How would you wire this?

[trainer]

I'm going to rewire a small cabin this spring. It's off the grid, powered by a 3000 watt 120v generator.
The generator is neutral bonded and has a 30amp rv type outlet on a 25 amp circuit breaker.

Generator will be installed in an enclosure approximately 75' away from the main camp with a buried cable.

Panel will be a 4 circuit pony panel using one 25a breaker as the main and feeding three 15a circuits.

first question..Grounding Should I have a ground rod at the generator, the point of entry to the cabin or both?

2. any issues with using two paralell runs of 14/2 direct burial wire instead of one run of #10? I already have the #14

3 any special things that need to be done because the generator has a bonded neutral rather than a floating one?

 

[nehog]

1. If the generator is bonded, then the rod is at that end, and the generator's frame must be securely and permanently connected to the ground.

2. No, do not do that. Parallel feeds are going to be problematic.

3. Ground the generator's frame, permanently, to ground. Not a clip, but something that is bolted and won't come loose with vibration.

 

[trainer]

2. No, do not do that. Parallel feeds are going to be problematic.

.

Can you elaborate on why it would be a problem? Maybe there's something i could do to avoid a particular issue.

 

[pattenp]

I'm not sure if I understand what you are asking. Are you asking if you can run the two cables of 14/2 connected to one plug for the generator end and connected to the breaker in the panel? In effect trying to make the two 14/2 cables to act as one cable? If that's the case then no, that's just not safe because combining the two 14/2 cables do not make a 30A amp capacity cable.

I'm going to rewire a small cabin this spring. It's off the grid, powered by a 3000 watt 120v generator.
The generator is neutral bonded and has a 30amp rv type outlet on a 25 amp circuit breaker.

Generator will be installed in an enclosure approximately 75' away from the main camp with a buried cable.

Panel will be a 4 circuit pony panel using one 25a breaker as the main and feeding three 15a circuits.

first question..Grounding Should I have a ground rod at the generator, the point of entry to the cabin or both?

2. any issues with using two paralell runs of 14/2 direct burial wire instead of one run of #10? I already have the #14

3 any special things that need to be done because the generator has a bonded neutral rather than a floating one?

 

[Stuart in MN]

The simple answer is two #14 wires in parallel is not allowed by the National Electric Code, but the reason behind it is if one of the wires broke or had a loose connection you could overload the other wire, causing a fire hazard.

There is a provision that allows #1/0 wires and larger to be run in parallel, but it rarely comes into play for any residential wiring. This is partly for ease of installation, and partly for really high ampacity circuits where you just can't get a single wire that's large enough.

 

[aandpdan]

Can you elaborate on why it would be a problem? Maybe there's something i could do to avoid a particular issue.

I know you're off grid but it's against Code. NEC 310.4. The wire would have to be 1/0 or larger but also you'd be limited to 15 amps, since 310.4 (c) requires: "The overcurrent protection is such that the ampacity of each individual conductor will not be exceeded if one or more of the parallel conductors become inadvertently disconnected."

The problem is that it's not DC and that the waveform is constantly changing. You need to have the lengths exact or you run into problems with the harmonics.

Buy the heavier wire.

 

[Alchymist]

Run the two #14's - but put a panel at the generator with 2 - 15 amp breakers and breaker each run separately. At the other end, keep them separate and split the loads evenly on the two circuits.

 

[trainer]

Thanks for the replies.
I think i'll run a 10/3 so that I'lll have the ability to run a 240/120 feed if I ever get a generator that has that output.

 

[Provincial]

Bury a piece of 1" or better yet, 1-1/4" PVC conduit between the generator and the building. Run your wire through the conduit. That way if you get a bigger generator in the future, you can run bigger wire. If you are having to buy the UF 10/3 wire this time, by using the conduit you can use THHWN or any common wire with a W in the designation. The UF 10/3 cable would cost about $1.50/ft., or about $135.00 for 90 ft. of wire which includes enough to come up out of the ground to the generator and cabin entry. The individual wire/conduit combination is going to be very close in price to the UF. 9 sticks (90') of conduit would cost about $34.00 for 1-1/4", plus two 90* sweeps at $3.97 each. The THHW wire (180 ft. of black and 90 ft. of green) would cost about $80.00 (+ $0.30/ft.), so the total cost should be about $122.00.

Bury the conduit about three feet deep for safety. Rent a trencher to make the job go easier.

Don't be intimidated about getting the wire through the conduit. After the conduit is assembled, tie a scrap of paper towel large enough to be sucked through the conduit to a string and **** it through with a vacuum cleaner - a shop vac works well. Use the string to pull a small (1/4") rope through the conduit and use the rope to pull the wire. The wire will pull very easily in the large conduit. BE SURE TO BEVEL THEINSIDE OF EACH CONDUIT JOINT TO ELIMINATE THE SHARP STEP THAT MIGHT SNAG THE WIRES AND MAKE IT HARDER TO PULL THEM. I use a sharp knife to peel off the sharp corner, but you can buy a tool for this at HD for less than $10.00.

