How to replace this sub-panel.

[RegeSullivan]

The wiring in this garage has been chewed by rodents so I will replace/rewire this fall with emt conduit or mc. Likely 3 or 4 20 amp circuits. The garage was built in the last 10 years so I can't explain the 50s vintage fuse box fed by the 8-2 wire. There are no ground rods for this building. There is no possibility of replacing the 8ga wire feeding the fuse box until 2025-2026 at which time I will run a 60 or 100 amp line from what will be a new main-panel. I'm thinking about installing a new sub-panel off the existing 30 sub-panel.

Is this a reasonable plan and if so how would I connect the new sub to the old and would you seperate the nutural and ground in the new panel? Any better ideas?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yikes

Does this run underground? You mentioned no ground rods so i assume so. If so that SER is no bueno…

Also running neutral current on a bare conductor is a big no no especially underground. Wouldnt have been code permissive even 10yrs ago to do so.

Unfortunately, that should be ripped out and replaced. Also changing out the sub means you need to bring it up to current code.

 

[FredWanaker]

thread would be better titled, "Found at a garage sale" and the first line, "what do you folks think of how the builder repurposed this panel?"

 

[RegeSullivan]

I fully understand nothing here is code compliant. I'm looking for the best solution for the current circumstance. That circumstance being the 8 ga feed can not be replaced at this time. If that is just leave it as is then we'll continue to tape up the places we find chewed through and leave it as is. Or... with the future upgrade to a 60 or 100 feed what is the best corse of action today.

 

[RegeSullivan]

thread would be better titled, "Found at a garage sale" and the first line, "what do you folks think of how the builder repurposed this panel?"

I'm guessing but it seems likely it was from the old garage as the house is about 1955 and slab in the garage is much older than the current garage.

 

[nadogail]

You can buy liquid electrical tape in a can, it comes with an applicator brush in the cap. That may get you by until you can schedule the replacement of the panel and the feeders.

What you don't do is tell the Inspector who repaired the old wiring; they probably won't care; their job is to inspect and approve the new work.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I fully understand nothing here is code compliant. I'm looking for the best solution for the current circumstance. That circumstance being the 8 ga feed can not be replaced at this time. If that is just leave it as is then we'll continue to tape up the places we find chewed through and leave it as is. Or... with the future upgrade to a 60 or 100 feed what is the best corse of action today.

what you need to understand is that the bare neutral created a serious potential for danger. It needs to be replaced now

 

[theoldwizard1]

I fully understand nothing here is code compliant. I'm looking for the best solution for the current circumstance. That circumstance being the 8 ga feed can not be replaced at this time. If that is just leave it as is then we'll continue to tape up the places we find chewed through and leave it as is. Or... with the future upgrade to a 60 or 100 feed what is the best corse of action today.

Do it right (new 4 wire feed) or don't do it at all !

 

[Metal-Marc]

Also running neutral current on a bare conductor is a big no no especially underground.

what you need to understand is that the bare neutral created a serious potential for danger.

Honest question: what problem or potential problem does it create?

 

[RegeSullivan]

You can buy liquid electrical tape in a can, it comes with an applicator brush in the cap. That may get you by until you can schedule the replacement of the panel and the feeders.

What you don't do is tell the Inspector who repaired the old wiring; they probably won't care; their job is to inspect and approve the new work.

 

[billconner]

You say you can't correct it for a year or so, but what would you do if code enforcement required it be disconnected?

It appears to be a serious hazard and should be remedied immediately. We're trying to help, and not just spend your money.

 

[KenC]

I'm not gonna try to find this in the code, but could one convert to a 3 wire NO 240 service? Use the bare for ground and one of the insulated conductors as neutral? With white remarking of course. This assumes no 240 need as the OP states the new panel will be 20A loads only. Still leaves the cable type as an issue but at least no live bare wires as he has now.

 

[RegeSullivan]

Thank you the replies. For now I'll run new circuits with mc and leave them disconnected until we can run proper wire underground from house to garage. To me, it seems "less safe" continuing to use the old romex than temporarily using the existing feed.

Sincere question, I'm sure this was code compliment when the house and original garage was built. How was it safe back then but so extremely dangerous today?

 

[RegeSullivan]

You say you can't correct it for a year or so, but what would you do if code enforcement required it be disconnected?

It appears to be a serious hazard and should be remedied immediately. We're trying to help, and not just spend your money.

