead doors and one insulated personnel door.

Currently there is a propane heater mounted to the ceiling. It is supposed to be one of those high-efficiency things. I don't know the BTU or model off the top of my head. Currently there is a tank on premise, it is approximately 3' in diameter and 5' tall. The p/o said this would last ~6 weeks in the dead of winter keeping the shop at 66 degrees day in and day out as he ran a business from there.

I intend to ONLY heat the space when I plan on being in there long enough to justify it (whole evening or whole day).

I am trying to determine how to deal with propane. I am in NJ and I am limited on my propane options.

1. Propane company delivery:
This is the current tank on premise. I have not contracted with them so it is locked. They charge $85 tank rental and yearly minimum of 1 tank. I have been told they lure you in with an awesome initial rate and then rake you over the coals from there.

2. 100lb tanks and do it myself:
I can buy the tank for ~$100 and apparently they are good for 10 years before re-cert. There is a refill place ~10 minutes away.

Thoughts/concerns/opinions?
ac

 

[Dragster Racer]

Check with different propane dealers. That rent is high, and you only need like a 250 at the most. Shop around for prices of fuel too. There is usually more than one dealer in the area.

 

[oldgoaly]

if you have a farm co-op nearby, they generally are cheaper than a oil company own dealer. They don't give it away!

 

[MattT]

If it's a 500 gal tank the previous owner was using ~10 gallons a day. A 100# tank will last 2 to 3 days at that rate. Also I'm not sure whether a cold small tank will be able to handle the draw of that large a heater especially when you first fire it up where it's running continuously for a while bringing the shop up to temperature.

What I'd probably do in your situation is get the propane company to fill the tank now before propane gets any higher then start looking for a used tank for a long term solution. Once you get your own tank there's no rent plus you can shop propane suppliers.

 

[djjsr]

Can you handle a full 100 lb. tank? Loading and unloading from a truck ain't easy.

 

[A_Pmech]

You're going to get REALLY tired of hauling gas every few days and as someone mentioned, a single 100lb cylinder will not support your heater. It will take a manifold of several cylinders to provide enough vaporization capacity to run the heater when the temperature drops.

Shop around and see if you can find another gas company. Out here in the rural midwest I'm 20 miles from the nearest town and I can shop between at least 10 different suppliers that I'm aware of. Most all will set a tank for free and charge a modest yearly rental if you don't use at least one tank full of gas.

 

[787B]

1. Propane company delivery:
This is the current tank on premise. I have not contracted with them so it is locked. They charge $85 tank rental and yearly minimum of 1 tank. I have been told they lure you in with an awesome initial rate and then rake you over the coals from there.

Unfortunately this is absolutely true. I own my two 100 gallon tanks and just caught Suburban Propane, my current supplier, trying to screw me for $3.99 a gallon! The going rate is $2.20 to $2.80 a gallon. Called them up and they basically said "Oh sorry, we'll refund the difference and give you the lower rate in the future because you complained." Trust dwindles. They are going to get the boot for Amerigas for $2.20/gallon once I burn through the 200 gallons I just got.

Buy a tank. The tank on your property is a 100 gallon tank. You can find 100 gallon tanks with current inspection (good for longer on tanks than cylinders) on craigslist for a few hundred bucks. Then you can keep the bastards honest by shopping them and not be tied to minimums or contracts. Especially true since running out won't be dire like it would be if it was your house, and a tank may last you a full year or more. Delivery is better than jackassing tanks around too, IMHO.

 

[A_Pmech]

Unfortunately this is absolutely true. I own my two 100 gallon tanks and just caught Suburban Propane, my current supplier, trying to screw me for $3.99 a gallon!

Must be an east coast thing...

If a midwest propane supplier did that they wouldn't last more than a week. Everybody and their brother is hauling propane in my neck of the woods. There are guys with 500 gallon tanks in the back of 1-ton trucks and calling themselves delivery companies.