 

[Tech Guy]

Dont forget to pull a second string in with the wire for future.

 

[Aceman]

BE SURE TO BEVEL THEINSIDE OF EACH CONDUIT JOINT TO ELIMINATE THE SHARP STEP THAT MIGHT SNAG THE WIRES AND MAKE IT HARDER TO PULL THEM. I use a sharp knife to peel off the sharp corner, but you can buy a tool for this at HD for less than $10.00.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I've installed tens of thousands of feet of pvc in all sizes, and done pulls up to 2500'. I've never beveled pvc. EVER. The only time you have a "step" in conduit is when you transition to schedule 80 in the middle of a schedule 40 pipe run, usually for the stub ups out of the ground where it may be exposed to physical damage. And even that doesn't get beveled.

So do you really believe a guy with only 7 or so joints in his pipe is going to have a problem?

approximately 75' away from the main camp with a buried cable.

 

[trainer]

I'll probably look for a direct- burial type of cable for this application. 99.9% of the time it'll be dead anyway since the generator will only be running lights and a few electronics.

It will be run so infrequently that I'm looking into a propane or dual fuel conversion to get away from the problems with storing gasoline.

If I cant get direct burial for a decent price, then I'll use black polyethelyene (not pex) water pipe as a conduit. It's very inexpensive and no elbows are neeeded.

 

[Provincial]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I've installed tens of thousands of feet of pvc in all sizes, and done pulls up to 2500'. I've never beveled pvc. EVER. The only time you have a "step" in conduit is when you transition to schedule 80 in the middle of a schedule 40 pipe run, usually for the stub ups out of the ground where it may be exposed to physical damage. And even that doesn't get beveled.

So do you really believe a guy with only 7 or so joints in his pipe is going to have a problem?

Experience. I've had fish tapes snag on the "step" especially when going around corners. I always try to pull the wire into the bell end, so the fish tape is inserted toward the step. I've had to reverse the direction of pull in order to get the fish tape through. I think a coupling on the end of a sweep is the most common hang-up point.

I can't imagine anyone not running into this situation, unless you have some sort of "professional" equipment that slips over the step easily.

If the sharp edge will snag your fish tape, it will abrade the insulation on the wire you pull. You'll never know about the abrasion unless the wire fails, and even then you'll probably blame it on bad wire.

 

[ishiboo]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I've installed tens of thousands of feet of pvc in all sizes, and done pulls up to 2500'. I've never beveled pvc. EVER. The only time you have a "step" in conduit is when you transition to schedule 80 in the middle of a schedule 40 pipe run, usually for the stub ups out of the ground where it may be exposed to physical damage. And even that doesn't get beveled.

So do you really believe a guy with only 7 or so joints in his pipe is going to have a problem?

I think "deburring" is a better way to communicate what he suggested, rather than "beveling". If you cut your PVC with a sawzall, depending on the teeth it may make it easier to debur it to prevent snagging/etc.

It may not be an issue, but if you're using a vacuum to **** a fishline through it could very well be the difference between success or failure.

I use a fine metal blade when I have to use the sawzall, and now I have a PVC cutter that does up to 2" so it's not really an issue, but you'll never regret deburring conduit (metal of course it's practically a necessity)

 

[Aceman]

Experience. I've had fish tapes snag on the "step" especially when going around corners. I always try to pull the wire into the bell end, so the fish tape is inserted toward the step. I've had to reverse the direction of pull in order to get the fish tape through. I think a coupling on the end of a sweep is the most common hang-up point..

Just because your fishtape hangs up between joints doesn't mean the wire will be nicked. It just means you have a gap between conduit ends that your fishtape is catching.

Bottom line, how could there be a "step" in the conduit if the internal diameter is all the same?

I can't imagine anyone not running into this situation, unless you have some sort of "professional" equipment that slips over the step easily..

I have ran into it, many times. I either tweak the end of the fishtape, grab a different fishtape(one with a flexible leader works well), or use a vacuum.

If the sharp edge will snag your fish tape, it will abrade the insulation on the wire you pull. You'll never know about the abrasion unless the wire fails, and even then you'll probably blame it on bad wire.

Again, unless you change from sch. 40 to 80 in the middle of the run, there is no step. Only a gap between joints. Saying the wire will get nicked crossing a wide joint is a stretch to say the least.

I haven't had a wire pull blow up yet due to "steps" from a lack beveling at the joints.

If you want to prove me wrong, post up some manufacturer instructions that state beveling is required....

Until then, I'm out. This thread is sidetracked enough...

 

[SGKent]

since it is a cabin and we have critters in the woods chewing through the ground, maybe in conduit would be better than direct burial.