This place is pretty remote. I would be shocked (pardon the pun) if there was any attempt at code enforcement with the exception of septic systems. This is on a lake with a dam and the Feds and State officials are particular about anything that might effect the water or shore line. As far as an AHJ I'm not sure one exists locally. There is not much of a local government here since the local logging industry disappeared in the early 60s. When the well was replaced we asked if it would be inspected. They laughed and said if you can get someone to inspect I'd be happy to meet him here.

 

[KenC]

Thank you the replies. For now I'll run new circuits with mc and leave them disconnected until we can run proper wire underground from house to garage. To me, it seems "less safe" continuing to use the old romex than temporarily using the existing feed.

Sincere question, I'm sure this was code compliment when the house and original garage was built. How was it safe back then but so extremely dangerous today?

I don't believe it was ever code compliant with no insulated neutral. Some people don't realize that when a circuit is complete, like when a light is on, that the neutral is hot. Touching it while grounded is really bad for your health!

 

[Metal-Marc]

Some people don't realize that when a circuit is complete, like when a light is on, that the neutral is hot. Touching it while grounded is really bad for your health!

Hot here is a euphemism. Define hot.

 

[billconner]

BTW, lower right double tapped fuse looks like a 220 circuit - white to right and black to left; or multi wire using bare ground as neutral, sort of a theme in this panel.

And do we know if feed and bare neutral is underground or aerial?

 

[Bert_]

what you need to understand is that the bare neutral created a serious potential for danger. It needs to be replaced now

It's se cable... If it's a separate building that would have been a perfectly acceptable wire to enter the building with a few code cycles ago

Other than the 3 vs 4 wire issue and some missing KO's the panel isn't that bad

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's se cable... If it's a separate building that would have been a perfectly acceptable wire to enter the building with a few code cycles ago

Other than the 3 vs 4 wire issue and some missing KO's the panel isn't that bad

running neutral current on a bare/non-insulated conductor past the main service panel has never been allowed. and this is in a detached building. just like it was never allowed to use bare/non-insulated neutral 3-wire SE for dryer and stove circuits. the proper wire had 3 insulated conductors.

also OP stated this was built 10yrs ago. 3-wire feeders were not allowed as of 2008. its possible his AHJ was still on pre-2008 however the bare/uninsulated neutral is still the issue.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not gonna try to find this in the code, but could one convert to a 3 wire NO 240 service? Use the bare for ground and one of the insulated conductors as neutral? With white remarking of course. This assumes no 240 need as the OP states the new panel will be 20A loads only. Still leaves the cable type as an issue but at least no live bare wires as he has now.

or they could do 240v only feeder and setup a separately derived system with a step down transformer for 120v. will need to add ground rods.

 

[RegeSullivan]

BTW, lower right double tapped fuse looks like a 220 circuit - white to right and black to left; or multi wire using bare ground as neutral, sort of a theme in this panel.

And do we know if feed and bare neutral is underground or aerial?

The 220 circuit is no longer in use. It was for the old pump house. That panel is fed from an under ground wire in conduit.

 

[RegeSullivan]

I don't believe it was ever code compliant with no insulated neutral. Some people don't realize that when a circuit is complete, like when a light is on, that the neutral is hot. Touching it while grounded is really bad for your health!

I understand that. I also understand that in a main panel the nutural and ground are bonded so why is that o different?

 

[FredWanaker]

I understand that. I also understand that in a main panel the nutural and ground are bonded so why is that o different?

the eletrons will choose the shortest path. If you are the shorter path you will get shocked. Electons will share a path back as well, meaning if they have an option of 2 paths they will take both. If you are one of those paths, you will get shocked.

 

[KenC]

I understand that. I also understand that in a main panel the nutural and ground are bonded so why is that o different?

At the main there is a safety ground path from point of use circuits fed from the panel to that ground. That doesn't exist in your present config. In that config the only path is a bare wire serving to carry live current, no safety path

 

[Bert_]

running neutral current on a bare/non-insulated conductor past the main service panel has never been allowed. and this is in a detached building. just like it was never allowed to use bare/non-insulated neutral 3-wire SE for dryer and stove circuits. the proper wire had 3 insulated conductors.

also OP stated this was built 10yrs ago. 3-wire feeders were not allowed as of 2008. its possible his AHJ was still on pre-2008 however the bare/uninsulated neutral is still the issue.