 

[avc8130]

Unfortunately this is absolutely true. I own my two 100 gallon tanks and just caught Suburban Propane, my current supplier, trying to screw me for $3.99 a gallon! The going rate is $2.20 to $2.80 a gallon. Called them up and they basically said "Oh sorry, we'll refund the difference and give you the lower rate in the future because you complained." Trust dwindles. They are going to get the boot for Amerigas for $2.20/gallon once I burn through the 200 gallons I just got.

Buy a tank. The tank on your property is a 100 gallon tank. You can find 100 gallon tanks with current on craigslist for under 200 bucks. Then you can keep the bastards honest by shopping them and not be tied to minimums or contracts. Especially true since running out won't be dire like it would be if it was your house, and a tank may last you a full year or more. Delivery is better than jackassing tanks around too, IMHO.

Suburban is the name on the side of the tank. They have quite a reputation for this **** in my area.

I guess I need to make a list and start calling around.

I hate the cloud of secrecy since no one is straight out honest and POSTS their rates/prices.
ac

 

[klammer76]

Unfortunately this is absolutely true. I own my two 100 gallon tanks and just caught Suburban Propane, my current supplier, trying to screw me for $3.99 a gallon! The going rate is $2.20 to $2.80 a gallon. Called them up and they basically said "Oh sorry, we'll refund the difference and give you the lower rate in the future because you complained." Trust dwindles. They are going to get the boot for Amerigas for $2.20/gallon once I burn through the 200 gallons I just got.

Buy a tank. The tank on your property is a 100 gallon tank. You can find 100 gallon tanks with current inspection (good for longer on tanks than cylinders) on craigslist for a few hundred bucks. Then you can keep the bastards honest by shopping them and not be tied to minimums or contracts. Especially true since running out won't be dire like it would be if it was your house, and a tank may last you a full year or more. Delivery is better than jackassing tanks around too, IMHO.

I got rid of Suburban Propane years ago. They were the worst company I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. Quite a reputation here in central/northern NY.

 

[ThreeBay]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Suburban Propane in NJ is the worst of the worst. I use propane for hot water and cooking. Last winter SP was charging 2X the "govt" average price in NJ. In the past we used to call them and they would lower the price ... last winter they said "that's the price take it or leave it".
I am in central NJ and we don't have many propane "options" and the ones we do have are within pennies of each other. I do think $ are a bit better in the more rural portions of the state.
My house is too far from the road to make natural gas piping affordable so I'm still looking for alternatives.
Let us know if you come up with a good solution.

 

[avc8130]

Just got off the phone

Suburban:
3 year "agreement"
$1.899 "introductory rate"
After that "fluctuates with market", she claimed currently $2.279 RIGHT NOW
$10 annual tank rental
$60 minimum per season (Nov-Apr)
3-year agreement, $150 termination fee
"3-year discount rate"

Amerigas:
3 year agreement
$1.99 1st fill, $35 coupon for 1st fill
After that market value, $2.59 currently
$100 coupon for 2nd fill
$98 termination fee
2 options for dealing with tank:
Single tank is $98/year rental with 1st year waived
Dual tank is 100 gallon minimum use/year w/ no rental fee

Thoughts?
ac

 

[D.J.]

What size tank are they quoting you, the 100 gallon or the 100#? As per post #12, above. Sounds High to me!
________
Lovely Wendie

 

[avc8130]

What size tank are they quoting you, the 100 gallon or the 100#? As per post #12, above. Sounds High to me!

100 GALLON. 100# will not condense enough to support my heater.
ac

 

[Boiler]

What do you have in the shop? You may want to consider keeping it heated all winter long. Going from 15 degrees to 60 degrees and back, over and over, is a surefire way to get lots of condensation all over everything metal. Which of course means rust. I sold my brother in law my table saw when I moved into a dinky space and like a week later he is calling me about his rust problem. I go over there, he pops on the head, we BS and look around and I'm wondering wtf...

Not long and everything in the shop starts getting wet due to the metal remaining ice cold and the air getting warm.

I think if you even would heat it to 40 or 50 degrees and bump it up when in use, that would help.

 

[avc8130]

Just called a few more:
Yankee Propane:
$3.499 introductory rate
3.599 current mkt rate
Tank rental $6 / month
Term fee $50
Installation $79 for first hour, $89 if goes over
3 year contract

Fairclough:
$3.99 rate regardless
1 year agreement
no termination fee
$80 / year non-refundable rental

It is looking like Amerigas is the "best" I guess.
ac

 

[A_Pmech]

Jesus! That's nutz!

I sign a contract every year which limits the price I pay to X.** amount or less. The contract allows them to work out a deal with their bulk supplier. When I sign the contract, I agree to buy *** gallons of gas at X.** price. Should I not burn that much gas, it rolls over to my next fill, even if it is outside of the contract window. This year the contract was for $1.75 per gallon or less.

They supply the tank free of charge and install it free of charge. If I use less than one tank of gas a year, they charge me a $35 rental fee, but never charge an installation fee and there's no contract besides a 6 sentence slip of paper that says "This is our tank, don't have somebody else fill it or we'll take it away."

The first tank they installed developed a leak due to an oxide inclusion in the weld. They came out the next day, pumped it out, swapped tanks, installed new regulators and charged me $0.00. Normally, I would buy the equipment. But if it was MY tank, I would have been paying for a repair or a new tank.

"We make money on the gas we sell, not the tanks" is what they say.

 

[avc8130]

Jesus! That's nutz!

I sign a contract every year which limits the price I pay to X.** amount or less. The contract allows them to work out a deal with their bulk supplier. When I sign the contract, I agree to buy *** gallons of gas at X.** price. Should I not burn that much gas, it rolls over to my next fill, even if it is outside of the contract window. This year the contract was for $1.75 per gallon or less.

They supply the tank free of charge and install it free of charge. If I use less than one tank of gas a year, they charge me a $35 rental fee, but never charge an installation fee and there's no contract besides a 6 sentence slip of paper that says "This is our tank, don't have somebody else fill it or we'll take it away."

The first tank they installed developed a leak due to an oxide inclusion in the weld. They came out the next day, pumped it out, swapped tanks, installed new regulators and charged me $0.00. Normally, I would buy the equipment. But if it was MY tank, I would have been paying for a repair or a new tank.

"We make money on the gas we sell, not the tanks" is what they say.

Amerigas also offers this. I am past that point as they do that in July and I have no clue what my usage will be either.
ac

 

[avc8130]

What do you have in the shop? You may want to consider keeping it heated all winter long. Going from 15 degrees to 60 degrees and back, over and over, is a surefire way to get lots of condensation all over everything metal. Which of course means rust. I sold my brother in law my table saw when I moved into a dinky space and like a week later he is calling me about his rust problem. I go over there, he pops on the head, we BS and look around and I'm wondering wtf...

Not long and everything in the shop starts getting wet due to the metal remaining ice cold and the air getting warm.

I think if you even would heat it to 40 or 50 degrees and bump it up when in use, that would help.

Any idea what temperature spread is reasonable? I doubt I will ever heat above 50-55 or so. I don't need to wrench in my undies, but I would like to be able to wrench wearing a hoodie and no gloves.
ac

 

[avc8130]

Dixon:
$2.65 introductory rate
$3.15 rate
No installation charge
No contract
Tank rental $39/year - first year free

ac

 

[BirdRacer]

Can the heater be converted to Natural Gas?

 

[avc8130]

Can the heater be converted to Natural Gas?

Sure, but it is going to be REALLY hard to run it at my garage with the closest NG being 20+ miles away

ac

 

[csp]

Every one of those contracts is for a rental tank and keeping it full. F-that.

Buy your own tank, call around to whomever has the best price and have them deliver and fill the tank. Screw their contracts and lack of competition when you sign one.

My home is heated with propane and we own our 1,000 gallon tank. It's filled once a year when the price is at it's lowest (typically early fall). I paid around $1.40 a gallon several weeks ago. Granted propane is much cheaper here than in the midwest and east coast.

 

[avc8130]

Every one of those contracts is for a rental tank and keeping it full. F-that.

Buy your own tank, call around to whomever has the best price and have them deliver and fill the tank. Screw their contracts and lack of competition when you sign one.