You have a reference for that? I recall the uninsulated neutral conductor in SE cable being allowed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I understand that. I also understand that in a main panel the neutural and ground are bonded so why is that o different?

all subpanels are required to have isolated neutral so that neutral return current doesnt flow on unintended pathways such as grounded metal objects conduit etc

 

[Wrench97]

Is this 20 amp double tap 14ga?
It also needs to be identified correctly

 

[billconner]

The op says not used. So first thing disconnect unused circuits.

 

[RegeSullivan]

You have a reference for that? I recall the uninsulated neutral conductor in SE cable being allowed.

I don't know for sure but I suspect the feed and panel was from the original 1955ish garage that was taken down and the new garage was built on the old slab and kept the panel and feed intact.

 

[Bert_]

running neutral current on a bare/non-insulated conductor past the main service panel has never been allowed. and this is in a detached building. just like it was never allowed to use bare/non-insulated neutral 3-wire SE for dryer and stove circuits. the proper wire had 3 insulated conductors.

also OP stated this was built 10yrs ago. 3-wire feeders were not allowed as of 2008. its possible his AHJ was still on pre-2008 however the bare/uninsulated neutral is still the issue.

250.140 exception (3) clearly states a bare neutral that is part of se cable was allowed for dryer and stove circuits. I need to dig around to see if I still have a 2005 code book

 

[wyliesdiesels]

250.140 exception (3) clearly states a bare neutral that is part of se cable was allowed for dryer and stove circuits. I need to dig around to see if I still have a 2005 code book

I was thinking of NM but that exception only works if the circuit originates from the main service panel which you failed to mention. and that doesnt apply to subpanels...

 

[Bert_]

I was thinking of NM but that exception only works if the circuit originates from the main service panel which you failed to mention. and that doesnt apply to subpanels...

What makes you think this feeder originates from a subpanel?

 

[dave*99]

the eletrons will choose the shortest path. If you are the shorter path you will get shocked. Electons will share a path back as well, meaning if they have an option of 2 paths they will take both. If you are one of those paths, you will get shocked.

The electrons will choose ALL paths inversely proportional to impedance. On the way there and on the way back.....

 

[dave*99]

I understand that. I also understand that in a main panel the nutural and ground are bonded so why is that o different?

They are bonded in the main. Correct.

After that bond, the neutral and ground are now separate systems.
Neutral will carry current and a resulting voltage drop across its length. Neutral stays separate and insulated after the main panel.
Grounding conductor will not carry current UNLESS THERE IS A FAULT. Normally there is no voltage on the grounding conductor.

If you bury an UNIINSULATED neutral in the earth, the voltage drop across the neutral can energize the soil and create a shock hazard.

 

[yatg]

Is the black (irrigation?) pipe in the lower right your feed conduit, and does it go back to the main panel?

Can you pull the SE cable out of it and refeed THWN?
Wouldn't be proper, but would be better for now.

 

[rancherbill]

1) I'd fix the rodent damaged wires.
2) put the cover back on.
3) plan, source and get permits for the replacement.
4) change it out as you had said you were going to do.

I do not believe the statement that it's 10 years old.

 

[RegeSullivan]

Is the black (irrigation?) pipe in the lower right your feed conduit, and does it go back to the main panel?

Can you pull the SE cable out of it and refeed THWN?
Wouldn't be proper, but would be better for now.

I can't at this time. It is not accessible because of a project underway in the basement of the house. Once we have access I'll run 2" pvc and likely THWN between the buildings.

 

[alfredeneuman]

250.140 exception (3) clearly states a bare neutral that is part of se cable was allowed for dryer and stove circuits. I need to dig around to see if I still have a 2005 code book

For existing circuits only>>>

(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment

 

[RegeSullivan]

1) I'd fix the rodent damaged wires.
2) put the cover back on.
3) plan, source and get permits for the replacement.
4) change it out as you had said you were going to do.

I do not believe the statement that it's 10 years old.

That is the plan for now with the exception that I will wire the garage so it is ready for the new panel. We'll continue to use the existing wiring for now. Your choice to beleive the age of the building or not but what incentive would I have to deceive you. The original owners were pretty honest about the condition of the place. Said tree fell on the old garage and the had Amish builder rebuild it.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Said tree fell on the old garage and the had Amish builder rebuild it.

Amish pretty much shun electricity so you can't expect them to know about electrical Codes