My home is heated with propane and we own our 1,000 gallon tank. It's filled once a year when the price is at it's lowest (typically early fall). I paid around $1.40 a gallon several weeks ago. Granted propane is much cheaper here than in the midwest and east coast.

They are not for "keeping it full" as they are not auto-delivery prices. These prices are based on me watching level. I realize I cannot let it run out.

I am having trouble finding out how much a 100 GALLON tank costs and where to buy one in NJ. I am also having trouble determining if they are good forever. Apparently my homeowners insurance may be "interested" if I own my own tank too.

ac

 

[csp]

What I meant by "keeping it full" is they are the only ones who can fill it. I bought my tank from a propane supplier, but I've used someone else since the initial fill ran out. We paid $1800 for 1,000 gal tank, which should be good for 20+ years.

 

[Mattlt]

Some places will stop in and top off your tank once per month (Keep Fill). They usually charge about .10 less per gallon when they do this, that way they don't have to make an extra trip out to your place when you notice the tank is getting empty. With this program, they can make a route out of all their customers. Eliminates some of the trips they have to make. I've done this for years. (Well, until the last couple of years since I got an outdoor wood boiler!)

I deal with an ag coop. They also have a "summer fill" program, where they will top off your tank before they get busy supplying gas for crop drying. Again, usually at a discount.

I can also contract fuel at a set price each fall. This is typically cheaper than being at the mercy of the cash price. The first year I didn't contract a price, and my cost doubled between Sept and Jan. The next year I locked in so many gallons at the set price and was much happier.

 

[avc8130]

Some places will stop in and top off your tank once per month (Keep Fill). They usually charge about .10 less per gallon when they do this, that way they don't have to make an extra trip out to your place when you notice the tank is getting empty. With this program, they can make a route out of all their customers. Eliminates some of the trips they have to make. I've done this for years. (Well, until the last couple of years since I got an outdoor wood boiler!)

I deal with an ag coop. They also have a "summer fill" program, where they will top off your tank before they get busy supplying gas for crop drying. Again, usually at a discount.

I can also contract fuel at a set price each fall. This is typically cheaper than being at the mercy of the cash price. The first year I didn't contract a price, and my cost doubled between Sept and Jan. The next year I locked in so many gallons at the set price and was much happier.

I think most of these companies have delivery fees for HAZMAT and other NJ socialist taxes that apply to EACH delivery. I don't need them coming out 12x per year at $9.50 each time in NJ fees when I will probably only get 1 or 2 tanks/year.

Amerigas offers a "lock in" where you can buy your yearly quantity in July at a fixed rate. It is legit as they as a company make a bulk buy in July based on these lock-ins.
ac

 

[gophergrove]

Yes, there will be fees with each delivery (either itemized or builit into your base rate). I'd suggest buying a larger tank say 250 gal or even 500 gal and filling it once every couple of years at the best price possible. Like CSP we have a 1000 gal tank and fill once per year - this past Sept at $1.47/gal. I know our supplier charges less per gallon with larger minimum fills - the minimum delivery for our tank is 300 gal so we are getting a better rate than if I was filling a 100 gal tank. Propane will not go bad over a couple of years so spread the fees over multiple years and don't rent a tank. And make sure you keep the bill of sale, when you contract with a new supplier they will ask for proof of ownership so they know they are not stepping on someone's rental - it also helps when/if you sell to give to the new owner.

 

[avc8130]

Yes, there will be fees with each delivery (either itemized or builit into your base rate). I'd suggest buying a larger tank say 250 gal or even 500 gal and filling it once every couple of years at the best price possible. Like CSP we have a 1000 gal tank and fill once per year - this past Sept at $1.47/gal. I know our supplier charges less per gallon with larger minimum fills - the minimum delivery for our tank is 300 gal so we are getting a better rate than if I was filling a 100 gal tank. Propane will not go bad over a couple of years so spread the fees over multiple years and don't rent a tank. And make sure you keep the bill of sale, when you contract with a new supplier they will ask for proof of ownership so they know they are not stepping on someone's rental - it also helps when/if you sell to give to the new owner.

I don't think I can go over 100 gallons due to proximity to the structure/property line.

I like this idea. Tomorrow I will be calling and asking what the price is to fill MY tank.

Suburban and Amerigas did not seem interested in this. They both warned that my home owner's insurance would be concerned. I guess I need to call them too.
ac

 

[787B]

I don't think I can go over 100 gallons due to proximity to the structure/property line.

I have two 100 gallon tanks right up against my house. In little town centers around me I see 100 gal tanks stuffed in-between houses with barely room to walk between the houses.

I like this idea. Tomorrow I will be calling and asking what the price is to fill MY tank. Suburban and Amerigas did not seem interested in this. They both warned that my home owner's insurance would be concerned. I guess I need to call them too.

They are both playing dirty pool. I told Suburban and Amerigas I own my tanks and they didn't tell me anything like that. I suspect they are being less than honest to discourage you from buying a tank. How does ownership of the tank make it any more or less dangerous? When you own it, they can't lock you into their propane. Call you insurance agent and they will probably tell you it's a lie. Dirty, dirty pool.

Some places will stop in and top off your tank once per month (Keep Fill). They usually charge about .10 less per gallon when they do this, that way they don't have to make an extra trip out to your place when you notice the tank is getting empty.

Ooh! I didn't know about that. One more thing to ask about when I call for prices again. I love GJ! I learn so much!

I am having trouble finding out how much a 100 GALLON tank costs and where to buy one in NJ. I am also having trouble determining if they are good forever.

My 100 gallon tanks have a most-recent retest date of 11-1985! I think that is when they were purchased used from Suburban for $200 each with plumbing and regulators. I can't find any tags or stamps on them as to when they were actually made.

You can buy tanks from the propane suppliers or get one off Craigslist. I see several near me for $175-200. Propane suppliers will move and install them for you for reasonable rates if you agree to let them fill them.

100 GALLON. 100# will not condense enough to support my heater.

...Will not vaporize enough...

Just got off the phone
Suburban:
3 year "agreement"
[...]
Amerigas:
3 year agreement

What are the "agreements"? Don't sign any agreement unless it's a one-Winter price-lock. Those contracts sound like as big a scam as cellphone contracts.

 

[tdkkart]

Just called a few more:
Yankee Propane:
$3.499 introductory rate
3.599 current mkt rate
Tank rental $6 / month
Term fee $50
Installation $79 for first hour, $89 if goes over
3 year contract

Fairclough:
$3.99 rate regardless
1 year agreement
no termination fee
$80 / year non-refundable rental

It is looking like Amerigas is the "best" I guess.
ac

Holy **** you guys are getting screwed.
One of the guys I work with just bought his winter fill for $1.52/gallon

 

[avc8130]

I just spoke to an HVAC guy I know who has been doing this stuff for a LONG time. He said "f the propane companies". He advised me to go buy 2 100# tanks and a regulator. Link them together and handle the whole operation myself. Propane is not very common in NJ. Most areas have NG and whatever doesn't is mostly oil. There was a movement to propane a number of years ago but I think these shenanigans from the propane companies have pissed most people off enough to switch fuel sources.
ac

 

[avc8130]

I have two 100 gallon tanks right up against my house. In little town centers around me I see 100 gal tanks stuffed in-between houses with barely room to walk between the houses.


They are both playing dirty pool. I told Suburban and Amerigas I own my tanks and they didn't tell me anything like that. I suspect they are being less than honest to discourage you from buying a tank. How does ownership of the tank make it any more or less dangerous? When you own it, they can't lock you into their propane. Call you insurance agent and they will probably tell you it's a lie. Dirty, dirty pool.


Ooh! I didn't know about that. One more thing to ask about when I call for prices again. I love GJ! I learn so much!


My 100 gallon tanks have a most-recent retest date of 11-1985! I think that is when they were purchased used from Suburban for $200 each with plumbing and regulators. I can't find any tags or stamps on them as to when they were actually made.

You can buy tanks from the propane suppliers or get one off Craigslist. I see several near me for $175-200. Propane suppliers will move and install them for you for reasonable rates if you agree to let them fill them.


...Will not vaporize enough...


What are the "agreements"? Don't sign any agreement unless it's a one-Winter price-lock. Those contracts sound like as big a scam as cellphone contracts.

I thought I had read that 100 gallon was the largest size tank that could be within 30' of a structure. Maybe you can have multiple 100 gallons, but not a single larger? I have seen weirder codes.

Both of these companies are famous in my area for "dirty pool". I don't want to deal with them. I would rather be cold in my garage.

I think the reinspect only comes into play when it is DOT for transport. Storage I think is more lax.

I guess I need to call the propane suppliers. There is a brand new tank on craigslist in the area for $800, but that seems to be a lot to me. I don't see anything used near me.

Vapoohrize?

The agreements ARE scams. Super low rates to start and I am sure they get their money back in the long run.

ac

 

[Garys Garage]

I am south of Chicago and heat my 30x50 shop and my 28x32 house off a 1000 gallon tank. In the past I would have to fill it 3 times a year for cost of roughly 6000. I pay no rent or charges other than when they set the tank 15 feet from my shop for the cost of the copper tube. Last year I dropped a ceiling in my shop and blew in 18 in of insulation and hope to drop to two fills a year. I think we are around 2.50 now. They wanted to put me on a monthly bill of 700 a month? 700x 12 is 8400 a year? LOL I told them. No I will just pay when you drop. Hoping to be t 400 this year. I heat with a boiler and tubing in the floor. Beautiful to work in.

 

[gophergrove]

I thought I had read that 100 gallon was the largest size tank that could be within 30' of a structure. Maybe you can have multiple 100 gallons, but not a single larger? I have seen weirder codes.

Here is a link for general rules to tank placement - you'll still need to check with your locality. According to these you can have a 100gal tank right next to the bldg as long as it is 5' from a window and 10' from an intake. While a 500gal tank just needs to be 10' from the bldg.

http://www.propane101.com/images/propane-tank-distances.gif

 

[gophergrove]

Oops that link doesn't work outside of their site. Try this one and click on the first image to enlarge.

http://www.propane101.com/propanetankdistancerules.htm

 

[D.J.]

Here is a link for general rules to tank placement - you'll still need to check with your locality. According to these you can have a 100gal tank right next to the bldg as long as it is 5' from a window and 10' from an intake. While a 500gal tank just needs to be 10' from the bldg.

http://www.propane101.com/images/propane-tank-distances.gif

You are partialy right any tank larger than 100 gallons they have to be minimum of 10' from structure and property lines according to Phamplet 58! (National Fuel Gas Code)
________
Wellbutrin Lawsuits

 

[avc8130]

You are partialy right any tank larger than 100 gallons they have to be minimum of 10' from structure and property lines according to Phamplet 58! (National Fuel Gas Code)

There we go. I have 23 feet to the property line so if the tank is less than 3' wide...LOL.
ac

 

[nutjob]

Heres some specs on tanks and info on DOT vs AMSE tanks.

I have a 120 gallon tank and call my propane company when it gets to 30%.
Right now they own the tank and no fees if I get more than 300 gallons a year. BUT, they are the only ones that can fill it.

I am looking into purchasing a tank and calling around for best price when it needs filling. Since each fill up is about 85 gallons I am not going to get a great deal. The tank only gets filled up to 100 gallons, needs room for expansion.

No way I can put in a larger tank. The people with the 500-1000 gallons have the best way to get the best price in the summer time.

 

[787B]

Here is a link for general rules to tank placement - you'll still need to check with your locality. According to these you can have a 100gal tank right next to the bldg as long as it is 5' from a window and 10' from an intake.

Ha! My tanks are five feet from a window, but only 1 foot from a door!
Propane companies have never said a word.

I have a 120 gallon tank and call my propane company when it gets to 30%.

Wish I could do that. No gauges on my tanks. I'm trying to see if I can determine liquid level using an IR thermometer after the heater has been running for ten minutes or so...